Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

So it hasn't actually happened in the last few pages then?

Another one cleared up.

This Internet lark is easy

 

Fuck me.  Your English teacher must have been rubbish or you’re as dumb as a rock.  Or both. 

[Arniepie]

32 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

I realise this is highly anecdotal and very specific, but the following may be illustrative of the point being made above.

 

My aunt lives in a the village/suburb in the North West, votes conservative, reads traditional media (the mail), and is a home owner. She volunteers and is a number of local community arts groups, I get on well with her on an interpersonal basis regardless of any political disagreements which obviously generally avoided.

 

I live in London, virtually all of my friends in the millue down here (predictably/tediously) either vote for the Labour Party, Lib Dems and profess to holding very socially liberal views, I rent, get virtually all of my news from online sources, a decent chunk of my friends are mortgage holders, but that is due to family members giving them significant amounts of money for a deposit, of those from less well off backgrounds/colleges at work they virtually all rent or live with their parents.

 

My aunt gets visibly annoyed with the younger generation in our family (most of whom are now in their early 30's) because most of them haven't had children (of course a lot of older people want to have grand children as they bring great joy to their lives and it feels like a continuation of their legacy), which she sees as a active choice. On speaking with my sibilings and cousins it's fairly obvious most this relates to economics and housing (i.e. that these costs- whether getting together a deposit or keeping rental payments going- are prohibitive for people to settling down getting married and starting to have children). The newspaper she reads reinforces (siloisation) this view that it is considerable amount of this is due to 'avocado on toast' type profligacy, while I see a generation that are a lot more tighter with their finances that the previous one (though this again is a product of siloisation as I know many older people went through extremely straightened times especially due to times or high unemployment of significant inflationary periods). She has given money to her kids, and I get the impression feels irritated that they haven't been able to achieve and do more.

 

Outwith the familial connection the liklihood of either one of us coming across people (certainly enough to have meaningful conversations) who are in either situation is pretty remote.

 

Perhaps I'm putting too much into this, but it would be applicable for a significant number of other older members of my family and I suspect on conversations with friends is somewhat representative of a broader trend.

 

 

Is there a middle ground?

A place for consensus?

I'm not so sure..we are probally as divided now as we have ever been.Brexit exposed some very deep wounds which are going to take some time to heal

I think in many respects we are like 2 different countries. 

Reece mogg was referenced yesterday, apparently he has a 20,000 seat majority.

Could you imagine him getting anything neat that in the likes of Liverpool or Manchester?

[Arniepie]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Fuck me.  Your English teacher must have been rubbish or you’re as dumb as a rock.  Or both. 

Charming

As dumb as a rock.

What an interesting comparison. 

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Arniepie said:

Charming

As dumb as a rock.

What an interesting comparison. 

Metaphor 

[Rico1304]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Metaphor 

Ha ha I leave it up but I think it may be a simile!  That’ll teach me. 

[Arniepie]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Metaphor 

Course it is.

I'm just off to out lefty someone.

 

[Moctezuma]

28 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I find it weird that a lot of people I know on the left, and it’s evidenced on here, think that voting Labour makes them a better person than someone voting any other way.  That and the constant desire to ‘out Lefty’ one another.   It’s very funny to watch as evidence by the last couple of pages.  

Agreed, people are solely voting on the basis of their own economic desires/heuristic which with they view society. The vast bulk of those who vote for the Conservative Party think that they are doing so for the betterment of the country as a whole not solely because it benefits them, you have to be fairly deeply into the weeds to see that a decent chunk of the current policy platform is doing damage to certain cohorts of the population.

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Ha ha I leave it up but I think it may be a simile!  That’ll teach me. 

Thought that said 'smilie' then. Fucking shit myself. 

[Rico1304]

Just now, Moctezuma said:

Agreed, people are solely voting on the basis of their own economic desires/heuristic which with they view society. The vast bulk of those who vote for the Conservative Party think that they are doing so for the betterment of the country as a whole not solely because it benefits them, you have to be fairly deeply into the weeds to see that a decent chunk of the current policy platform is doing damage to certain cohorts of the population.

I’ve always been completely transparent in that I voted Tory in the past because it suited me and my family.  Selfish, but to be honest I couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks.  
 

I got shit because I didn’t care about people I don’t know or would never know.  But then in other threads you’ve got left leaning posters writing off whole groups of people. These are the ones I’m supposed to care about and sacrifice for?  

[Moctezuma]

20 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Is there a middle ground?

A place for consensus?

I'm not so sure..we are probally as divided now as we have ever been.Brexit exposed some very deep wounds which are going to take some time to heal

I think in many respects we are like 2 different countries. 

Reece mogg was referenced yesterday, apparently he has a 20,000 seat majority.

Could you imagine him getting anything neat that in the likes of Liverpool or Manchester?

I think there is a chance for a middle ground especially when talking to people on a one to one basis, I think recently there was even Yougov polling indicating that a majority of people thought house prices need to stabilize/reduce (which is indicating the older generation who are the predominant beneficiaries of that massive house price inflation are starting to realise it's damaging) they also released some polling about concerns around climate change which again showed general support for government action to reduce emissions.

 

The issue we have is that the main political parties are at this point highly captured by the donors (an their media functionaries) who resolutely don't want a lot of the things the public want to happen (with the Conservatives having this to a greater degree than the other two- in part because of them being seen as a winning ticket due to the nations demography, asset holding and spatial distribution).

 

The country has always had major political differences, it just tends to become more heighted during the advent of new media platforms and when economic conditions are poorer.

[Arniepie]

4 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

I think there is a chance for a middle ground especially when talking to people on a one to one basis, I think recently there was even Yougov polling indicating that a majority of people thought house prices need to stabilize/reduce (which is indicating the older generation who are the predominant beneficiaries of that massive house price inflation are starting to realise it's damaging) they also released some polling about concerns around climate change which again showed general support for government action to reduce emissions.

 

The issue we have is that the main political parties are at this point highly captured by the donors (an their media functionaries) who resolutely don't want a lot of the things the public want to happen (with the Conservatives having this to a greater degree than the other two- in part because of them being seen as a winning ticket due to the nations demography, asset holding and spatial distribution).

 

The country has always had major political differences, it just tends to become more heighted during the advent of new media platforms and when economic conditions are poorer.

I also think it's in their own interests to have a divided society..its that old classic right divide and rule tactic

I also think that in this social network era the role of the media is massively ignored.

They play a crucial role in political attitudes country wide.We have seen that in particular with the subject of this thread

 

[Moctezuma]

11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I’ve always been completely transparent in that I voted Tory in the past because it suited me and my family.  Selfish, but to be honest I couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks.  
 

I got shit because I didn’t care about people I don’t know or would never know.  But then in other threads you’ve got left leaning posters writing off whole groups of people. These are the ones I’m supposed to care about and sacrifice for?  

I think this is interesting, with the mass denigration/removal of the social safety nets in the UK and the significant reduction in social mobility I do wonder if this creates reinforcing frameworks to voting, i.e. that you have a greater distances to fall if you or your family have a malady/exogenous shock effect them so voting to protect that position become more attractive even if that in turn potentially increases the gap that is trying to be avoided.

 

Regarding the writing off of large sections of the population I think all sides of politics have been doing that to a greater or lesser extent for some time.

[Moctezuma]

12 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I also think it's in their own interests to have a divided society..its that old classic right divide and rule tactic

I also think that in this social network era the role of the media is massively ignored.

 They play a crucial role in political attitudes country wide.We have seen that in particular with the subject of this thread

 

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership, tax haven asset holding and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

Corbyn wanted free Broadband, he also wanted to nationalise BT. BT's biggest shareholder is a gentleman called Patrick Drahi who is a French–Portuguese–Israeli billionaire, businessman telecoms, mass media magnate. 

 

 

[Arniepie]

4 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership, tax haven asset holding and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

The one thing I'll never understand is the difference in those 2 elections. 

Even thought he was defeated in 2017 there was a massive amount of optimism around..maybe there was another way.

Yet 2 years later he was unelectable.

Without a doubt he is flawed and maybe wouldn't have made a great pm,but there is not a doubt in my mind that 2 years of relentless headlines took their toll

(Which Ties in with that banta merchant broadcaster..which means he is fair game)

I also think it's had a massive impact on the direction of the current Labour Party, policy wise. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

The one thing I'll never understand is the difference in those 2 elections. 

Even thought he was defeated in 2017 there was a massive amount of optimism around..maybe there was another way.

Yet 2 years later he was unelectable.

Without a doubt he is flawed and maybe wouldn't have made a great pm,but there is not a doubt in my mind that 2 years of relentless headlines took their toll

(Which Ties in with that banta merchant broadcaster..which means he is fair game)

I also think it's had a massive impact on the direction of the current Labour Party, policy wise. 

I think Brexit was the biggest factor in those two years. Labour clearly didn’t have a handle on those whole thing, and like always with Labour it was pulling in two directions. He tried to sit on the fence regarding the second referendum and the way forward and it backfired with the electorate in a big way. I’d say that was even bigger than the headlines. Those headlines would have hurt but they hurt before too. 

[Arniepie]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think Brexit was the biggest factor in those two years. Labour clearly didn’t have a handle on those whole thing, and like always with Labour it was pulling in two directions. He tried to sit on the fence regarding the second referendum and the way forward and it backfired with the electorate in a big way. I’d say that was even bigger than the headlines. Those headlines would have hurt but they hurt before too. 

Without a doubt brexit was a huge factor, but I genuinely think they were in a no win situation. 

Get fully behind leave and they would have lost the red wall anyway.

I think the big difference was leave voters would have still voted tory,whereas the red wall were ready to get behind johnson (that worked out well)

I just think there is no way 2 years of almost non stop headlines would not have had an impact.

There are people out there who genuinely think he is some sort of nazi.

A pacifist one obviously. 

It's all history now anyway but that 2017 was definitely one of those sliding doors moments.

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Without a doubt brexit was a huge factor, but I genuinely think they were in a no win situation. 

Get fully behind leave and they would have lost the red wall anyway.

I think the big difference was leave voters would have still voted tory,whereas the red wall were ready to get behind johnson (that worked out well)

I just think there is no way 2 years of almost non stop headlines would not have had an impact.

There are people out there who genuinely think he is some sort of nazi.

A pacifist one obviously. 

It's all history now anyway but that 2017 was definitely one of those sliding doors moments.

I think, with hindsight being 20/20, coming out as 'referendum is over, nation decided to leave, trust us to get the best deal' was the best approach, but I think he was just done and dusted and should have stepped down in 2017. There was no way he was winning this last election. No doubt there was an orchestrated campaign against him. Starmer will face some of that closer to the election. I think the truth is that, if people want to win an election, they have to be prepared for a Labour leader to cosy up to powerful media types and business types to get it done. Even then, it's not all that likely. That said, I hope Starmer can get a coalition going, we need these Tories gone.

[Arniepie]

11 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think, with hindsight being 20/20, coming out as 'referendum is over, nation decided to leave, trust us to get the best deal' was the best approach, but I think he was just done and dusted and should have stepped down in 2017. There was no way he was winning this last election. No doubt there was an orchestrated campaign against him. Starmer will face some of that closer to the election. I think the truth is that, if people want to win an election, they have to be prepared for a Labour leader to cosy up to powerful media types and business types to get it done. Even then, it's not all that likely. That said, I hope Starmer can get a coalition going, we need these Tories gone.

I think  part of his appeal in 2017 was that he wasn't the type of politician to go kiss arsing the likes of murdoch tbh

 

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I think  part of his appeal in 2017 was that he wasn't the type of politician to go kiss arsing the likes of murdoch tbh

 

 

When did Starmer kiss Murdoch's arse? Or Miliband?

[Numero Veinticinco]

6 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I think  part of his appeal in 2017 was that he wasn't the type of politician to go kiss arsing the likes of murdoch tbh

 

Yet still lost, and wasn't even close to getting a majority. May was closer to getting a majority than Corbyn was to getting a chance at making a coalition. 

[Arniepie]

10 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

When did Starmer kiss Murdoch's arse? Or Miliband?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/03/merseyside-mps-outraged-at-keir-starmer-writing-article-for-the-sun

[Arniepie]

9 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yet still lost, and wasn't even close to getting a majority. May was closer to getting a majority than Corbyn was to getting a chance at making a coalition. 

I thought it would have gone either way?

[Strontium]

22 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/03/merseyside-mps-outraged-at-keir-starmer-writing-article-for-the-sun

 

The bar for kissing arse is obviously set very low these days.

[Captain Willard]

3 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

I find it weird that a lot of people I know on the left, and it’s evidenced on here, think that voting Labour makes them a better person than someone voting any other way.  That and the constant desire to ‘out Lefty’ one another.   It’s very funny to watch as evidence by the last couple of pages.  

I think its fair to say that people on the left think they occupy the moral high ground in politics despite the 75 million people who died in the 20th century as a direct result of 'socialist/communist' policies. Although the common retort would be to say these deaths were not the result of 'authentic' socialist/communist policies, scratch the surface and it is not hard to find current prominent left wing UK politicians who don't see any problem at all with this historical legacy of genocide. Diane Abbot saying openly and without shame on TV that Mao did "more good than harm" (despite the 50m deaths), McDonnell bringing a copy of Mao's red book into the Commons as a joke, Seamus Milne (chief aide to Corbyn) defending Stalinism and saying the deaths under the Terror were exaggerated. Substitute Hitler for Mao/Stalin in any of those 3 episodes and you get a sense of how this looks to the other side. 

 

This unearned moral superiority in turn gives the hard left the license to dehumanize the opposition as vermin, Tory Scum,  etc, openly fantasise about committing violence against prominent Uk politicians and generally behave as if they were dealing with a sub human species not just normal every day people who just happen to have a different view about politics. All under the banner of being morally superior to the Tories.