Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[jimmycase]

The Labour MEP's voted against Juncker.

But there wasn't enough of them.

That's how an election works.

 

Nice try but no.

 

Party member of Labour, get a vote in the leadeship

Party member of the tories, get a vote in the leadership

Im not certain how the LibDems vote for leader but Id be astounding if ordinary members didnt get a vote.

 

Like I said, if you're happy with an indirect at best voting system for juncker with no plebiscite, knock yourself out.

[Mathewbet1]

David Miliband is riding in on his horse he is going to save us all apparently early election labour win

[FanchesterCity]

And did your MEP consult you when they voted for juncker?

 

The election of juncker is more aligned to the former soviet bloc.

 

Did Cameron go to the nation when he appointed Osbourne?

 

The bloody point is that we act largely as a republic and offload the decision making upwards. The two KEY legislative bodies are the actual Prime Ministers who set the primary legislation and the European Parliament which approves or denies the Secondary Legislation.

 

So, the primary legislation says 'We need to sort out the Guarantee of good in the EU' - and they hand that down the line.

The council and many other bodies then set about deciding that if it should be 6 months, or 5 years... and they eventually settle on 2 year guarantee.

The European Parliament (elected) then approves that - secondary legislation.

 

The bitching and moaning about unelected people setting the law is akin to moaning about the civil service not being elected.

 

I don't like a lot of the decisions made, but it's democracy. If more nations think the price of milk is more important than the price of petrol and spend six months coming up with a law for that, so be it. Yes we end up with some strange and undesirable laws.

 

We have some strange and undesirable laws of our own making too... and let's not forget, we're the most spied on nation on Earth per capita (as far as anybody can tell!). SOME of the laws from the EU have been more protective of the population than UK law. So it's a balance of good with bad.

 

Personally I LIKE the French high regard for personal privacy and data. I LIKE the Dutch liberal attitudes etc, but I can't cherry pick them all.

 

So I'm not going to subscribe to this 'we won't be told what to do by a foreigner'. To me it's just 'more of the same'.

[Pidge]

Nice try but no.

 

Party member of Labour, get a vote in the leadeship

Party member of the tories, get a vote in the leadership

Im not certain how the LibDems vote for leader but Id be astounding if ordinary members didnt get a vote.

 

Like I said, if you're happy with an indirect at best voting system for juncker with no plebiscite, knock yourself out.

 

President of the Commission (which is a non-voting position) is nominated by the council (made up of the heads of state) and then confirmed by the European Parliament (made up of MEPs).

 

Our head of state is elected as a result of the general election and our MEPs are elected through the European elections (last held along with the Locals). So all parties are appointed as a result of popular voting.

 

If you're arguing that we should have a PR vote for our council member I'd say that's an interesting view, but would undermine the office of PM and reduce the soveriegn power of parliament.

[FanchesterCity]

The HoL introduces minor legislation on behalf of the Government of the day because there isnt enough Parliamentary time for it to be presented in the Commons. At least try and learn about the constitution.

 

No, the House of Lords is free to introduce law on it's own initiative... a law can originate from either house, and does so frequently.

A law must still pass through both houses regardless, and that makes 50% of the process unelected.

 

If you really want to get picky, the Queen is running the whole shebang, and she's not elected either. Of course, we all know in practice that she isn't, but constitutionally she IS. Not that we have a written constitution.

 

[jimmycase]

Did Cameron go to the nation when he appointed Osbourne?

 

The bloody point is that we act largely as a republic and offload the decision making upwards. The two KEY legislative bodies are the actual Prime Ministers who set the primary legislation and the European Parliament which approves or denies the Secondary Legislation.

 

So, the primary legislation says 'We need to sort out the Guarantee of good in the EU' - and they hand that down the line.

The council and many other bodies then set about deciding that if it should be 6 months, or 5 years... and they eventually settle on 2 year guarantee.

The European Parliament (elected) then approves that - secondary legislation.

 

The bitching and moaning about unelected people setting the law is akin to moaning about the civil service not being elected.

 

I don't like a lot of the decisions made, but it's democracy. If more nations think the price of milk is more important than the price of petrol and spend six months coming up with a law for that, so be it. Yes we end up with some strange and undesirable laws.

 

We have some strange and undesirable laws of our own making too... and let's not forget, we're the most spied on nation on Earth per capita (as far as anybody can tell!). SOME of the laws from the EU have been more protective of the population than UK law. So it's a balance of good with bad.

 

Personally I LIKE the French high regard for personal privacy and data. I LIKE the Dutch liberal attitudes etc, but I can't cherry pick them all.

 

So I'm not going to subscribe to this 'we won't be told what to do by a foreigner'. To me it's just 'more of the same'.

 

President of the Commission (which is a non-voting position) is nominated by the council (made up of the heads of state) and then confirmed by the European Parliament (made up of MEPs).

 

Our head of state is elected as a result of the general election and our MEPs are elected through the European elections (last held along with the Locals). So all parties are appointed as a result of popular voting.

 

If you're arguing that we should have a PR vote for our council member I'd say that's an interesting view, but would undermine the office of PM and reduce the soveriegn power of parliament.

 

Im all for PR. I voted for it in the referendum. How many people on here banging on about voting and democracy voted down PR?

 

As Ive said, if you're happy with an indirectly elected head without a general plebiscite, be my guest.

 

Seems a lot of people want to pick and choose their voting systems and version of democracy to suit their agenda.

[jimmycase]

No, the House of Lords is free to introduce law on it's own initiative... a law can originate from either house, and does so frequently.

A law must still pass through both houses regardless, and that makes 50% of the process unelected.

 

If you really want to get picky, the Queen is running the whole shebang, and she's not elected either. Of course, we all know in practice that she isn't, but constitutionally she IS. Not that we have a written constitution.

 

Wrong. Read the British Constitution and politics*. A constitution doesnt have to be written to exist. In the uK the constitution is derived from convention.

 

The HoL introduces minor legislation on behalf of the Government of the day. End of.

 

The Queen as head of state signs acts into law.

 

* Macmillan Press Publishers

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

JimmyHeadCase is hilarious.

 

While you're banging on about a points based system and joining the WTO, what's the plan for how we trade with Europe while maintaining your points based system on immigration?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Iain Duncan Smith: "Our promises were a series of possibilities"

 

HAHAHAHA!

[jimmycase]

JimmyHeadCase is hilarious.

 

While you're banging on about a points based system and joining the WTO, what's the plan for how we trade with Europe while maintaining your points based system on immigration?

 

So you're saying trade with Europe or do you mean the EU, stopped on the 24 June?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

So you're saying trade with Europe or do you mean the EU, stopped on the 24 June?

Hahahaha.

 

You know quite well what the question meant. Grow up.

[jimmycase]

Hahahaha.

 

You know quite well what the question meant. Grow up.

 

So I proved you point totally and utterly incorrect and you cant accept that trading with Europe (or the EU but you dont make clear what you meant) hasnt stopped.

 

oh well.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

So I proved you point totally and utterly incorrect and you cant accept that trading with Europe (or the EU but you dont make clear what you meant) hasnt stopped.

 

oh well.

You really are a massive spastic. I didn't say trade had stopped. Stop being a mong.

 

When we leave the EU, and want to continue to trade with EU nations, what type of agreement will we have that allows for this, while allowing us to have a domestic points based system for migration of EU nationals?

 

Come on Jimmy, no going off on tangents or chucking straw men about with your spazzy arms, just answer the question.

[FanchesterCity]

Wrong. Read the British Constitution and politics*. A constitution doesnt have to be written to exist. In the uK the constitution is derived from convention.

 

The HoL introduces minor legislation on behalf of the Government of the day. End of.

 

The Queen as head of state signs acts into law.

 

* Macmillan Press Publishers

 

Not wrong. Read my words. I said we didn't have a written constitution. We don't.

Ours is made up of convention as you say - can you please show where I have said otherwise.

 

No you can't. Your apology is accepted in advance.

 

The Queen appoints the government and she signs 'OFF' the acts. Without her signature, no law my friend.

 

You can't have it both ways - moaning about unelected bodies having influence whilst our own (the HoL and the Monarchy) are unelected.

And you can't pretend the HoL is subservient to the HoC, it's not.

And you can't pretend the HoL cannot initiate a bill, it can.

And you can't pretend the Queen doesn't form the government - she does.

 

In fact, if she WANTED, she could appoint the losing leader. That would never happen of course, but she could. The General Election is technically only a poll to express the will of the people and then SHE chooses. 

[Nightcat]

Booo hooo the EU. That alcoholic maniac Juncker, cretin Schulz and sadist Schoeble.

 

Leon Brittan was 5 years a Vice President of the EU.

[jimmycase]

You really are a massive spastic. I didn't say trade had stopped. Stop being a mong.

 

When we leave the EU, and want to continue to trade with EU nations, what type of agreement will we have that allows for this, while allowing us to have a domestic points based system for migration of EU nationals?

 

Come on Jimmy, no going off on tangents or chucking straw men about with your spazzy arms, just answer the question.

 

Im not being the mong here or spastic etc although it is objectionable you use 'spastic' but it seems to be common with some people on here.

 

Germany has already said it will continue to trade with us. Apart maybe from France and juncker who want to take a bombastic approach to us leaving, it doesnt appear any other EU country has come out and said they wont trade with us.

 

You and other keep banging on about our massive imports from the EU. Are you now saying these EU countries are going to stop trading with us? That would affect their economies, their industries and their workers.

 

Come on, wise up a little.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Im not being the mong here or spastic etc although it is objectionable you use 'spastic' but it seems to be common with some people on here.

 

Germany has already said it will continue to trade with us. Apart maybe from France and juncker who want to take a bombastic approach to us leaving, it doesnt appear any other EU country has come out and said they wont trade with us.

 

You and other keep banging on about our massive imports from the EU. Are you now saying these EU countries are going to stop trading with us? That would affect their economies, their industries and their workers.

 

Come on, wise up a little.

That's not a plan. What's the plan? Just answer the question.

[FanchesterCity]

Booo hooo the EU. That alcoholic maniac Juncker, cretin Schulz and sadist Schoeble.

 

Leon Brittan was 5 years a Vice President of the EU.

 

Yep. It's shorthand for 'what you mean there's fucking foreigners in Europe?

They are ALL out to get us - the French, the Germans, the Spanish, even those nice Dutch... they have secret meeting on how to piss us off and vote against us you know. They aren't just putting their own country's views forward - so sireeee, they just want to piss us off.

[Nightcat]

Yep. It's shorthand for 'what you mean there's fucking foreigners in Europe?

They are ALL out to get us - the French, the Germans, the Spanish, even those nice Dutch... they have secret meeting on how to piss us off and vote against us you know. They aren't just putting their own country's views forward - so sireeee, they just want to piss us off.

 

It also shows what kind of people ascent to the higher positions in the EU.

 

You can ignore certain qualities of the chosen staff.

 

I don't know if I am clear enough.

[FanchesterCity]

Jimmy, you're right about the 'spastic' and 'mong' terms. Bad form that.

 

You're wrong about other things though.

Nobody here is saying trade will stop. Not one person. So please, don't use it as part of an argument. The debate is how hindered or (eased) will UK trade be as a result of leaving.

It's almost inevitable that trade with the EU will be hindered, if only slightly. The whole raison d'etre of the EU is to have easier trade if you're inside it, so being outside of it HAS to be seen to be slightly less easy.

The next question is whether that 'less easy' (or difficulty) is outweighed by easier trading with non-EU countries. And we can only speculate on that for the moment.

 

And that is precisely what we're doing now - speculating on the nature / level of additional burden on trade within the EU and of the potential for opening up new markets outside the EU.

 

Not a single person has suggested trade with either will stop.

[Pidge]

Im all for PR. I voted for it in the referendum. How many people on here banging on about voting and democracy voted down PR?

 

As Ive said, if you're happy with an indirectly elected head without a general plebiscite, be my guest.

 

Seems a lot of people want to pick and choose their voting systems and version of democracy to suit their agenda.

 

Quite, some are suggesting that the way of making a more nationally representative Europe would be to give a single figure at the heart of the administration a national-level mandate which could supercede domestic governments in certain areas...

[FanchesterCity]

It also shows what kind of people ascent to the higher positions in the EU.

 

You can ignore certain qualities of the chosen staff.

 

I don't know if I am clear enough.

 

Almost certain the same kind of people who ascend to the top here, and with the same qualities.

Except they're foreign and evil and we are British and good.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I feel the terms were warranted. He's implying that I'm stupid purely because he either doesn't want to or can't answer the question that was initially put to him in a civil manner.

[Sugar Ape]

Bleak reading this article. Good point about a potential PM Johnson negotiating with the EU after the leave campaign compared them to Nazis.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/

[Section_31]

To be fair I do genuinely think most Europeans hate us. Most of them hate each other too. Parts of Italy consider other parts racially inferior, swathes of Spain hate other parts of Spain, France is an unprecedented racial and social tinder box, when it blows it's gonna blow big.

 

It was always a bizarre move to try and weld this continent of all continents into one giant social and financial enterprise, it should have just done what it was good at, pooled its talents and redistributed wealth. Whisper it quietly, back in the day it was almost Marxist.