Is Trent Really Worth It?

[El Rojo]

Could see him moving to Real Madrid post-Klopp and excelling there. 
 

Dreadful yesterday but when used properly and focussed he’s amazing. 

[Baltar]

He's not fully fit, yesterday's game is not something he should be judged on. The whole team was absolutely pants.

[Captain Turdseye]

We’re probably losing Salah this summer which puts even more emphasis on fixing that side of the pitch. 

[3 Stacks]

If Bradley keeps playing the way he was playing, completely bossing the wing, you can just play someone on the right who can put it in the net, like Jota. That's why we scored a bunch without Salah, with Bradley in the team.

[Curly]

15 hours ago, joe_fishfish said:

I think The Guest is way too harsh there obviously but Trent is consistently shite defending at right back. The thing is, if our midfield is actually functioning, we only play about four or five games a season where the opposition is good enough to take advantage of that.

 

I don’t think he’d be anywhere near Szoboszlai’s best form if we played him as an 8. He’s definitely nowhere near someone like peak Fabinho if we play him as a 6. I think Stacksy has a good read on it when he says Trent clearly wants to play in midfield, and that’s the whole reason Klopp and Lijnders went all in on the box midfield / inverted right back thing.

Whether The Guest was harsh or not, bringing Gerrard into it was madness, never mind some of the claims about his deficiencies.

 

I had a conversation about 2 years ago with a red who informed me that Trent had already surpassed Gerrard and was a “generational talent” (one for the gab marcottis and fan podcast fans in the shiteness of modern football thread)

[Joso]

The fitness issue is an excuse I don’t buy. He has been lazy and arrogant for a number of months. Trent is not a terrible defender, but the issue now is he is far too passive without the ball. He doesn’t run, he jogs and walks to defend. He wasn’t always like this, so that is why I attribute this to arrogance and laziness. He needs to cut that shit out.

[Saintslfc13]

1 hour ago, Joso said:

The fitness issue is an excuse I don’t buy. He has been lazy and arrogant for a number of months. Trent is not a terrible defender, but the issue now is he is far too passive without the ball. He doesn’t run, he jogs and walks to defend. He wasn’t always like this, so that is why I attribute this to arrogance and laziness. He needs to cut that shit out.

I see the same thing with Trent although I'm sure he also wasn't completely match fit on Sunday. Whilst he's maybe never been the most technically sound defender, particularly in terms of positioning part of which is down to how we play, he used to sprint back and make a nuisance of himself. As a 1v1 defender I don't think he's as bad as many make him out to be when he's not just made a lung busting run to cover the space. The issue is that he doesn't seem to want to do that anymore and he also doesn't seem to want to bomb up the wing anymore which is odd because his crosses are amongst the best in the game today but of course that's part of why we shifted to the inverted fullback role for him.  That role also makes it easier for him to get back defensively but depending on who else is on the right it either sacrifices our width on that side or as we saw a lot last season it pulls Mo wide and therefore away from the goal. Neither of those are ideal, fortunately we bought Dom who can/will provide that width himself but when he's out we're stuck trying Gravenberch, Elliot, or Gakpo there and all of those have their cons when asked to do that.

I've said it before but somehow Trent seems to have become convinced he's better off trying to be an above average midfielder than being a world class fullback. It doesn't make any sense to me and it especially doesn't make any sense to me in this team under Jurgen Klopp who's always prized industry over creativity/freedom from the midfielders during his time here. I'm honestly not even sure what the best way to use Trent in midfield would be. Off the top of my head I'd say in a double pivot with a real destroyer type like Mascherano was alongside him. Is that really the move he wants to make though? Maybe it's just me but playmaker style Defensive Midfielder doesn't seem any more glamorous of a role than swashbuckling fullback.

[Jairzinho]

I don't know... to be the next Pirlo... or Xabi Alonso. 

 

I wonder if the latter would believe him to be tactically disciplined enough. 

[Barrington Womble]

14 hours ago, Saintslfc13 said:

I see the same thing with Trent although I'm sure he also wasn't completely match fit on Sunday. Whilst he's maybe never been the most technically sound defender, particularly in terms of positioning part of which is down to how we play, he used to sprint back and make a nuisance of himself. As a 1v1 defender I don't think he's as bad as many make him out to be when he's not just made a lung busting run to cover the space. The issue is that he doesn't seem to want to do that anymore and he also doesn't seem to want to bomb up the wing anymore which is odd because his crosses are amongst the best in the game today but of course that's part of why we shifted to the inverted fullback role for him.  That role also makes it easier for him to get back defensively but depending on who else is on the right it either sacrifices our width on that side or as we saw a lot last season it pulls Mo wide and therefore away from the goal. Neither of those are ideal, fortunately we bought Dom who can/will provide that width himself but when he's out we're stuck trying Gravenberch, Elliot, or Gakpo there and all of those have their cons when asked to do that.

I've said it before but somehow Trent seems to have become convinced he's better off trying to be an above average midfielder than being a world class fullback. It doesn't make any sense to me and it especially doesn't make any sense to me in this team under Jurgen Klopp who's always prized industry over creativity/freedom from the midfielders during his time here. I'm honestly not even sure what the best way to use Trent in midfield would be. Off the top of my head I'd say in a double pivot with a real destroyer type like Mascherano was alongside him. Is that really the move he wants to make though? Maybe it's just me but playmaker style Defensive Midfielder doesn't seem any more glamorous of a role than swashbuckling fullback.

Players care about international duties though, if we like it or not. And once the English media and Southgate had decided he couldn't defend, he was shot as a right back for England and couldn't even make a squad at one point. Playing in this hybrid role for Liverpool has allowed him to start playing regularly for England in midfield. And he won't believe he can only be an above average midfielder. He will think he can be the best in the world. 

[VladimirIlyich]

No. You don't build a team around any one individual. Jurgen has shown us that the team has to be far better than it's individual parts. Without this thinking we'd have won fuck all.

[ZonkoVille77]

9 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

No. You don't build a team around any one individual. Jurgen has shown us that the team has to be far better than it's individual parts. Without this thinking we'd have won fuck all.

 

Correct. As good as Trent is when he's got his head screwed on he does upset the balance of the side now. If he has further games like be did against Arsenal then he should be dropped and made to fight for his place. 

[Saintslfc13]

9 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Players care about international duties though, if we like it or not. And once the English media and Southgate had decided he couldn't defend, he was shot as a right back for England and couldn't even make a squad at one point. Playing in this hybrid role for Liverpool has allowed him to start playing regularly for England in midfield. And he won't believe he can only be an above average midfielder. He will think he can be the best in the world. 

The national side and media vitriol surrounding his place in it is definitely something I hadn't ever considered. Very good point and adds some perspective to why he seems so intent on the position change. Fair enough that he'll believe he can be the best in the world there. I don't see it at all based on his overall workrate over the last 12+ months, granted I don't know what Southgate is asking of England's midfield at the moment, that shit would've never flown in a Klopp midfield though. I suppose we'll have to see what the new manager thinks over this coming summer, whoever that is.
 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Saintslfc13 said:

The national side and media vitriol surrounding his place in it is definitely something I hadn't ever considered. Very good point and adds some perspective to why he seems so intent on the position change. Fair enough that he'll believe he can be the best in the world there. I don't see it at all based on his overall workrate over the last 12+ months, granted I don't know what Southgate is asking of England's midfield at the moment, that shit would've never flown in a Klopp midfield though. I suppose we'll have to see what the new manager thinks over this coming summer, whoever that is.
 

Here's the thing though. He has such talent, you might be right his work rate isn't what klopp wants from his midfield. But klopp wants water carriers at heart in his midfield. What's 100% clear is klopp wants to find a way to have Trent in his team, because despite whatever perceived negatives there are, klopp clearly thinks they're vastly outweighed by the quality he brings and he can afford that because his midfield 3 run themselves into the ground. 

[The Guest]

10 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Here's the thing though. He has such talent, you might be right his work rate isn't what klopp wants from his midfield. But klopp wants water carriers at heart in his midfield. What's 100% clear is klopp wants to find a way to have Trent in his team, because despite whatever perceived negatives there are, klopp clearly thinks they're vastly outweighed by the quality he brings and he can afford that because his midfield 3 run themselves into the ground. 

 

 “Perceived negatives” what an absolute classic that’s going to turn out to be.  I wish I could be there when it finally dawns on you what an absolute waster he is.  It’s going to happen sooner or later.  Some people will bury their heads in the sand until the last possible moment though.

 

“Klopp wants water carriers” I’m guessing that’s why he signed Thiago and let Wijnaldum go.  He’s also signed Mac Allister, Szoboslai and Gravenberch whilst making Jones one of the first choice midfielders.  All bang average footballers technically who do nothing but run and cover other players.  They should put you on Monday night football with this sort of expert analysis.  Do you even watch the matches now or do you just read the match reports from 5 years ago and go with that?

 

Probably Klopp’s biggest strength is the trust and faith he puts in his players.  It’s why so many of them go far above what anyone thought they would do and he has far more winners than losers.  It can also be his biggest weakness though.  It’s why it took Robertson half a season to displace Moreno despite the latter being a massive liability for a long time and it being obvious it needed doing.  It’s why we were heading into the season with Karius as first choice again after the champions league final until he completely crumbled in pre season.  It’s why we kept Lovren for so long.  Klopp is not infallible despite what a few on here seems to want to push.

 

In his time here he’s never had a player as talented as Trent who had this level of bad attitude, arrogance and stupidity all rolled into one.  Players have to pretty much catastrophically wound the team for him to cut them out.  The same is happening here.  Dave mentioned it on the pod about why do we have to wait until half time every game and the answer is because we stubbornly keep playing this stupid system because they think it’s the answer.  It’s got really similar parallels to the 08/09 season when Benitez was obsessed with negative one man up front football.  We came back to win games a record number of times after changing the tactics later in games.  Eventually though you can’t do it every game and it costs you.

[Kevin D]

I’m surprised to read people say that Trent gets it in the neck from the media.

 

To my mind, he has more favourable coverage than any Liverpool player since Owen.

[Smell The Glove]

32 minutes ago, The Guest said:

 

 because we stubbornly keep playing this stupid system because they think it’s the answer.  

I'm guessing they stubbornly think it's the answer because it's got us 74pts out of 96 since we started using it.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

8 hours ago, Smell The Glove said:

I'm guessing they stubbornly think it's the answer because it's got us 74pts out of 96 since we started using it.

This stupid system is also used by Arsenal, Spurs and City. 

[Fowlers God]

10 hours ago, Kevin D said:

I’m surprised to read people say that Trent gets it in the neck from the media.

 

To my mind, he has more favourable coverage than any Liverpool player since Owen.

 

Maybe 'our' media outlets; but Engerlund fans have wanted the likes of James and co ahead of him for years. All I hear about is negativity around Trent. 

 

And after Bradley has had some really fantastic displays its shit to see so many of our own fans turn on him so quickly. 

 

Whilst its ok to criticise objectively there is a distinct lack of respect around his name- Vice captain and all he has won...... And mentally still a kid. 

 

I saw his interview with CNN yesterday and the lad is talking about going out and winning the quadruple. Thats not someone who is just going out to kick a ball round a field and to pick up his wages at the end of it with no effort. 

 

He is a born winner  

[Carra_is_legend]

Academy product.

 

320 games, 22 goals and 85 assists.

25 years old. 

As a RB mostly.

 

He may be thick and lazy but to say he is not worth is just silly and stupid. 

[VladimirIlyich]

12 hours ago, The Guest said:

 

 “Perceived negatives” what an absolute classic that’s going to turn out to be.  I wish I could be there when it finally dawns on you what an absolute waster he is.  It’s going to happen sooner or later.  Some people will bury their heads in the sand until the last possible moment though.

 

“Klopp wants water carriers” I’m guessing that’s why he signed Thiago and let Wijnaldum go.  He’s also signed Mac Allister, Szoboslai and Gravenberch whilst making Jones one of the first choice midfielders.  All bang average footballers technically who do nothing but run and cover other players.  They should put you on Monday night football with this sort of expert analysis.  Do you even watch the matches now or do you just read the match reports from 5 years ago and go with that?

 

Probably Klopp’s biggest strength is the trust and faith he puts in his players.  It’s why so many of them go far above what anyone thought they would do and he has far more winners than losers.  It can also be his biggest weakness though.  It’s why it took Robertson half a season to displace Moreno despite the latter being a massive liability for a long time and it being obvious it needed doing.  It’s why we were heading into the season with Karius as first choice again after the champions league final until he completely crumbled in pre season.  It’s why we kept Lovren for so long.  Klopp is not infallible despite what a few on here seems to want to push.

 

In his time here he’s never had a player as talented as Trent who had this level of bad attitude, arrogance and stupidity all rolled into one.  Players have to pretty much catastrophically wound the team for him to cut them out.  The same is happening here.  Dave mentioned it on the pod about why do we have to wait until half time every game and the answer is because we stubbornly keep playing this stupid system because they think it’s the answer.  It’s got really similar parallels to the 08/09 season when Benitez was obsessed with negative one man up front football.  We came back to win games a record number of times after changing the tactics later in games.  Eventually though you can’t do it every game and it costs you.

Are you actually a Liverpool fan?

[TheHowieLama]

2 hours ago, Fowlers God said:

Whilst its ok to criticise objectively there is a distinct lack of respect around his name- Vice captain and all he has won...... And mentally still a kid. 

 

 

If after 7 years of top footy and as you said all the honors, VC etc. he is still a kid mentally - that is not a positive, 

 

[etho]

He will never be a world class midfielder. It really is to the detriment of his own career and legacy if he just decides he doesn’t want to play right back any more as he is world class and unique in world football as one. 

But we need more than playing lovely 50 yard balls and then standing there smelling yourself, he’s got to consistently do the hard work he’s more than capable of doing

 

And to be fair before his injury he was in very good form and doing that for the most part

[3 Stacks]

The Guest doesnt like the inverted thing because had we not implemented it, Trent might actually have been taken out of the team. The way he was playing before we made that switch was genuinely disgraceful. 

[The Guest]

I don’t like it because it’s an absolute shitfest to watch and is harming the team,  we are winning in spite of us starting this way every game.  A few expected NPC comments about “LoOk AT hOW maNY PoINts wE hAVE” completely ignoring how many times we’ve conceded first or put in a horror show in the first half but scraping wins when we change the tactics.  For me you either want Trent delivering crosses or in shooting positions.  This tactic change harms that whilst also not solving the defensive problem because out of possession he is still the right back.  We then look all over the place in possession because there’s one less full back for the defenders to work the ball to.

 

He goes out injured and we played the best football we have in years with an inexperienced young right back who is just willing to run up and down the pitch quickly.  It really is this simple.  People are bending over backwards to defend him with everything other than their own eyesight and bothering to look at what he’s doing.

[TheHowieLama]

Bradley's got quality - he's not just running around tbf.