Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Bjornebye]

25 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

3 pints at lunch and the next thing you know I’m on Granada reports telling the North West Ten Hag is the new Fergie!

Superb hahaha

[Moctezuma]

11 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

I’m not going to spotlight people by quoting their posts but trawl through the tory related threads and there’s plenty of talk about violence against current politicians. It seems to be that if you occupy the moral high ground, you can say anything you want about your opponents. Look at the McDonnell lynching quote. 
 

Activists who are out campaigning in the current local elections are being sent security advice from Tory central office. This has never happened before. I worry every time Mrs Willard goes out. I never used to.

 

The whole debate about politics in this country is becoming toxic and violent and this place reflects that. 

 

I think a huge amount of this is due to social/traditional media siloisation with people being in echo chambers and the fact that the actual geographical differential distribution of the supporters of the respective parties having intensified (so people aren't meeting others with different points of view to the same extent any more to enable greater humanisation). Social media clicks being driven by a heightening of peoples anger/ annoyance is also not helping.

 

I reckon part of it is also worsening economic conditions, caused predominantly by global supply chain issues, pandemic and inflation, with the flagrant inter generational and economic class warfare that is being enacted by the government as they pander to their electoral base not helping on that front. You can't keep immiserating peoples lives and think that it will not result in some degree of increased animosity. Though I think some of the behavior during the pandemic by the leaders of the current regime will also have created some extremely raw nerves and that is also probably a fairly significant motivator alongside the associated psychological issues from lockdowns and lived experiences.

 

One other element is a feeling of a lack of democratic representation, for example if you are a young person in an urban setting where you and the vast bulk of your friends are renting and having a hard time of it economically while having socially liberal attitudes and your not coming into contact with anyone who is explicitly conservative with the exception of a perhaps a few older family members then seeing the Conservatives come in with crushing electoral victories every election starts to feel a bit dishearting/discombobulating. In part this is because the media virtually never talk about the electoral terrain of the country which is so in favour of the Conservatives currently as to basically make it 5-0 prior to kick off. I know a lot of this results in a deep apathy, but for some it will become 'motivational'.

 

On the other hand if you are an older home owner who in a semi rural/village setting whose only experience of those with a greater propensity to vote for Labour/the greens is when your niece/nephew is calling you racist for using slightly outmoded language then you too will probably end up getting pretty annoyed.

 

These are obviously gross over simplifications but I think the genuine reduced lack of contact is having a substantial effect with regards empathy understanding and working out how people have arrived at where they are.

 

[Creator Supreme]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

3 pints at lunch and the next thing you know I’m on Granada reports telling the North West Ten Hag is the new Fergie!

Oh please do this Rico!

[Moctezuma]

I realise this is highly anecdotal and very specific, but the following may be illustrative of the point being made above.

 

My aunt lives in a the village/suburb in the North West, votes conservative, reads traditional media (the mail), and is a home owner. She volunteers and is a number of local community arts groups, I get on well with her on an interpersonal basis regardless of any political disagreements which obviously generally avoided.

 

I live in London, virtually all of my friends in the millue down here (predictably/tediously) either vote for the Labour Party, Lib Dems and profess to holding very socially liberal views, I rent, get virtually all of my news from online sources, a decent chunk of my friends are mortgage holders, but that is due to family members giving them significant amounts of money for a deposit, of those from less well off backgrounds/colleges at work they virtually all rent or live with their parents.

 

My aunt gets visibly annoyed with the younger generation in our family (most of whom are now in their early 30's) because most of them haven't had children (of course a lot of older people want to have grand children as they bring great joy to their lives and it feels like a continuation of their legacy), which she sees as a active choice. On speaking with my sibilings and cousins it's fairly obvious most this relates to economics and housing (i.e. that these costs- whether getting together a deposit or keeping rental payments going- are prohibitive for people to settling down getting married and starting to have children). The newspaper she reads reinforces (siloisation) this view that it is considerable amount of this is due to 'avocado on toast' type profligacy, while I see a generation that are a lot more tighter with their finances that the previous one (though this again is a product of siloisation as I know many older people went through extremely straightened times especially due to times or high unemployment of significant inflationary periods). She has given money to her kids, and I get the impression feels irritated that they haven't been able to achieve and do more.

 

Outwith the familial connection the liklihood of either one of us coming across people (certainly enough to have meaningful conversations) who are in either situation is pretty remote.

 

Perhaps I'm putting too much into this, but it would be applicable for a significant number of other older members of my family and I suspect on conversations with friends is somewhat representative of a broader trend.

 

 

[Rico1304]

11 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

Oh please do this Rico!

I did it yesterday.  I’m the fat grey bloke interviewed on St Ann’s Walk. 

[Rico1304]

6 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

I realise this is highly anecdotal and very specific, but the following may be illustrative of the point being made above.

 

My aunt lives in a the village/suburb in the North West, votes conservative, reads traditional media (the mail), and is a home owner. She volunteers and is a number of local community arts groups, I get on well with her on an interpersonal basis regardless of any political disagreements which obviously generally avoided.

 

I live in London, virtually all of my friends in the millue down here (predictably/tediously) either vote for the Labour Party, Lib Dems and profess to holding very socially liberal views, I rent, get virtually all of my news from online sources, a decent chunk of my friends are mortgage holders, but that is due to family members giving them significant amounts of money for a deposit, of those from less well off backgrounds/colleges at work they virtually all rent or live with their parents.

 

My aunt gets visibly annoyed with the younger generation in our family (most of whom are now in their early 30's) because most of them haven't had children (of course a lot of older people want to have grand children as they bring great joy to their lives and it feels like a continuation of their legacy), which she sees as a active choice. On speaking with my sibilings and cousins it's fairly obvious most this relates to economics and housing (i.e. that these costs- whether getting together a deposit or keeping rental payments going- are prohibitive for people to settling down getting married and starting to have children). The newspaper she reads reinforces (siloisation) this view that it is considerable amount of this is due to 'avocado on toast' type profligacy, while I see a generation that are a lot more tighter with their finances that the previous one (though this again is a product of siloisation as I know many older people went through extremely straightened times especially due to times or high unemployment of significant inflationary periods). She has given money to her kids, and I get the impression feels irritated that they haven't been able to achieve and do more.

 

Outwith the familial connection the liklihood of either one of us coming across people (certainly enough to have meaningful conversations) who are in either situation is pretty remote.

 

Perhaps I'm putting too much into this, but it would be applicable for a significant number of other older members of my family and I suspect on conversations with friends is somewhat representative of a broader trend.

 

 

I find it weird that a lot of people I know on the left, and it’s evidenced on here, think that voting Labour makes them a better person than someone voting any other way.  That and the constant desire to ‘out Lefty’ one another.   It’s very funny to watch as evidence by the last couple of pages.  

[Arniepie]

9 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I find it weird that a lot of people I know on the left, and it’s evidenced on here, think that voting Labour makes them a better person than someone voting any other way.  That and the constant desire to ‘out Lefty’ one another.   It’s very funny to watch as evidence by the last couple of pages.  

It would be hilarious if it actually happened. 

Those long winter nights must just  fly bye.

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

It would be hilarious if it actually happened. 

Those long winter nights must just  fly bye.

Bye, see you soon.  
 

Have you been around here long? I can’t keep up.  But it’s something that’s been happening on here for fucking years.  We’ve had posters who wouldn’t drink with a Tory all whilst working for an investment bank and another who was supposedly the biggest communist the world has seen whilst working for the fucking Queen!  Then there’s the ‘hang them from the lamppost’ brigade.  

[Arniepie]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Bye, see you soon.  
 

Have you been around here long? I can’t keep up.  But it’s something that’s been happening on here for fucking years.  We’ve had posters who wouldn’t drink with a Tory all whilst working for an investment bank and another who was supposedly the biggest communist the world has seen whilst working for the fucking Queen!  Then there’s the ‘hang them from the lamppost’ brigade.  

So it hasn't actually happened in the last few pages then?

Another one cleared up.

This Internet lark is easy

 

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

So it hasn't actually happened in the last few pages then?

Another one cleared up.

This Internet lark is easy

 

Fuck me.  Your English teacher must have been rubbish or you’re as dumb as a rock.  Or both. 

[Arniepie]

32 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

I realise this is highly anecdotal and very specific, but the following may be illustrative of the point being made above.

 

My aunt lives in a the village/suburb in the North West, votes conservative, reads traditional media (the mail), and is a home owner. She volunteers and is a number of local community arts groups, I get on well with her on an interpersonal basis regardless of any political disagreements which obviously generally avoided.

 

I live in London, virtually all of my friends in the millue down here (predictably/tediously) either vote for the Labour Party, Lib Dems and profess to holding very socially liberal views, I rent, get virtually all of my news from online sources, a decent chunk of my friends are mortgage holders, but that is due to family members giving them significant amounts of money for a deposit, of those from less well off backgrounds/colleges at work they virtually all rent or live with their parents.

 

My aunt gets visibly annoyed with the younger generation in our family (most of whom are now in their early 30's) because most of them haven't had children (of course a lot of older people want to have grand children as they bring great joy to their lives and it feels like a continuation of their legacy), which she sees as a active choice. On speaking with my sibilings and cousins it's fairly obvious most this relates to economics and housing (i.e. that these costs- whether getting together a deposit or keeping rental payments going- are prohibitive for people to settling down getting married and starting to have children). The newspaper she reads reinforces (siloisation) this view that it is considerable amount of this is due to 'avocado on toast' type profligacy, while I see a generation that are a lot more tighter with their finances that the previous one (though this again is a product of siloisation as I know many older people went through extremely straightened times especially due to times or high unemployment of significant inflationary periods). She has given money to her kids, and I get the impression feels irritated that they haven't been able to achieve and do more.

 

Outwith the familial connection the liklihood of either one of us coming across people (certainly enough to have meaningful conversations) who are in either situation is pretty remote.

 

Perhaps I'm putting too much into this, but it would be applicable for a significant number of other older members of my family and I suspect on conversations with friends is somewhat representative of a broader trend.

 

 

Is there a middle ground?

A place for consensus?

I'm not so sure..we are probally as divided now as we have ever been.Brexit exposed some very deep wounds which are going to take some time to heal

I think in many respects we are like 2 different countries. 

Reece mogg was referenced yesterday, apparently he has a 20,000 seat majority.

Could you imagine him getting anything neat that in the likes of Liverpool or Manchester?

[Arniepie]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Fuck me.  Your English teacher must have been rubbish or you’re as dumb as a rock.  Or both. 

Charming

As dumb as a rock.

What an interesting comparison. 

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Arniepie said:

Charming

As dumb as a rock.

What an interesting comparison. 

Metaphor 

[Rico1304]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Metaphor 

Ha ha I leave it up but I think it may be a simile!  That’ll teach me. 

[Arniepie]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Metaphor 

Course it is.

I'm just off to out lefty someone.

 

[Moctezuma]

28 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I find it weird that a lot of people I know on the left, and it’s evidenced on here, think that voting Labour makes them a better person than someone voting any other way.  That and the constant desire to ‘out Lefty’ one another.   It’s very funny to watch as evidence by the last couple of pages.  

Agreed, people are solely voting on the basis of their own economic desires/heuristic which with they view society. The vast bulk of those who vote for the Conservative Party think that they are doing so for the betterment of the country as a whole not solely because it benefits them, you have to be fairly deeply into the weeds to see that a decent chunk of the current policy platform is doing damage to certain cohorts of the population.

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Ha ha I leave it up but I think it may be a simile!  That’ll teach me. 

Thought that said 'smilie' then. Fucking shit myself. 

[Rico1304]

Just now, Moctezuma said:

Agreed, people are solely voting on the basis of their own economic desires/heuristic which with they view society. The vast bulk of those who vote for the Conservative Party think that they are doing so for the betterment of the country as a whole not solely because it benefits them, you have to be fairly deeply into the weeds to see that a decent chunk of the current policy platform is doing damage to certain cohorts of the population.

I’ve always been completely transparent in that I voted Tory in the past because it suited me and my family.  Selfish, but to be honest I couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks.  
 

I got shit because I didn’t care about people I don’t know or would never know.  But then in other threads you’ve got left leaning posters writing off whole groups of people. These are the ones I’m supposed to care about and sacrifice for?  

[Moctezuma]

20 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Is there a middle ground?

A place for consensus?

I'm not so sure..we are probally as divided now as we have ever been.Brexit exposed some very deep wounds which are going to take some time to heal

I think in many respects we are like 2 different countries. 

Reece mogg was referenced yesterday, apparently he has a 20,000 seat majority.

Could you imagine him getting anything neat that in the likes of Liverpool or Manchester?

I think there is a chance for a middle ground especially when talking to people on a one to one basis, I think recently there was even Yougov polling indicating that a majority of people thought house prices need to stabilize/reduce (which is indicating the older generation who are the predominant beneficiaries of that massive house price inflation are starting to realise it's damaging) they also released some polling about concerns around climate change which again showed general support for government action to reduce emissions.

 

The issue we have is that the main political parties are at this point highly captured by the donors (an their media functionaries) who resolutely don't want a lot of the things the public want to happen (with the Conservatives having this to a greater degree than the other two- in part because of them being seen as a winning ticket due to the nations demography, asset holding and spatial distribution).

 

The country has always had major political differences, it just tends to become more heighted during the advent of new media platforms and when economic conditions are poorer.

[Arniepie]

4 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

I think there is a chance for a middle ground especially when talking to people on a one to one basis, I think recently there was even Yougov polling indicating that a majority of people thought house prices need to stabilize/reduce (which is indicating the older generation who are the predominant beneficiaries of that massive house price inflation are starting to realise it's damaging) they also released some polling about concerns around climate change which again showed general support for government action to reduce emissions.

 

The issue we have is that the main political parties are at this point highly captured by the donors (an their media functionaries) who resolutely don't want a lot of the things the public want to happen (with the Conservatives having this to a greater degree than the other two- in part because of them being seen as a winning ticket due to the nations demography, asset holding and spatial distribution).

 

The country has always had major political differences, it just tends to become more heighted during the advent of new media platforms and when economic conditions are poorer.

I also think it's in their own interests to have a divided society..its that old classic right divide and rule tactic

I also think that in this social network era the role of the media is massively ignored.

They play a crucial role in political attitudes country wide.We have seen that in particular with the subject of this thread

 

[Moctezuma]

11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I’ve always been completely transparent in that I voted Tory in the past because it suited me and my family.  Selfish, but to be honest I couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks.  
 

I got shit because I didn’t care about people I don’t know or would never know.  But then in other threads you’ve got left leaning posters writing off whole groups of people. These are the ones I’m supposed to care about and sacrifice for?  

I think this is interesting, with the mass denigration/removal of the social safety nets in the UK and the significant reduction in social mobility I do wonder if this creates reinforcing frameworks to voting, i.e. that you have a greater distances to fall if you or your family have a malady/exogenous shock effect them so voting to protect that position become more attractive even if that in turn potentially increases the gap that is trying to be avoided.

 

Regarding the writing off of large sections of the population I think all sides of politics have been doing that to a greater or lesser extent for some time.

[Moctezuma]

12 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I also think it's in their own interests to have a divided society..its that old classic right divide and rule tactic

I also think that in this social network era the role of the media is massively ignored.

 They play a crucial role in political attitudes country wide.We have seen that in particular with the subject of this thread

 

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership, tax haven asset holding and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

Corbyn wanted free Broadband, he also wanted to nationalise BT. BT's biggest shareholder is a gentleman called Patrick Drahi who is a French–Portuguese–Israeli billionaire, businessman telecoms, mass media magnate. 

 

 

[Arniepie]

4 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

Agree with all of this.

 

In particular that last point is particularly true as Corbyn was seen as utterly beyond the pale and someone to be absolutely annihilated (which they eventually got to with the Anti-semitism discourse and Scripal/'not good for the defense of the realm' conflation, having previously attempted- sexism, racism, foreign agent and a plethora of other smears), mainly because he probably would have increased the taxes slightly* on capital gains, second/multiple home ownership, tax haven asset holding and inheritance, which would have hit the upper echelons of the media class in the pocket.

 

A lot of Britain's structural problems could be sorted out fairly effectively if the media and donors were put on mute for a couple of years.

 

*in the context of either Britain's past or other European democracies

The one thing I'll never understand is the difference in those 2 elections. 

Even thought he was defeated in 2017 there was a massive amount of optimism around..maybe there was another way.

Yet 2 years later he was unelectable.

Without a doubt he is flawed and maybe wouldn't have made a great pm,but there is not a doubt in my mind that 2 years of relentless headlines took their toll

(Which Ties in with that banta merchant broadcaster..which means he is fair game)

I also think it's had a massive impact on the direction of the current Labour Party, policy wise. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

The one thing I'll never understand is the difference in those 2 elections. 

Even thought he was defeated in 2017 there was a massive amount of optimism around..maybe there was another way.

Yet 2 years later he was unelectable.

Without a doubt he is flawed and maybe wouldn't have made a great pm,but there is not a doubt in my mind that 2 years of relentless headlines took their toll

(Which Ties in with that banta merchant broadcaster..which means he is fair game)

I also think it's had a massive impact on the direction of the current Labour Party, policy wise. 

I think Brexit was the biggest factor in those two years. Labour clearly didn’t have a handle on those whole thing, and like always with Labour it was pulling in two directions. He tried to sit on the fence regarding the second referendum and the way forward and it backfired with the electorate in a big way. I’d say that was even bigger than the headlines. Those headlines would have hurt but they hurt before too.