Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Strontium]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

Nah -- thats a kop out Dog.

 

If you think he is, which you seem to, the answer is an easy yes.

If you feel some of his actions were/are, then it is still an easy yes.

Only after that would it become complex.

 

It's not a cop out, it's just there's no agreement on what is and isn't antisemitic.

 

Some people won't accept that anything short of outright hatred against Jews is antisemitism.

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It's not a cop out, it's just there's no agreement on what is and isn't antisemitic.

 

 

It is - the only definition needed to answer that question is the one you hold.

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

It is - the only definition needed to answer that question is the one you hold.

 

I've posted reams of stuff, and there's always a reason why XYZ isn't "real" antisemitism.

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I've posted reams of stuff, and there's always a reason why XYZ isn't "real" antisemitism.

So in your definition you believe he is anti-semitic?

 

 

[Bjornebye]

21 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

That's too complex a question to be answered by a simple yes or no response. But you knew that.

Arm are you really as thick as you appear? You either think he is or he isn't. Simple fucking question for your minuscule tory brain.

 

Do you think he is anti-semitic? 

[Strontium]

11 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

So in your definition you believe he is anti-semitic?

 

Let us say that there is a case to answer.

 

Jeremy’s greatest hits

So some specifics, as so many have spent the last four years demanding them from me: there are some now-infamous moments, some of which hold more weight for me, others less so. Some can be explained away, perhaps, but as an overall pattern of behaviour, as someone much smarter than me put it, he must be the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

I cannot overstate this enough — this is simply Corbyn’s personal history — it is not the sum total by any means of Labour’s antisemitism problem. It is simply background information. For me, the real story is in the handling of antisemitism cases within the party and the culture of intimidation towards Jews which has escalated since Corbyn became leader.

Support for and associations with terrorist groups and convicted terrorists

• Labour’s antisemitism crisis is often scathingly reduced to a single incident, on both sides of the argument, Corbyn calling Hamas & Hezbollah friends. That could indeed be explained away by the language of good faith and dialogue or as simply being about reaching out to solve the Middle East conflict. Many Jews feel differently, but let’s be generous. Here is Corbyn discussing the issue. Judge for yourself if you feel this is the temperament of a man who feels comfortable with his actions.
• However, further in that speech Corbyn says Hamas are a “force for peace and social justice”. The antisemitism question aside, this is a much less reasonable position, given that Hamas notoriously murders Palestinian citizens including members of the LGBT community. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are openly antisemitic, although Hezbollah has on occasion claimed to simply be anti-Zionist. These claims are generally considered to be false by experts (Gleis & Berti, Hezbollah and Hamas: A Comparative Study). Hezbollah engages in Holocaust denial and actively spreads antisemitic consipracy theories. The Hamas charter (1988) references killing Jews (Article 7, attributed to the Prophet Mohammed), Zionists starting wars for their own gain (Article 22) and cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as proof of Zionist ambitions of world domination (Article 32).
• Raed Salah, convicted in an Israeli court of incitement to violence, and more recently of incitement to terrorism is widely regarded as a hate preacher. In a rally in 2007 he is accused of saying “We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children’s blood. “Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.” Corbyn was lobbying on his behalf in 2012. A man who thinks Jews drink the blood of children. He called him a very honoured citizen and invited him to tea in Parliament. Corbyn also accused the “Zionist lobby” of being behind Salah’s deportation from Britain. That in itself is an inarguably antisemitic trope. It was not a question of process. Corbyn did not address nor condemn Salah’s comments. He made no good-faith attempt to find out what Jewish or national concerns were over Salah. He immediately assumed Salah was wholly innocent and a victim of a conspiracy by the “Zionist lobby”.
• Jawad Botmeh and Samar Alami were two men convicted for their part in the car bombing of the Israeli embassy and a Jewish charity in Kensington. Corbyn campaigned for their release.
• One of Corbyn’s numerous paid appearances on Iran’s Press TV (this one taking place seven months after the channel lost its Ofcom license for its role in the torture of a journalist) was with a convicted Hamas terrorist named Dr Abdul Aziz Umar who was given seven life sentences for helping to organise a Hamas suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 2003 that killed seven people. Umar provided a safe house for the terrorists and guarded the property while the bomber was fitted with a suicide belt. Umar was released a year prior to the conversation with Corbyn. This was as part of the controversial prisoner exchange arranged to release captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. On the topic, Corbyn said: “You have to ask the question why they are in prison in the first place” and “I’m glad that those who were released were released.” He continued: “I met many of the brothers, including the brother who’s been speaking here when they came out of prison, when I was in Doha earlier this year.” The full Press TV segment can be viewed here.
• Allegations emerged that in 2014, Corbyn was present at a wreath-laying ceremony which honoured senior figures of Fatah and the PLO, Salah Khalaf, who claimed in his memoir to have hand picked the gunmen who murdered eleven Israeli Olympic team members at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, and Atef Bseiso who was also alleged to have been involved in the planning of the attack. The Munich massacre holds special meaning in the Jewish psyche — this was an attack on unarmed civilians, outside of Israel, simply because they were Jewish and Israeli. The brutality with which some of the athletes were murdered and the decision to continue the games after a short suspension left Jews in shock.
  Corbyn had claimed that he was laying the wreath for victims of an Israeli air strike on the PLO headquarters in Tunisia, while the Daily Mail article alleged that Corbyn was not standing in the correct place for this to be the case. This claim alone is perhaps dubious as other reports have claimed that where Corbyn stood was typically where visiting dignitaries would have stood to honour victims of the air strike. However — an article written by Corbyn for Morning Star about the events was unearthed in which Corbyn stated that “wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991”. Corbyn has not confirmed to whom was referring (Bseiso was killed in Paris in 1992, and Khalaf was assassinated in Tunisia in 1991). Corbyn later issued a partial admission saying that he had been present at such a ceremony “but not involved”. A statement that for many British Jews has come to define Corbyn’s position on antisemitism. Channel 4 provided a thorough fact check of the circumstantial evidence, claims and counter-claims here. Once again, you can decide for yourselves.
   

  Corbyn and the Holocaust

• Corbyn remained a prominent supporter of an anti-israel organisation, Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), years after their organisers (including Paul Eisen) were exposed as Holocaust deniers, despite having claimed to have cut ties after Eisen’s views were exposed.
• In 2010, Corbyn hosted an event on Holocaust Memorial Day titled “Never Again For Anyone, From Auschwitz to Gaza”. At the event, Jewish Auschwitz survivor and anti-Zionist Hajo Meyer, who died in 2014 aged 90, compared Israeli policy to the Nazi regime. The main talk was entitled: The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes. While it is fair to say that it is a huge grey area when it comes to the involvement of a Holocaust survivor, Corbyn himself cannot claim such a history. The meeting was also addressed by phone from Gaza by Palestinian activist, Haidar Eid, who reportedly said: “The world was absolutely wrong to think that Nazism was defeated in 1945. Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims.” On this one occasion, Corbyn issued an extraordinarily rare apology, stating: “In the past, in pursuit of justice for the Palestinian people and peace in Israel/Palestine, I have on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject. I apologise for the concerns and anxiety that this has caused.”
• In 2011, Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, proposed an Early Day Motion to change the name of Holocaust Memorial Day to “Genocide Memorial Day — Never Again for Anyone”. The Early Day Motion was supported by Corbyn, amongst others, although support for EDMs politically means very little. What is more troubling is McDonnell, widely regarded as Corbyn’s closest political ally, proposing an EDM to effectively erase Jewishness from the memorialising of the Holocaust.
• Corbyn wrote a letter in defence of the Reverend Stephen Sizer after he shared a link to an article on a website which also contained antisemitic material and Holocaust denial. While it is not an unreasonable point that the reverend may not have been aware of other materials on the site, Corbyn went further, suggesting that Sizer was under attack by “certain individuals.” Sizer later went on to claim that Israel was responsible for 9/11, a well-known conspiracy theory with notoriously antisemitic undertones.
   

  Other notable incidents

• Muralgate. In 2012, a mural depicting deeply antisemitic imagery by Mear One appeared in East London. The mural showed hook-nosed men playing Monopoly on the backs of oppressed workers. Without context, it could have been a Nazi propaganda leaflet. When the artist Mear One posted on Facebook that it was being painted over, Corbyn replied: “Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera’s [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin”. Corbyn later claimed to have simply not looked properly and not to have noticed the antisemitic tropes immediately apparent in the image. Present but not involved. The mural is pictured below. Please make your own judgments.

• 

• In a 2013 speech, Corbyn (speaking about a group of “Zionists” who had attended a meeting in Parliament where a speech was being delivered by Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.K.) claimed that the “thankfully silent Zionists” in the audience had “two problems — one is they don’t want to study history and secondly, having lived in this country a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either.” Woah. For me, personally, this was the moment where Corbyn’s personal antisemitism became undeniable. Supporters argued that he might not have meant Jews, he might simply have meant political Zionists, (by which they mean supporters of the State of Israel) but if this was the case, why address them in such racialised terms? Here is an article by an anti-Zionist Jewish commentator on the subject which clarifies why this is a racist dogwhistle. To my mind, the othering statement of: “having lived here a very long time, probably all their lives” can only be read one way — despite being British citizens who have lived here their whole lives, they do not truly belong. They don’t understand English irony. They’re not like us. Corbyn’s supporters also tried to argue that he had been speaking about a specific group of Zionists, to which I pose the question — is a racist slur any less racist when aimed at individuals in a minority group, as opposed to a collective? Watch the video here.
• At a 2008 rally, Corbyn shared a stage with Ismail Patel, chair of the campaign Friends of Al-Aqsa, while he made the following comments: “We see the impact of Zionism on Palestinians, but it has had a devastating effect on the Jewish community itself: it has made them immoral in justice. How can you have a community that can celebrate 60 years of dispossession? How can you have a community that celebrates the killings of innocent Palestinian people? This is what Zionism has done to Judaic faith.” Patel then said that two groups, the latter being extremely controversial, Jews for Justice and the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Neturei Karta had “gone above Zionism and seen Zionism for what it is.” This is effectively stating that all Jews barring those two particular groups were immoral and celebrate the deaths of Palestinians. Corbyn is seen on stage waving at somebody in the crowd as the comments are made. The video can be seen here. Present, but not involved.
• In a 2016 Vice Documentary, Corbyn spoke about Jewish commentator Jonathan Freedland, calling a Guardian piece in which he said Labour had a problem with antisemitism under his leadership: “utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness”. Freedland had been at great pains in the article to say Corbyn himself isn’t antisemitic.
• In 2012, during one of his now-infamous appearances on Iran’s Press TV, Corbyn baselessly suggests “the hand of Israel” is behind a terror attack on Egyptian police (part of which took place on Israeli soil), alleging that it had been a false-flag attack to “kill Egyptians” and destabilise the relationship between Palestine and the Egyptian government.
• Corbyn wrote a foreword for a 1902 book, Imperialism: A Study, written by John Atkinson Hobson in 1902. In it, Hobson claimed European finance was controlled by “men of a single and peculiar race” and contained clearly antisemitic material. Corbyn made no reference to the antisemitic content, calling the book “brilliant”. While it is not unusual for political leaders to honour historical figures with problematic views, given that sections of the book’s arguments rely on antisemitic conspiracy theories, it was deeply troubling that Corbyn failed to acknowledge this or caveat it in any way when lending it his endorsement. Once again, this indicates that Corbyn either cannot recognise antisemitism or doesn’t care when he does.
• The Chakrabarti report, formally the Chakrabarti Inquiry, into antisemitism in the Labour Party was commissioned on 29 April 2016, after two specific incidents: the sharing of an antisemitic cartoon by MP Naz Shah and her subsequent suspension, and the defence of Shah by former London mayor Ken Livingstone. The cartoon suggested Israel be moved to the United States, and Livingstone’s defence included claims that Adolf Hitler was “supporting Zionism” by working for a Jewish homeland before he “went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.” The report was published on 30 June 2016 and while proposing several changes/guidelines around discrimination and in general and antisemitism in particular, concluded that the Labour party was “not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism,” although did find an “occasionally toxic atmosphere” and “too much clear evidence [of] ignorant attitudes.”
  The launch was overshadowed when activist Marc Wadsworth, on seeing Jewish MP Ruth Smeeth speaking to a Telegraph journalist, accused her of working “hand in hand” with that newspaper and right-wing media in general. Corbyn, who was present at the launch, said nothing in defence of Smeeth, who later said, “It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti’s report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing…a Labour Party under his stewardship cannot be a safe space for British Jews.” Corbyn said nothing as Smeeth was heckled and left the launch in tears. Present, but not involved. He was later seen chatting to Marc Wadsworth. Corbyn indicated that he had seen what had happened and sent Marc Wadsworth a text. The friendly exchange can be seen here.
  Shami Chakrabarti was appointed a Labour peer by Jeremy Corbyn in July 2016. She was the only Labour appointment to the House of Lords that month. The Home Affairs Select Committee called the Chakrabarti enquiry “compromised” and further stated that “the failure of the Labour Party consistently to deal with antisemitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-Semitic.”
• The IHRA definition of antisemitism. Over the summer of 2018, a huge row erupted in the Labour Party when, having promised to adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism, the Labour Party instead adopted a modified version, which had been altered without consulting any Jewish groups within the party.
  The International Holocaust Rememberance Alliance (IHRA) has created a standardised definition of antisemitism, recognised by over 30 countries and some 130 UK local councils, the police, and the Crown Prosecution Service. No definition is perfect and, within the Jewish community, it has created debate — but the done thing is to include Jewish people in debates about what defines their own oppression. In fact, the McPherson Report specifies the necessity for minority groups to define their own oppression.
  The IHRA definition specifies 11 non-binding but illustrative examples of “contemporary antisemitism” and leaves the door open to more being added. Labour adopted a modified version, omitting the examples pertaining to “dual loyalty” accusations (Example 6), claiming the State of Israel is a racist endeavour (Example 7), and comparing actions of Israel to those of Nazi Germany (Example 10). “Dual loyalties” is mentioned in the Labour definition, but further down the document, and is simply called out as being “wrong.” The Labour definition further states that a given statement is not antisemitic unless “there is evidence of antisemitic intent.”
  In December 2018, after months of tension, a time I personally believe solidified the “us and them” narrative against Jews in the minds of many activists, the Labour party adopted the full IHRA definition of antisemitism. Corbyn personally spent several hours in the final meeting still trying to attach his own accompanying statement, which was ultimately rejected. There was renewed criticism by Jewish groups since the announcement was accompanied by a statement saying “this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians,”

[TheHowieLama]

@Strontium Dog™Mate - just say yes - it looks weird otherwise

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Let us say that there is a case to answer.

 

Jeremy’s greatest hits

So some specifics, as so many have spent the last four years demanding them from me: there are some now-infamous moments, some of which hold more weight for me, others less so. Some can be explained away, perhaps, but as an overall pattern of behaviour, as someone much smarter than me put it, he must be the unluckiest anti-racist in the world.

I cannot overstate this enough — this is simply Corbyn’s personal history — it is not the sum total by any means of Labour’s antisemitism problem. It is simply background information. For me, the real story is in the handling of antisemitism cases within the party and the culture of intimidation towards Jews which has escalated since Corbyn became leader.

Support for and associations with terrorist groups and convicted terrorists

• Labour’s antisemitism crisis is often scathingly reduced to a single incident, on both sides of the argument, Corbyn calling Hamas & Hezbollah friends. That could indeed be explained away by the language of good faith and dialogue or as simply being about reaching out to solve the Middle East conflict. Many Jews feel differently, but let’s be generous. Here is Corbyn discussing the issue. Judge for yourself if you feel this is the temperament of a man who feels comfortable with his actions.
• However, further in that speech Corbyn says Hamas are a “force for peace and social justice”. The antisemitism question aside, this is a much less reasonable position, given that Hamas notoriously murders Palestinian citizens including members of the LGBT community. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are openly antisemitic, although Hezbollah has on occasion claimed to simply be anti-Zionist. These claims are generally considered to be false by experts (Gleis & Berti, Hezbollah and Hamas: A Comparative Study). Hezbollah engages in Holocaust denial and actively spreads antisemitic consipracy theories. The Hamas charter (1988) references killing Jews (Article 7, attributed to the Prophet Mohammed), Zionists starting wars for their own gain (Article 22) and cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as proof of Zionist ambitions of world domination (Article 32).
• Raed Salah, convicted in an Israeli court of incitement to violence, and more recently of incitement to terrorism is widely regarded as a hate preacher. In a rally in 2007 he is accused of saying “We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children’s blood. “Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.” Corbyn was lobbying on his behalf in 2012. A man who thinks Jews drink the blood of children. He called him a very honoured citizen and invited him to tea in Parliament. Corbyn also accused the “Zionist lobby” of being behind Salah’s deportation from Britain. That in itself is an inarguably antisemitic trope. It was not a question of process. Corbyn did not address nor condemn Salah’s comments. He made no good-faith attempt to find out what Jewish or national concerns were over Salah. He immediately assumed Salah was wholly innocent and a victim of a conspiracy by the “Zionist lobby”.
• Jawad Botmeh and Samar Alami were two men convicted for their part in the car bombing of the Israeli embassy and a Jewish charity in Kensington. Corbyn campaigned for their release.
• One of Corbyn’s numerous paid appearances on Iran’s Press TV (this one taking place seven months after the channel lost its Ofcom license for its role in the torture of a journalist) was with a convicted Hamas terrorist named Dr Abdul Aziz Umar who was given seven life sentences for helping to organise a Hamas suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 2003 that killed seven people. Umar provided a safe house for the terrorists and guarded the property while the bomber was fitted with a suicide belt. Umar was released a year prior to the conversation with Corbyn. This was as part of the controversial prisoner exchange arranged to release captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. On the topic, Corbyn said: “You have to ask the question why they are in prison in the first place” and “I’m glad that those who were released were released.” He continued: “I met many of the brothers, including the brother who’s been speaking here when they came out of prison, when I was in Doha earlier this year.” The full Press TV segment can be viewed here.
• Allegations emerged that in 2014, Corbyn was present at a wreath-laying ceremony which honoured senior figures of Fatah and the PLO, Salah Khalaf, who claimed in his memoir to have hand picked the gunmen who murdered eleven Israeli Olympic team members at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, and Atef Bseiso who was also alleged to have been involved in the planning of the attack. The Munich massacre holds special meaning in the Jewish psyche — this was an attack on unarmed civilians, outside of Israel, simply because they were Jewish and Israeli. The brutality with which some of the athletes were murdered and the decision to continue the games after a short suspension left Jews in shock.
  Corbyn had claimed that he was laying the wreath for victims of an Israeli air strike on the PLO headquarters in Tunisia, while the Daily Mail article alleged that Corbyn was not standing in the correct place for this to be the case. This claim alone is perhaps dubious as other reports have claimed that where Corbyn stood was typically where visiting dignitaries would have stood to honour victims of the air strike. However — an article written by Corbyn for Morning Star about the events was unearthed in which Corbyn stated that “wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991”. Corbyn has not confirmed to whom was referring (Bseiso was killed in Paris in 1992, and Khalaf was assassinated in Tunisia in 1991). Corbyn later issued a partial admission saying that he had been present at such a ceremony “but not involved”. A statement that for many British Jews has come to define Corbyn’s position on antisemitism. Channel 4 provided a thorough fact check of the circumstantial evidence, claims and counter-claims here. Once again, you can decide for yourselves.
   

  Corbyn and the Holocaust

• Corbyn remained a prominent supporter of an anti-israel organisation, Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), years after their organisers (including Paul Eisen) were exposed as Holocaust deniers, despite having claimed to have cut ties after Eisen’s views were exposed.
• In 2010, Corbyn hosted an event on Holocaust Memorial Day titled “Never Again For Anyone, From Auschwitz to Gaza”. At the event, Jewish Auschwitz survivor and anti-Zionist Hajo Meyer, who died in 2014 aged 90, compared Israeli policy to the Nazi regime. The main talk was entitled: The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes. While it is fair to say that it is a huge grey area when it comes to the involvement of a Holocaust survivor, Corbyn himself cannot claim such a history. The meeting was also addressed by phone from Gaza by Palestinian activist, Haidar Eid, who reportedly said: “The world was absolutely wrong to think that Nazism was defeated in 1945. Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims.” On this one occasion, Corbyn issued an extraordinarily rare apology, stating: “In the past, in pursuit of justice for the Palestinian people and peace in Israel/Palestine, I have on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject. I apologise for the concerns and anxiety that this has caused.”
• In 2011, Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, proposed an Early Day Motion to change the name of Holocaust Memorial Day to “Genocide Memorial Day — Never Again for Anyone”. The Early Day Motion was supported by Corbyn, amongst others, although support for EDMs politically means very little. What is more troubling is McDonnell, widely regarded as Corbyn’s closest political ally, proposing an EDM to effectively erase Jewishness from the memorialising of the Holocaust.
• Corbyn wrote a letter in defence of the Reverend Stephen Sizer after he shared a link to an article on a website which also contained antisemitic material and Holocaust denial. While it is not an unreasonable point that the reverend may not have been aware of other materials on the site, Corbyn went further, suggesting that Sizer was under attack by “certain individuals.” Sizer later went on to claim that Israel was responsible for 9/11, a well-known conspiracy theory with notoriously antisemitic undertones.
   

  Other notable incidents

• Muralgate. In 2012, a mural depicting deeply antisemitic imagery by Mear One appeared in East London. The mural showed hook-nosed men playing Monopoly on the backs of oppressed workers. Without context, it could have been a Nazi propaganda leaflet. When the artist Mear One posted on Facebook that it was being painted over, Corbyn replied: “Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera’s [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin”. Corbyn later claimed to have simply not looked properly and not to have noticed the antisemitic tropes immediately apparent in the image. Present but not involved. The mural is pictured below. Please make your own judgments.

• 

• In a 2013 speech, Corbyn (speaking about a group of “Zionists” who had attended a meeting in Parliament where a speech was being delivered by Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.K.) claimed that the “thankfully silent Zionists” in the audience had “two problems — one is they don’t want to study history and secondly, having lived in this country a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either.” Woah. For me, personally, this was the moment where Corbyn’s personal antisemitism became undeniable. Supporters argued that he might not have meant Jews, he might simply have meant political Zionists, (by which they mean supporters of the State of Israel) but if this was the case, why address them in such racialised terms? Here is an article by an anti-Zionist Jewish commentator on the subject which clarifies why this is a racist dogwhistle. To my mind, the othering statement of: “having lived here a very long time, probably all their lives” can only be read one way — despite being British citizens who have lived here their whole lives, they do not truly belong. They don’t understand English irony. They’re not like us. Corbyn’s supporters also tried to argue that he had been speaking about a specific group of Zionists, to which I pose the question — is a racist slur any less racist when aimed at individuals in a minority group, as opposed to a collective? Watch the video here.
• At a 2008 rally, Corbyn shared a stage with Ismail Patel, chair of the campaign Friends of Al-Aqsa, while he made the following comments: “We see the impact of Zionism on Palestinians, but it has had a devastating effect on the Jewish community itself: it has made them immoral in justice. How can you have a community that can celebrate 60 years of dispossession? How can you have a community that celebrates the killings of innocent Palestinian people? This is what Zionism has done to Judaic faith.” Patel then said that two groups, the latter being extremely controversial, Jews for Justice and the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Neturei Karta had “gone above Zionism and seen Zionism for what it is.” This is effectively stating that all Jews barring those two particular groups were immoral and celebrate the deaths of Palestinians. Corbyn is seen on stage waving at somebody in the crowd as the comments are made. The video can be seen here. Present, but not involved.
• In a 2016 Vice Documentary, Corbyn spoke about Jewish commentator Jonathan Freedland, calling a Guardian piece in which he said Labour had a problem with antisemitism under his leadership: “utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness”. Freedland had been at great pains in the article to say Corbyn himself isn’t antisemitic.
• In 2012, during one of his now-infamous appearances on Iran’s Press TV, Corbyn baselessly suggests “the hand of Israel” is behind a terror attack on Egyptian police (part of which took place on Israeli soil), alleging that it had been a false-flag attack to “kill Egyptians” and destabilise the relationship between Palestine and the Egyptian government.
• Corbyn wrote a foreword for a 1902 book, Imperialism: A Study, written by John Atkinson Hobson in 1902. In it, Hobson claimed European finance was controlled by “men of a single and peculiar race” and contained clearly antisemitic material. Corbyn made no reference to the antisemitic content, calling the book “brilliant”. While it is not unusual for political leaders to honour historical figures with problematic views, given that sections of the book’s arguments rely on antisemitic conspiracy theories, it was deeply troubling that Corbyn failed to acknowledge this or caveat it in any way when lending it his endorsement. Once again, this indicates that Corbyn either cannot recognise antisemitism or doesn’t care when he does.
• The Chakrabarti report, formally the Chakrabarti Inquiry, into antisemitism in the Labour Party was commissioned on 29 April 2016, after two specific incidents: the sharing of an antisemitic cartoon by MP Naz Shah and her subsequent suspension, and the defence of Shah by former London mayor Ken Livingstone. The cartoon suggested Israel be moved to the United States, and Livingstone’s defence included claims that Adolf Hitler was “supporting Zionism” by working for a Jewish homeland before he “went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.” The report was published on 30 June 2016 and while proposing several changes/guidelines around discrimination and in general and antisemitism in particular, concluded that the Labour party was “not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism,” although did find an “occasionally toxic atmosphere” and “too much clear evidence [of] ignorant attitudes.”
  The launch was overshadowed when activist Marc Wadsworth, on seeing Jewish MP Ruth Smeeth speaking to a Telegraph journalist, accused her of working “hand in hand” with that newspaper and right-wing media in general. Corbyn, who was present at the launch, said nothing in defence of Smeeth, who later said, “It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti’s report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing…a Labour Party under his stewardship cannot be a safe space for British Jews.” Corbyn said nothing as Smeeth was heckled and left the launch in tears. Present, but not involved. He was later seen chatting to Marc Wadsworth. Corbyn indicated that he had seen what had happened and sent Marc Wadsworth a text. The friendly exchange can be seen here.
  Shami Chakrabarti was appointed a Labour peer by Jeremy Corbyn in July 2016. She was the only Labour appointment to the House of Lords that month. The Home Affairs Select Committee called the Chakrabarti enquiry “compromised” and further stated that “the failure of the Labour Party consistently to deal with antisemitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-Semitic.”
• The IHRA definition of antisemitism. Over the summer of 2018, a huge row erupted in the Labour Party when, having promised to adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism, the Labour Party instead adopted a modified version, which had been altered without consulting any Jewish groups within the party.
  The International Holocaust Rememberance Alliance (IHRA) has created a standardised definition of antisemitism, recognised by over 30 countries and some 130 UK local councils, the police, and the Crown Prosecution Service. No definition is perfect and, within the Jewish community, it has created debate — but the done thing is to include Jewish people in debates about what defines their own oppression. In fact, the McPherson Report specifies the necessity for minority groups to define their own oppression.
  The IHRA definition specifies 11 non-binding but illustrative examples of “contemporary antisemitism” and leaves the door open to more being added. Labour adopted a modified version, omitting the examples pertaining to “dual loyalty” accusations (Example 6), claiming the State of Israel is a racist endeavour (Example 7), and comparing actions of Israel to those of Nazi Germany (Example 10). “Dual loyalties” is mentioned in the Labour definition, but further down the document, and is simply called out as being “wrong.” The Labour definition further states that a given statement is not antisemitic unless “there is evidence of antisemitic intent.”
  In December 2018, after months of tension, a time I personally believe solidified the “us and them” narrative against Jews in the minds of many activists, the Labour party adopted the full IHRA definition of antisemitism. Corbyn personally spent several hours in the final meeting still trying to attach his own accompanying statement, which was ultimately rejected. There was renewed criticism by Jewish groups since the announcement was accompanied by a statement saying “this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians,”

Ok so not a single shred of evidence that he is anti-semitic. Not one. Anti-Israel isn't anti-semitism. 

 

So SD yes or no is he anti-semitic? 

 

He won't answer because he doesn't think Corbyn is anti-semitic but knows admitting that pretty much fucks up half his arguments over the last two years. 

[Strontium]

@TheHowieLama See what I mean? 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

@TheHowieLama See what I mean? 

Stop deflecting like a Tory. Can you answer the question ? Or are you utterly incapable of being honest? 

[Strontium]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Can you answer the question ? Or are you utterly incapable of being honest 

 

I post reams of evidence of antisemitism and you deny that any of it is antisemitism. So what's the point of any of this? Your mind is made up. 

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

@TheHowieLama See what I mean? 

Yeah, but if you believe everything you just posted is anti-semitic then it looks really weird to not be able to say, "Yes".

I am not sure I understand your reticence there.

 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

 Your mind is made up. 

What about yours?

[Strontium]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

I am not sure I understand your reticence there.

 

I like not having a negative rep score.

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I like not having a negative rep score.

I have a feeling you would get more reps for being honest. 

 

If you really want to boost it -- POST A BREAKFAST!!

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I post reams of evidence of antisemitism and you deny that any of it is antisemitism. So what's the point of any of this? Your mind is made up. 

My mind is made up? I don't think he is anti-semitic. Do you? 

[Bjornebye]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

I have a feeling you would get more reps for being honest. 

 

If you really want to boost it -- POST A BREAKFAST!!

He is incapable of being honest.

 

Oh fuck me can you imagine what an SD breakfast looks like. The site would get shut down. 

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I have a feeling you would get more reps for being honest. 

 

I've been nothing but honest in my time here. Being non-committal is not dishonesty.

 

Already have about half a dozen negs today for talking about racist statements and actions by Corbyn. Multiply that by hundreds and you're half way to understanding my experiences.

 

Some people won't be happy until they force us all out of the country.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I've been nothing but honest in my time here. Being non-committal is not dishonesty.

 

Already have about half a dozen negs today for talking about racist statements and actions by Corbyn. Multiply that by hundreds and you're half way to understanding my experiences.

 

Some people won't be happy until they force us all out of the country.

Absolute cunt of a post. You are fucking vermin you. Incapable of answering a direct question and then slandering people on the forum in your usual pontificating manner. No wonder most people can't stand you.

[TheHowieLama]

@Strontium Dog™ So you got nothing to lose - answer the question and see what happens.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

God, are there imbeciles still going on about Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer and trying to make him out as an antisemite? It's absolutely disgusting. They never mention the nuanced comparison he makes between Israel. In his own words, he was:

 

“pained by the parallels I observe between my experiences in Germany prior to 1939 and those suffered by Palestinians today.”

 

Read his book. He makes perfectly justifiable comparisons. 

 

I wonder if that article's author ever clarified whether Louise Ellman attended this same event, or not? It still remains one of life's great mysteries! 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Strontium Dog™ So you got nothing to lose - answer the question and see what happens.

He is from Tory stock. Answering a direct question that doesn't suit his warped lying agenda is like kryptonite to him. 

[Strontium]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Absolute cunt of a post. You are fucking vermin you. Incapable of answering a direct question and then slandering people on the forum. No wonder most people can't stand you. 

 

Vermin today. Subhuman the other day.

 

Tell me, do you dehumanise all Jews, or just the ones who have the courage to stand up to you?

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

He is incapable of being honest.

 

Oh fuck me can you imagine what an SD breakfast looks like. The site would get shut down. 

So are you saying a Jew is incapable of being honest AND makes a shit breakfast??

Is that what you are saying?

 

Thin ice.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Nelly-Torres said:

God, are there imbeciles still going on about Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer and trying to make him out as an antisemite? It's absolutely disgusting. They never mention the nuanced comparison he makes between Israel. In his own words, he was:

 

“pained by the parallels I observe between my experiences in Germany prior to 1939 and those suffered by Palestinians today.”

 

Read his book. He makes perfectly justifiable comparisons. 

 

I wonder if that article's author ever clarified whether Louise Ellman attended this same event, or not? It still remains one of life's great mysteries! 

But you are not allowed to call Israel out for genocide remember! Its anti-semitic and they get a free pass because of the holocaust despite the fact that barely any of the jews who terribly died in it are Israeli.