Howard Webb

[Major Tom]

No, not outright. But I think UEFA and FIFA will listen and take on comments from managers and people with sway in world football. Whether or not Fergusons praise for Webb helped in him getting those gigs, you can be damn sure he'll have congratulated Webb on getting them while also telling him that he recommended him highly to UEFA and FIFA. and it was only right he got those matches, etc, etc.

 

OK.

 

Of all of the theories on here regarding Ferguson and referees, yours is the closest to what I think.

 

I just know you will be pleased.

[JohnnyH]

OK.

 

Of all of the theories on here regarding Ferguson and referees, yours is the closest to what I think.

 

I just know you will be pleased.

 

I’m having a nice cup of coffee now and so have decided to dedicate it to you.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

OK.

 

Of all of the theories on here regarding Ferguson and referees, yours is the closest to what I think.

 

I just know you will be pleased.

 

"of all the theories"? That is the only theory! JohnnyH has just articulated it well.

 

Everybody thinks it all to do with power and influence. Few are subscribed to the notion of brown paper bags being passed around.

[Kevin D]

There is always one person soft enough to take the bait.

[xerxes]

But then we look back at the home game in September and somehow your argument falls apart quite ramatically.

Your opening claim, and the rest of your post, which I pretty much agree with, don't quite stack.

 

Referee's decisions undoubtedly do affect games. As a referee would you rather risk the wrath of whiskeynose, or Brendan? Who has more influence at the FA the mancs or FSG? They will certaily be sub-cosnscious factors.Agreed.

 

Extrapolating that to suggest that Webb is corrupt or incompetent is a nonsense, as some, not you, claim. If anyone seriously believes that don't bother with that game, or any PL game.

 

A key factor in KK's demise was his public position that we were fine, it was factors outside of his control, which were against us. The problem with that position ( which Rodgers has wisely avoided) is that players stop believeing that they can influence the result.

 

I genuinely believe that, against the leakiest Man u defence in a long time, we can score, and beat them, irrespective of refereeing decisions. Others don't, and that is fine.

 

If, after the game, we have lost because of a dubious call, I will be moaning with everyone. But I make no apology for not taking the losers stance that "the ref is against us" as a default excuse in advance.The Mancs will be loving some of the drivel trotted out on this thread. No belief that Suarez wil outscore, van persie, that Gerrard can boss the midfield, that Agger and skrts are a better defensive two than man u's or that Reina on his day is capable of shutting out them better than de Gea is us - instead some are moaning about the ref..............................

[Dr Nowt]

 

We will win or lose on the quality of our display. Getting in excuses in advance is small time and unnecessary.

 

We have enough to win this' date=' whoever is refereeing.[/quote']

 

Did Father Christmas bring everything you asked for this year, my little sponge finger?

[ZonkoVille77]

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think it’s pre-planned. I think it’s done instinctively. I also think that on occasion a decision may not be given out of fear of where he’ll be reffing next week if he gives a questionable decision that benefits the other team. Because of this the referee then errs on the side of caution and doesn’t give it, where he wouldn’t hesitate to give it the other way. I don’t think there’s outright cheating, I just think there is a certain amount of extra pressure on a ref when involved in a Man Utd game that means they will think twice before giving a questionable decision against them, but not hesitate to give something for them. The home game for us against the Mancs earlier this season is the perfect example. Evan’s tackle was actually worse then Shelveys, but Shelvey was punted. Their penalty was very borderline, but they were awarded it. Our penalty was also a not 100% clear-cut at normal speed with only one viewing but it was a lot clearer then theirs, yet we weren’t given it.

 

I think black and white decisions will be given both for and against when the ref sees them, but questionable ones won’t.

 

Fair enough I guess. I know we get a few at home against "lesser" teams so it might balance itself out. But if it's in any way borderline at OT then they'll get the benefit (even if its totally the wrong call)and that drives me crazy.

[Kevin D]

Your opening claim, and the rest of your post, which I pretty much agree with, don't quite stack.

 

Referee's decisions undoubtedly do affect games. As a referee would you rather risk the wrath of whiskeynose, or Brendan? Who has more influence at the FA the mancs or FSG? They will certaily be sub-cosnscious factors.Agreed.

 

Extrapolating that to suggest that Webb is corrupt or incompetent is a nonsense, as some, not you, claim. If anyone seriously believes that don't bother with that game, or any PL game.

 

A key factor in KK's demise was his public position that we were fine, it was factors outside of his control, which were against us. The problem with that position ( which Rodgers has wisely avoided) is that players stop believeing that they can influence the result.

 

I genuinely believe that, against the leakiest Man u defence in a long time, we can score, and beat them, irrespective of refereeing decisions. Others don't, and that is fine.

 

If, after the game, we have lost because of a dubious call, I will be moaning with everyone. But I make no apology for not taking the losers stance that "the ref is against us" as a default excuse in advance.The Mancs will be loving some of the drivel trotted out on this thread. No belief that Suarez wil outscore, van persie, that Gerrard can boss the midfield, that Agger and skrts are a better defensive two than man u's or that Reina on his day is capable of shutting out them better than de Gea is us - instead some are moaning about the ref..............................

 

Do you think there's a slight possibility that has something to do with the thread being entitled "Howard Webb"?

[Dr Nowt]

Spot on, a great deal of it's definitely that referees have to make a decision in a heartbeat, so anything which instinctively makes them reticent to go one way simply has to have an impact. More to the point, the person doing the influencing knows this only too well.

 

A good mate of mine is a lifelong United fan. Several years back I was telling him how I'd read a piece in the paper about a referee (can't recall which one) saying Benitez wasn't well liked by them as he was cold and stand-offish, which several took as a superior attitude. "Sir Alex", on the other hand, knew them all by first name and made a great effort to make them feel important and included.

 

My mate replied that it was fairly common knowledge among their fans how Ferguson took it upon himself to know the names and particulars of referee's families; asking after them, showing great interest in their progress and even going as far as arranging presents and treats for them at significant milestones. He concluded that Taggart was much closer to referees than his regular public haranguing of them would suggest. He was absolutely clear he felt this was yet another example of a crafty, win at all costs mentality; always on the look out for any angle that may provide a few extra percent chance of victory.

 

Leaving aside for a moment my aversion to the cunt, which is so strong it suggests a physical allergy, much like Clough before him if McTumour's approach was based solely on fear it would never have been half as successful. He'd roll around in shit to fight over a point I'm sure, but he's equally as versed in the carrot as he is the stick.

 

His ruthless use of both explains a lot about his current death grip on English football, over and above his obvious ability.

[DaveT]

Your opening claim, and the rest of your post, which I pretty much agree with, don't quite stack.

 

Referee's decisions undoubtedly do affect games. As a referee would you rather risk the wrath of whiskeynose, or Brendan? Who has more influence at the FA the mancs or FSG? They will certaily be sub-cosnscious factors.Agreed.

 

Extrapolating that to suggest that Webb is corrupt or incompetent is a nonsense, as some, not you, claim. If anyone seriously believes that don't bother with that game, or any PL game.

 

A key factor in KK's demise was his public position that we were fine, it was factors outside of his control, which were against us. The problem with that position ( which Rodgers has wisely avoided) is that players stop believeing that they can influence the result.

 

I genuinely believe that, against the leakiest Man u defence in a long time, we can score, and beat them, irrespective of refereeing decisions. Others don't, and that is fine.

 

If, after the game, we have lost because of a dubious call, I will be moaning with everyone. But I make no apology for not taking the losers stance that "the ref is against us" as a default excuse in advance.The Mancs will be loving some of the drivel trotted out on this thread. No belief that Suarez wil outscore, van persie, that Gerrard can boss the midfield, that Agger and skrts are a better defensive two than man u's or that Reina on his day is capable of shutting out them better than de Gea is us - instead some are moaning about the ref..............................

 

I admire your optimism, but sadly can't share it. The point here is not about getting in early excuses, but that this appointment once again raises the issue of Webb's clear and ongoing anti-Liverpool/pro ManU bias and why it continues to be tolerated. I am with the consensus on this site in that I don't believe there are brown envelopes changing hands but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence around to suggest that referees think twice about giving contentious decisions against them and that they genuinely fear some kind of retribution if they do so. As for Webb, it's not difficult to think that he might have extra reason to NEVER give us the benefit of the doubt in any contentious circumstances.

Off the top of my head, I can think of any number of instances where he's ruled against us in controversial circumstances....

- penalty against Mascherano for pulling back Valencia, replays show foul clearly outside the area, result penalty

- penalty against Agger in Cup tie for 'foul' on Berbatov - extremely flakey

- red card for Gerrard in same match for nothing tackle on Carrick

- Emirates a couple of years back... Fabregas, standing on edge of penalty area, clearly blocks a free-kick with his hand way above his head, nothing given

- even the penalty he gave at OT when Evans blatantly dragged down Torres, he clearly hesitated and it was only the linesman that forced the decision on him

- vs Arsenal, Gallas hacks down Gerrard at knee height in penalty area at Anny Road end, guess what?

- vs spurs, final home game of 2011, Flanagan leans into Pienaar, outside area, Webb gives penalty

- vs Stoke, corner kick,Shawcross has Carroll in headlock, wrestles him to the ground - immediately after Webb had warned him!...no penalty

 

If anybody can point to any debatable decisions which Webb has actually given to us, feel free.......

 

The fact that, apparently, bookies have been changing their odds since this appointment speaks volumes and underlines that Webb's bias is just common knowledge in the football world.

[Dr Nowt]

Spot on, a big part of it's definitely that referees have to make their decisions within seconds, so anything which instinctively makes them reticent to give it a particular way has an important impact sub-consciously. More to the point, the person habitually doing the influencing knows this only too well.

 

A good mate of mine is a lifelong United fan. Several years back I was telling him how I'd read a piece in the paper about a referee (can't recall which one) saying Benitez wasn't well liked by them as he was cold and stand-offish, which several took as a superior attitude. "Sir Alex", on the other hand, knew them all by first name and made a great effort to make them feel important and included.

 

My mate replied that it was fairly common knowledge among their fans how Ferguson took it upon himself to know the names and particulars of referee's families; asking after them, showing great interest in their progress and even going as far as arranging presents and treats for them at significant milestones. He concluded that Taggart was much closer to referees than his regular public haranguing of them would suggest. He was absolutely clear he felt this was yet another example of a crafty, win at all costs mentality; always on the look out for any angle that may provide a few extra percent chance of victory.

 

Leaving aside for a moment my aversion to the cunt, which is so strong it suggests a physical allergy, much like Clough before him if McTumour's approach was based solely on fear it would never have been as successful. He'd roll around in shit to fight over a point I'm sure, but he's equally as versed in the carrot as he is the stick.

 

His ruthless use of both in manipulating the English press, referees and football authorities explains a lot about his current death grip on our football, over and above, through very gritted teeth, his obvious immense ability. I've always felt the disparity between their relative lack of success in Europe during a 20 plus year domestic stranglehold versus our domination there during our 70's and 80's pomp points to this.

[ZonkoVille77]

Terry Terrry, so good he does everything twice!

[Dr Nowt]

Terry Terrry, so good he does everything twice!

 

Combine a smart phone with a dopey user and it's inevitable!

[ZonkoVille77]

Combine a smart phone with a dopey user and it's inevitable!

 

Haha. that's the crap with posting on a phone. Shit goes crazy sometimes.

[xerxes]

Webb's clear and ongoing anti-Liverpool/pro ManU bias and why it continues to be tolerated.

 

I do not believe that there is the overt pro and anti bias that you suggest.

 

There really is nothing in it for him to be "anti-Liverpool" or any other team.

 

The pro man u bias, as others have suggested is considerably more subtle than overt and relates to the psycholgy of influence and success rather than Man u per se.

 

Terry Terry's post really is worth reading twice. In our heyday that heady combination of success ,and the quiet diplomacy of Robinson, worked for us too.

[Major Tom]

"of all the theories"? That is the only theory! JohnnyH has just articulated it well.

 

 

Not even close to being true, FEG. There are plenty of people who think the FA are corrupt, Ferguson and Gill are behind the refereeing appointments, the FA want Utd to win in order to fill their coffers etc etc.

 

It is those sorts of theories I don't agree with. And have taken grief off the likes of yourself for saying so.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Major Tom

[xerxes]

a decision may not be given out of fear of where he’ll be reffing next week if he gives a questionable decision that benefits the other team.

 

I think that is over stating the case.

 

It is unquestionbaly true that a wrong call against Man U/ van Persie is big news so a ref will think twice. The ramifications of a wrong call against us are far less.

 

I do not believe that in the heat of battle Webb, or any other PL ref, consciously is trying to help Man U, or disadvantage us. A decision in favour of an opposing team, or against Man u inevitably has to be more robust because of the levels of scrutiny applied- but that is subtly different from overt pro/anti bias.

[Gym Beglin]

Webb will fuck us in the ass.

 

But I'm ok with it, it's normal and it's futile to fight it. Just let his bulbous head slide straight in and smash your colon up.

[El Rojo]

I do not believe that there is the overt pro and anti bias that you suggest.

 

There really is nothing in it for him to be "anti-Liverpool" or any other team.

 

The pro man u bias, as others have suggested is considerably more subtle than overt and relates to the psycholgy of influence and success rather than Man u per se.

 

Terry Terry's post really is worth reading twice. In our heyday that heady combination of success ,and the quiet diplomacy of Robinson, worked for us too.

 

Jesus, we could have done with some of that over the last few years.

[ngogswilly]

What really gets me is the fact that 98% of people one way or another will admit its not right.

 

Whether its brown envelopes, pressure, bias, whatever the case... Most people will admit what goes on is not right.

 

Yet many people will still try and fucking sit there and say "So what, we just need to get on with it".

 

Does anybody who says that actually stop and think how fucking insane that stance is.

 

Yeah, so what if you're not playing on a level playing field in a competitive sport which is supposed to be fair and equal. If thats the attitude fans are going to take we may aswell just pack the whole fucking thing in.

 

People who say that are fucking clueless.

[Jairzinho]

What really gets me is the fact that 98% of people one way or another will admit its not right.

 

Whether its brown envelopes, pressure, bias, whatever the case... Most people will admit what goes on is not right.

 

Yet many people will still try and fucking sit there and say "So what, we just need to get on with it".

 

Does anybody who says that actually stop and think how fucking insane that stance is.

 

Yeah, so what if you're not playing on a level playing field in a competitive sport which is supposed to be fair and equal. If thats the attitude fans are going to take we may aswell just pack the whole fucking thing in.

 

People who say that are fucking clueless.

 

Coral and Paddy Power have adjusted their odds on the game because of Webb's appointment.

 

Just laugh it off I reckon. Nothing to see here.

[Major Tom]

If thats the attitude fans are going to take we may aswell just pack the whole fucking thing in.

 

 

The attitude of the fans means fuck all. The club should be doing something about it. And so should other clubs.

 

Genuine question: In your view, why do you think nothing is being done about it?

[John McClane]

The game is in 5 days time, do you want/ expect/ hope BR will discuss this in his PC?

 

Id like to think we can go there with the best player in the league, a new striker signing and the captain of England and influence the game ourselves.

 

That being said I remember too well with the Kings first game back he gifted, fucking gifted them a pen inside 5 minutes, then sent off Gerrard when he was looking in the other direction before half time.

 

We haven't beat a team in the top half this season, do I think we can beat the league leaders away from home? Yes, yes I do.

[LFC64]

I think that is over stating the case.

 

It is unquestionbaly true that a wrong call against Man U/ van Persie is big news so a ref will think twice. The ramifications of a wrong call against us are far less.

 

I do not believe that in the heat of battle Webb, or any other PL ref, consciously is trying to help Man U, or disadvantage us. A decision in favour of an opposing team, or against Man u inevitably has to be more robust because of the levels of scrutiny applied- but that is subtly different from overt pro/anti bias.

 

I don't think your opinion is that far apart from most of the posters who are taking you to task on this thread !

I agree the difference in the argument is subtle and one of interpretation but the end result is the same. Like yourself I don't believe there are clandestine meetings or calls with direct malevolent corrupt obectives or any overt bribery which has been the case particularly in Italy. However the unrelenting systematic pressure that Ferguson and United's PR machine has been able to apply to officials and the governing bodies of the game particularly over the PL years without recourse in an era in which the financial stakes are so high has paid dividends on the pitch and continues to do so.

[amli]

Webb will fuck us in the ass.

 

 

 

Yes.

But there will be other practical problems.

I.e, who is going to blow the whistle when he steps up to take their penalty?