Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

Simple question. Personally I think he's been a disaster so far and I want shut now. I respect people who think he's doing a good job and realise he's hamstrung to a certain extent by a very hostile press and also his own MPs but I don't see him ever getting close to winning an election so he's got to go for me. He might have the backing and resonate with the Labour membership but I don't think that translates to Labor voters. Things are about to get a lot worse than they are now under that cunt Johnson and we desperately need someone to step up and take him on and I don't think Corbyn with McDonnell and Dianne fucking Abbot as his generals can do that.

 

Cameron couldn't convince Tory voters to vote the way he wanted and ultimately that cost him his job. Corbyn, whether you think he made a decent attempt at convincing Labour voters to stay or not ( and for me it was a half arsed attempt ), couldn't convince enough Labour voters to vote remain either as evidenced by the scores of Labour heartlands that voted to leave. That's not just a failure from him but he's the leader and he carries the can. He did an interview a couple of days before the referendum saying there could be no upper limit on the freedom of movement of people and I just cringed watching it. Whether that is true or not don't fucking say it! I realise that's part of the appeal, that he speaks his mind and won't play games, but on an issue as important as this you need to do whatever you can to win and I don't think he's ruthless and pragmatic enough to compromise

 

So like I said, simple question; do you think he should stay or go? And if it's go then who replaces him?

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

A further point is that when I signed up as a Labour member immediately after the general election he hadn't even been nominated.

 

Once he had he sort of got my vote by default. There are Tories less right wing than Liz Kendall so she wasn't getting it. Cooper is just your classic neoliberal shill and I couldn't vote for her either. Burnham was going to get my vote but after he abstained from voting against the welfare bill he could fuck off. That was a shockingly bad move by him.

 

So I voted Corbyn but I think I'm on record on here at the time saying that I didn't think he was up to much and wouldn't come anywhere near winning an election. But my hope was, and I know a lot of other people who said the same, that he'd bring the national ' conversation ' back from the right and make genuine left wing politics more appealing and also maybe start a bit of an SNP anti austerity movement that could really take off.

 

The country has just voted in favour of Johnson, Gove and Farage. If anything it's getting more and more right wing since he's taken over ( not that I'm blaming him solely for that, far from it ) and something drastic needs to happen to arrest that. If that means someone a bit more centrist taking over from him then so be it. I don't think we can afford to wait around any longer, the future is looking scary today and not just because of being taken out of the EU but because of the people who will now be left in charge. I dread to think what will happen to workers rights and the human rights act will almost certainly be repealed like they have wanted.

 

Also, I'm still really pissed and hungover from last night so apologies if some of that doesn't make sense or is rambling.

[Anubis 13,481]

Stay for me.

 

You change leader now and you effectively cede the electoral process to the media. You do that and you no longer have an electoral process worth participating in because you've handed the decision making to the media.

 

Corbyn has been in the job less than a year. In that time his numbers have steadily increased as more people have looked beyond the ridiculous criticisms against him and started listening to the man himself.

 

He's been hamstrung in who he can pick for his front bench, but John McDonell has shown himself to be a pretty savvy shadow chancellor, and together with Richard Murphy's advice they have some good alternative economic policies which they continue to make open and available to the public.

 

You want rid of him, fine. But you'll still lose. Many of us have been shown there is an alternative possible and we want the chance to do the groundwork to try and make it possible. Take that away now and you'll lose half the party membership who won't vote for someone from the right. You'll lose a shitload of enthused young people, and plenty of people up to pension age. You've only got to look at how quickly the petition to stay hit 100,000 signatures yesterday.

 

He needs more people in the party to work with him rather than plot against him, and he's already said he'll use conference to take votes on policy and ideas, at which point people can lobby him about his policies they agree/disagree with.

[Paul 6,538]

He's not a leader. End of.

 

I voted for him on a ridiculous whim: the childish idea that it would shake up the establishment to force a non-establishment figure into the mainstream. Little did I imagine he would sit on his hands while the ultimate establishment Bullingdon cunts played out their games to the point where we'd end up leaving the EU and seeing the UK disintegrate as a result with a wasteland of racism, poverty and entrenched conservatism left in its wake.

 

Corbyn is a political child, but the likes of me are worse for putting his hand on the tiller of the opposition boat in the first place. We elected a pacifist to fight WWIII for us.

[razor 3,282]

A further point is that when I signed up as a Labour member immediately after the general election he hadn't even been nominated.

 

Once he had he sort of got my vote by default. There are Tories less right wing than Liz Kendall so she wasn't getting it. Cooper is just your classic neoliberal shill and I couldn't vote for her either. Burnham was going to get my vote but after he abstained from voting against the welfare bill he could fuck off. That was a shockingly bad move by him.

 

So I voted Corbyn but I think I'm on record on here at the time saying that I didn't think he was up to much and wouldn't come anywhere near winning an election. But my hope was, and I know a lot of other people who said the same, that he'd bring the national ' conversation ' back from the right and make genuine left wing politics more appealing and also maybe start a bit of an SNP anti austerity movement that could really take off.

 

The country has just voted in favour of Johnson, Gove and Farage. If anything it's getting more and more right wing since he's taken over ( not that I'm blaming him solely for that, far from it ) and something drastic needs to happen to arrest that. If that means someone a bit more centrist taking over from him then so be it. I don't think we can afford to wait around any longer, the future is looking scary today and not just because of being taken out of the EU but because of the people who will now be left in charge. I dread to think what will happen to workers rights and the human rights act will almost certainly be repealed like they have wanted.

 

Also, I'm still really pissed and hungover from last night so apologies if some of that doesn't make sense or is rambling.

 

Repped for use of the word "shill".

 

He's not a leader. End of.

 

I voted for him on a ridiculous whim: the childish idea that it would shake up the establishment to force a non-establishment figure into the mainstream. Little did I imagine he would sit on his hands while the ultimate establishment Bullingdon cunts played out their games to the point where we'd end up leaving the EU and seeing the UK disintegrate as a result with a wasteland of racism, poverty and entrenched conservatism left in its wake.

 

Corbyn is a political child, but the likes of me are worse for putting his hand on the tiller of the opposition boat in the first place. We elected a pacifist to fight WWIII for us.

 

Harsh.

 

I see it as a sign of the times, and a yearning discontent and sense of disenfranchisement that he was put in to shake things up.  He was a message to the powers that be.  I think when Labour are elected, we will look back and see that Corbyn was needed.

 

The direction(lessness) of the Labour Party was arrested, and its future will be better for having Corbyn in there.

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

Stay for me.

 

You change leader now and you effectively cede the electoral process to the media. You do that and you no longer have an electoral process worth participating in because you've handed the decision making to the media.

 

Corbyn has been in the job less than a year. In that time his numbers have steadily increased as more people have looked beyond the ridiculous criticisms against him and started listening to the man himself.

 

He's been hamstrung in who he can pick for his front bench, but John McDonell has shown himself to be a pretty savvy shadow chancellor, and together with Richard Murphy's advice they have some good alternative economic policies which they continue to make open and available to the public.

 

You want rid of him, fine. But you'll still lose. Many of us have been shown there is an alternative possible and we want the chance to do the groundwork to try and make it possible. Take that away now and you'll lose half the party membership who won't vote for someone from the right. You'll lose a shitload of enthused young people, and plenty of people up to pension age. You've only got to look at how quickly the petition to stay hit 100,000 signatures yesterday.

 

He needs more people in the party to work with him rather than plot against him, and he's already said he'll use conference to take votes on policy and ideas, at which point people can lobby him about his policies they agree/disagree with.

I disagree with a lot of that. I don't want to sound harsh or dismssive of people like you or AOT who strongly back him because I like you both but I honestly think some people have got their head buried in the sand with regards to the way things are going with him. I guess some people have got faith in him and that's fine but I haven't.

 

I always hear how he's connecting to more and more people and building support and I think he is, within a very limited sphere of maybe 3-400,000 activists and supporters. But that isn't translating into the real world for me as evidenced by the fact he couldn't convince Labour supporters to vote remain in loads of Labour supporting areas.

 

He's simply got too much baggage as well to be anything like electable. If he were ever to look anything like getting near a threat the press would step up the line that him and McDonnell are terrorist sympathisers and he'd be toast.

 

Fair enough if you think he's offering an alternative and you think more people are looking for alternative policies and the like but that's not happening in any kind of numbers to make a difference, for me.

 

I don't agree you'd be changing him because of the media either. The Tory press which is 90% of all press would love him to stay on as leader.

[Lee909 9,690]

I like him but i do wonder if he can get people to vote for him. The sad fact is people are voted in by soundbites/personality these days not policies or being a good person/politician.

 

The worry is if he goes i can see a Blairite ending up in control and while more electable(maybe) they will just be torie light and not offer a real change. It could lead me to find another party but its really a two party system and torie light is better than Boris

[Anubis 13,481]

That's fine. I disagree with you but respect what you are saying.

[Anubis 13,481]

Like LF, I won't be voting for anyone from the Blair part of the party, and I'll be leaving if one takes the leadership.

 

If that happens you may as well hand your ballot paper to Murdoch because you've surrendered, and they are as much for putting big business before the voters who voted leave in poor areas as the Tories are.

[Moctezuma 721]

I think he's a decent man with spades of integrity and his politics are more what the Labour party needs (I.A. compassion and togeatherness). But that vice news documentary really made me think he doesn't have the poltical nouse and vicious streak that you need to be an effective party leader.

[Moctezuma 721]

It might be a bit soon for them but Clive Lewis would be a good option from the left and Dan Jarvis from the right of the party.

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

That's another thing I've reluctantly come to accept. I wouldn't vote for someone extreme like Liz Kendall but would I accept a more centrist leader like Jarvis, Burnham or even ( and it genuinely pains me to say this ) Cooper right now if I thought they'd get elected then yes, I would.

 

They are worlds apart in a lot of respects from what I want from a leader and I don't share a lot of their beliefs. But I don't buy the line there isn't much difference between a Labour Party run by say, Cooper, and the Tory party. Especially a Tory party run by Boris Johnson.

 

There is a world of difference for me. Life would be a hell of a lot better for the majority of people in this country under a Labour Party, any Labour Party. Sometimes you've got to accept the lesser of two evils. It's terrifying to think what the country will look like after 5 years of Johnson and Gove rule and I want them gone by any means possible.

[Anubis 13,481]

It might be a bit soon for them but Clive Lewis would be a good option from the left and Dan Jarvis from the right of the party.

I'd agree with you about Clive Lewis, but Dan Jarvis has shown his true colours for me over the last 6 months.

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

I think he's a decent man with spades of integrity and his politics are more what the Labour party needs (I.A. compassion and togeatherness). But that vice news documentary really made me think he doesn't have the poltical nouse and vicious streak that you need to be an effective party leader.

He's an extremely average politician. There's nothing wrong with the message he's trying to deliver but someone else, who appeals more widely to Labour voters as a whole, needs to deliver it. And in the absence of such a person then someone who can defeat the Tories will do.

 

I'm going back to bed now cos I'm fucked so I'll look back in later on.

[Anubis 13,481]

There is a world of difference for me. Life would be a hell of a lot better for the majority of people in this country under a Labour Party, any Labour Party. Sometimes you've got to accept the lesser of two evils. It's terrifying to think what the country will look like after 5 years of Johnson and Gove rule and I want them gone by any means possible.

And there is where we part company. Not only do I think the lesser of two evils is an evil not worth voting for, but the lives of the people at the bottom wouldn't be any significantly better off.

 

Burnham - nice guy but announced his leadership campaign from financial offices in the City of London.

 

And all of Burnham, Cooper and Kendall were fully on the the cuts for austerity train. Same with the likes of Jarvis and Ummuna.

 

They talk a good game, but they don't really give a fuck about the most impoverished areas of the country. Maybe Burnham might as regional mayor, but in Westminster they're as much influenced by the Daily Mail and Murdoch as any Tory.

[Sputnik1 3,499]

I admire that he sticks to his principals but he isn't a leader and I would never vote for him. Looking through the motley crew that surrounds him I'm not seeing much to select from them either. 

[Sugar Ape 11,311]

And there is where we part company. Not only do I think the lesser of two evils is an evil not worth voting for, but the lives of the people at the bottom wouldn't be any significantly better off.

 

Burnham - nice guy but announced his leadership campaign from financial offices in the City of London.

 

And all of Burnham, Cooper and Kendall were fully on the the cuts for austerity train. Same with the likes of Jarvis and Ummuna.

 

They talk a good game, but they don't really give a fuck about the most impoverished areas of the country. Maybe Burnham might as regional mayor, but in Westminster they're as much influenced by the Daily Mail and Murdoch as any Tory.

Well yeah, none of them are anywhere near as left wing as I'd like. But I don't agree that life at the bottom wouldn't be much different. Compared to what's coming I think it would be a lot different.

 

You've got to be a realist about things. There are only two parties in the UK that can get elected. If the option is either Labour in opposition with a good leader or in government with a worse leader then I'll take them in government.

 

I was more willing to give Corbyn time until we voted leave. Now the overriding priority is just to get the Tories out for me by any means possible.

 

Anyway, bed...

[Bobby Hundreds 5,726]

He has no chance against a media so hostile towards him absolutely no chance. Cameron isn't a leader of men, Johnson isn't a leader of men they are wrapped up soundbites who appeal the the media. We get who the media wants. so the answer will be a Blairite like Dan jarvis. When corbyn goes I fuck the labour party off forever and join the greens. I'm not choosing between two sets of corporate bitches anymore if we can't have politicians with principals then I'll have to vote with my own rather than picking the lesser of two evils.

 

Not to say I don't think corbyn focuses too much on the wrong things.

 

First past the post does not function in this country anymore a system stitched up by the big two.

[Jairzinho 20,538]

I don't think it is a simple question, because it depends who would be likely to replace him. I don't think he's a very good leader, and if this -

 

Clive Lewis would be a good option from the left and Dan Jarvis from the right of the party.

 

or maybe Richard Burgon, took over I'd bin Corbyn tomorrow. If it's Hilary Benn, Dan Jarvis, or any other right winger, well, I just wouldn't support the Labour.

 

Whilst Corbyn isn't a very good leader he at least provides a vehicle for the left by having someone on the left in charge of a major party.

 

I want a cunt in charge really, but it has to be a left wing cunt.

 

I agree with Anubis in that if you replace him with some plastic Blairite the chances of winning the next election certainly won't increase. It could turn a generation off parliamentary politics completely. Which, admittedly, might not be such a bad thing.

[Jairzinho 20,538]

I disagree with a lot of that. I don't want to sound harsh or dismssive of people like you or AOT who strongly back him because I like you both but I honestly think some people have got their head buried in the sand with regards to the way things are going with him. I guess some people have got faith in him and that's fine but I haven't.

 

I always hear how he's connecting to more and more people and building support and I think he is, within a very limited sphere of maybe 3-400,000 activists and supporters. But that isn't translating into the real world for me as evidenced by the fact he couldn't convince Labour supporters to vote remain in loads of Labour supporting areas.

 

He's simply got too much baggage as well to be anything like electable. If he were ever to look anything like getting near a threat the press would step up the line that him and McDonnell are terrorist sympathisers and he'd be toast.

 

Fair enough if you think he's offering an alternative and you think more people are looking for alternative policies and the like but that's not happening in any kind of numbers to make a difference, for me.

 

I don't agree you'd be changing him because of the media either. The Tory press which is 90% of all press would love him to stay on as leader.

 

He was never going to be able. In exactly the same way he was never going to stop Scots voting SNP. Both sets of people have had decades of the Labour Party not giving a single solitary fuck about them.

[Jairzinho 20,538]

I think this sums up a lot of the problems for Labour. They, broadly speaking, having two power bases, and they need to find a way of bringing them together. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpedpjgdR4s

[Jairzinho 20,538]

And there is where we part company. Not only do I think the lesser of two evils is an evil not worth voting for, but the lives of the people at the bottom wouldn't be any significantly better off.

 

Burnham - nice guy but announced his leadership campaign from financial offices in the City of London.

 

And all of Burnham, Cooper and Kendall were fully on the the cuts for austerity train. Same with the likes of Jarvis and Ummuna.

 

They talk a good game, but they don't really give a fuck about the most impoverished areas of the country. Maybe Burnham might as regional mayor, but in Westminster they're as much influenced by the Daily Mail and Murdoch as any Tory.

 

It's also the legitimacy that you give the party. You'll vote for Cooper will you? Okay, next time we'll find someone even more right wing, and then the same next time...etc.

[Stickman 5,074]

The country would be so much better if he got elected just like if Foot had but he's got no chance from the media or from his own party and it's been like that since day one.

The thing with the media is if you think it's bad with him now it's nothing compared to how it would be come Election time.

In the long run Labour and The Greens are going to have to try and have some sort of alliance as the right have got this pretty much stitched up for the next 20 to 30 years if not longer.

[magicrat 5,574]

He's not a leader. End of.

 

I voted for him on a ridiculous whim: the childish idea that it would shake up the establishment to force a non-establishment figure into the mainstream. Little did I imagine he would sit on his hands while the ultimate establishment Bullingdon cunts played out their games to the point where we'd end up leaving the EU and seeing the UK disintegrate as a result with a wasteland of racism, poverty and entrenched conservatism left in its wake.

 

Corbyn is a political child, but the likes of me are worse for putting his hand on the tiller of the opposition boat in the first place. We elected a pacifist to fight WWIII for us.

 

Harsh as Razor commented but strikes right to the heart of the issue. He is a political child and right now more than any period in my lifetime we need a strong Labour leader that can stand up to cunts on the right of the Tory party that have taken us down a disastrous path. Someone that can also appeal to the broad centre ground which seems to be a political dessert at the moment

[Kevin D 6,177]

He's been exposed as a hypejob and should retire.