Russia v Ukraine

[Gnasher]

Ames (in exile). The BBC,  Matt Seddon (Financial Times) all singing from the same hymn sheet. All seeing and talking sense.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66581217?s=09

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[halewood pete]

[TheHowieLama]

Anticipating the Ukrainian counteroffensive that ultimately kicked off on June 4, Russian forces under the supervision of Army Gen. Sergey Surovikin this spring and early summer scrambled to complete three main defensive lines across southern Ukraine.

 

Military engineers and civilian contractors sprinkled concrete tank obstacles, dug trenches and—perhaps most importantly—laid hundreds of thousands of mines. The result, the Surovikin Line, is one of the most daunting military fortifications in the world.

The minefields north of the line are the main reason the Ukrainian counteroffensive corps has advanced just a few miles along its most important axes in southern and eastern Ukraine. But that slow rate of advance soon could change: on or right before Wednesday, the Ukrainian air-assault forces’ 82nd Brigade crossed the first of the three lines, just outside of Verbove in Zaporizhzhia Oblast.

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/30/ukrainian-troops-have-crossed-the-first-of-the-russians-three-main-trenchlines/?sh=5f5ae098d268

 

[Section_31]

It's mad that the Russians are now fighting a defensive war in the scraps of turf they've managed to take over. They're a second world army at best it would seem, if one thing has come out of this it's that the countries around Russia shouldn't fear it save for the mindless destruction it can and will rain down on civilians, which is further motivation to resist. 

[Pidge]

No, we did not back Gaddafi's coup.

[SasaS]

The point of the "Surovikin line" is to be able to hold it with fewer troops and lower quality formations, exhaust Ukrainians while the best units prepare to counter the exhausted UAF later on or go on an offensive of their own somewhere else, like they did in the Kupyansk-Kremina front.  That is why UAF should ignore Western expectations and continue to clear Russian positions one tree line at a time. They clearly don't have the sufficient firepower for anything else, nor are likely to have it in the near future.

 

 

Russian willingness to continue dying in great numbers for Ukrainian villages in the south is really baffling though. In Donbas they at least have considerable support among to remaining population, in the south they don't even have that, it's apparently full of Ukrainian zhduni.  

[Section_31]

Russia's general military shitness is the biggest argument for the production capabilities of communism I've ever seen. About a year after the nazis pulled their pants down they were churning out some of the best tanks in the world by the thousands.

 

The present mob are resorting to Chechen savages and howitzers built when Kim Wilde was fit.

[JagSquared]

I think that was a case of they had to or die against the Nazis, it was a literally fight for survival their troops were incredibly motivated. 

 

I’m no expert but as a novice looking at it and Fast forward to now and It’s clear that endemic corruption that has fucked the life out of the Russian military. They’ve certainly claimed to have spent enough but seem so far behind military wise.
 

They thought numbers would dissuade other nations and to a point it did as others would look at the raw statistics and see thousands of tanks, vehicles, planes and artillery backed up by hundreds of thousands of “troops” and have second thoughts about pissing off the Russians and give into their demands.

 

But through a combination of terrible management, military leadership and corruption they are being shown to be horrendously outdated in equipment and tactics in this war. Modern weapons are making mincemeat of their military and it’s beyond embarrassing for them. The only thing they have going for them now military wise is nukes but based on the above I wonder how many are actually operational. The answer is probably just enough. I just don’t understand what it will take for the people of russia to say fuck this and topple Putin. He still has high approval ratings and their economy has managed to survive despite the sanctions.
 

the issue the Ukrainians will have that when they eventually break through the cost of this war will have been so high that as a nation they may never recover. It’ll take decades and billions to clear the land mines and rebuild cities and what’s it all been for? Fuck all.

[cochyn]

57 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Russia's general military shitness is the biggest argument for the production capabilities of communism I've ever seen. About a year after the nazis pulled their pants down they were churning out some of the best tanks in the world by the thousands.

 

The present mob are resorting to Chechen savages and howitzers built when Kim Wilde was fit.

 

It's a good point: Also, when did the US Lend-Lease deal kick in for the Soviets? There's an argument that they'd have struggled without it.

[Section_31]

47 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

I think that was a case of they had to or die against the Nazis, it was a literally fight for survival their troops were incredibly motivated. 

 

I’m no expert but as a novice looking at it and Fast forward to now and It’s clear that endemic corruption that has fucked the life out of the Russian military. They’ve certainly claimed to have spent enough but seem so far behind military wise.
 

They thought numbers would dissuade other nations and to a point it did as others would look at the raw statistics and see thousands of tanks, vehicles, planes and artillery backed up by hundreds of thousands of “troops” and have second thoughts about pissing off the Russians and give into their demands.

 

But through a combination of terrible management, military leadership and corruption they are being shown to be horrendously outdated in equipment and tactics in this war. Modern weapons are making mincemeat of their military and it’s beyond embarrassing for them. The only thing they have going for them now military wise is nukes but based on the above I wonder how many are actually operational. The answer is probably just enough. I just don’t understand what it will take for the people of russia to say fuck this and topple Putin. He still has high approval ratings and their economy has managed to survive despite the sanctions.
 

the issue the Ukrainians will have that when they eventually break through the cost of this war will have been so high that as a nation they may never recover. It’ll take decades and billions to clear the land mines and rebuild cities and what’s it all been for? Fuck all.

 

The corruption aspect would certainly seem to be their biggest problem. I read somewhere that their vehicles were clapped out because contractors said they were doing maintenance on them for years and they weren't, I also read soldiers had been fed "stewed steak" which was actually dog food.

 

There's a tipping point for corruption after which things simply don't function, like some of these police forces in places like South America.

[SasaS]

It should probably be noted that Russia is the first of the big militaries actually fighting a prolonged war against what is close to a peer army, since the WWII (or Korea if you think the Chinese army was already there in 1950s). Also, Russia is only about 40 percent of the former Soviet Union, and the Cold War USSR supported (and economically plundering them) by  over a dozen client or satellite states is no comparison.  

[TheHowieLama]

Putin's colonel killed in drone strike while mowing lawn at his Russian residence according to sources.

 

Alexei Chernykh, affiliated with Russia’s anti-corruption police, lost his life while performing gardening tasks at his rural home in Shchetinovka, Russia, which is located close to the Ukraine border.

The news of his death was reported by Russian Telegram channel Baza, which has ties to the country’s security services.

No official responsibility has been claimed by Ukraine for the drone strike. In past instances, Ukraine has distanced itself from attacks on Russian soil.

Baza stated on Monday that Chernykh was killed when “a Ukrainian drone dropped ammunition on his garden in Shchetinovka.”

The channel added, “At that moment, Alexei had the day off and mowed the lawn.”

Vyacheslav Gladkov, Governor of Belgorod, accused Ukraine of being responsible for the “targeted” drone strike on the Russian rural area.

Gladkov implied that Ukraine’s armed forces used a drone to drop “an explosive device” which hit a civilian while he was “mowing the grass” at his summer cottage.

[halewood pete]

[Gnasher]

Straight up geezers.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-names-powerful-businessman-kolomoisky-suspect-fraud-probe-sbu-2023-09-02/

 

 

 

[M_B]

As sure as night follows day.

[Section_31]

On 02/09/2023 at 00:04, halewood pete said:

 

They're like kids the Russians these days. When you think back to real intellects like Gorbachev it's amazing to see what they've come to.

[Strontium]

On 01/09/2023 at 09:24, SasaS said:

It should probably be noted that Russia is the first of the big militaries actually fighting a prolonged war against what is close to a peer army, since the WWII (or Korea if you think the Chinese army was already there in 1950s). Also, Russia is only about 40 percent of the former Soviet Union, and the Cold War USSR supported (and economically plundering them) by  over a dozen client or satellite states is no comparison.  

 

Yep, it's like comparing Britain's military strength now, and Britain's military strength when it controlled a quarter of the globe.

[Section_31]

24 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

Yep, it's like comparing Britain's military strength now, and Britain's military strength when it controlled a quarter of the globe.

 

It's different comparing strength and capabilities though.

 

The British army is significantly smaller but wouldn't be thick enough to camp out at chernobyl and keep their phone sim cards in while they're in a convoy of tanks.

 

You wouldn't expect the Russians to have the numbers of the USSR, but given its wealth of resources and probably expertise, you'd expect they could put on a better show than flattening supermarkets and hiring murderers from straight from the stalag.

[TheSire]

21 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Straight up geezers.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-names-powerful-businessman-kolomoisky-suspect-fraud-probe-sbu-2023-09-02/

 

 

 

Yawn.

[Ne Moe Imya]

I actually think it's a great sign that Ukraine is cracking down heavily on corruption.

 

In Russia, the only time anyone ever gets arrested for corruption is when there's infighting in the pro-Putin ranks and the government wants to make an example of someone who stepped out of line. The rest of the time, corruption is the very reason that those officials are in position of power, to ensure that they keep the conveyor belt of cash running upstairs. It's ignored, even when it's patently obvious.

 

One thing that has been fascinating to watch is how Ukraine, who was way ahead of Russia on this but still struggling with a massive culture of corruption of their own, has changed. The existential nature of the fight has meant that the tolerance of petty corruption and graft from the regular population has basically dwindled to zero at the same time that they've developed an independent media environment.

 

So I'm sure that Russia's backers (and those who pretend that neutrality and "both sides are bad" aren't the same thing as backing Russia) are going to make propaganda hay out of the Ukrainians arresting oligarchs and sacking ministers. However, I'm also sure that it's a sign that in Ukraine, things have changed. Ukrainians, unlike Russians, no longer sit and say "yeah, these guys steal, but if you replace them, the new ones might steal more, so ..." When you're in a fight for your life, your tolerance for that sort of thing evaporates.

[Ne Moe Imya]

12 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

They're like kids the Russians these days. When you think back to real intellects like Gorbachev it's amazing to see what they've come to.

The Russian ability to live in absolutely horrific conditions and yet feel a totally bizarre ethnic pride in everything is unmatched. Watch the second half of this, where a supposed "expert" on Ukraine mocks Ukrainian as a non-language, a barbarian culture, who could only hope to be as cultured and elevated as Russians:
 

 

This kind of thing is on TV there on a daily basis. There was a hilarious video recently of someone walking the streets in a Russian village asking people how they felt about the country. There was a woman in her 70s or 80s, drawing water out of a village well that she had to carry back to her house as it didn't have running water, but all she could talk about was how "glorious Mother Russia is and how richly we all live."

[ZonkoVille77]

7 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

The Russian ability to live in absolutely horrific conditions and yet feel a totally bizarre ethnic pride in everything is unmatched. Watch the second half of this, where a supposed "expert" on Ukraine mocks Ukrainian as a non-language, a barbarian culture, who could only hope to be as cultured and elevated as Russians:
 

 

This kind of thing is on TV there on a daily basis. There was a hilarious video recently of someone walking the streets in a Russian village asking people how they felt about the country. There was a woman in her 70s or 80s, drawing water out of a village well that she had to carry back to her house as it didn't have running water, but all she could talk about was how "glorious Mother Russia is and how richly we all live."

 

Faith is a powerful thing. Nearly impossible to change the minds of people who believe so fervently towards their country/religion. 

[Gnasher]

Lily with a long list of uncomfortable truths. I'm one of the 'realists'

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/the-weekend-essay/2023/09/ukraine-war-realists-right?s=09

 

 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/the-weekend-essay/2023/09/ukraine-war-realists-right?s=09

 

 

 

[SasaS]

I always ask and the "realists" never have an answer, what exactly is the alternative to supporting Ukraine against the current (third since 2014) Russian invasion?

[Gnasher]

4 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I always ask and the "realists" never have an answer, what exactly is the alternative to supporting Ukraine against the current (third since 2014) Russian invasion?

 

Trying to strike a deal? As suggested by the American General about three quarters of the way down the article. 

 

As for 2014, hmm, wasn't a democratically elected president kicked out of office?