Thiago Alcantara

[Code]

30 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

If you watched the Chelsea game and didn't think what Gini could've done in that midfield, then I don't know what to say.

Not once did Gini enter my mind during the game, Thiago on the other hand. 

[Boss]

15 minutes ago, John102 said:

When you say mistake, I assume you mean from a fans perspective? I don't think they think they made any mistake. They are after the steady stream of CL money ( the reason for Super League) and they got it. I think they are fairly comfortable they will remain in the CL for foreseeable, without massive outlays. If anything, I think last season could have emboldened their stance, still making top 4 with an unpredicted injury crisis.

 

They have been pretty clear they want us to be sustainable. I imagine it's a hard sell to investors that they want to drop 100 million on players, with wages on tip, to chase a move from 2nd to first, all in the name of a title, which isn't going to bring 100 million extra revenue through the door.

 

Yeah, I mean from a fan's perspective. As you say, from their perspective, they have no passion for the sport and it's simply a cold hard investment to generate revenue, and ultimately profit. I can't even fathom how you could see Liverpool FC in that way, and I guess my thoughts always align with us trying to win and be the best. 

[Boss]

17 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Putting aside that Gini’s been poor this season, if your argument is we should sign someone on a 4 year deal and increased wages because we could have maybe used him in some games this season, that's not a good argument.

 

We essentially swapped Gini for Thiago. If you want to argue that was a mistake, that has more validity, although I would disagree with that. I simply would have also replaced Keita and or Milner and Ox by now.

 

It's not some games. We could've used him in every game this season. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Thiago being better than Gini. Thiago lacks fitness; he makes mistakes that Gini wouldn't make, and we had much greater defensive stability with Gini in the team. That's by the by, though. Thiago is a good player, and I'm happy he's here. I'd be a lot happier if both of them were here and don't understand letting Gini go without replacing him - which is the point I'm sure we can both agree on. 

[3 Stacks]

21 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

It's not some games. We could've used him in every game this season. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Thiago being better than Gini. Thiago lacks fitness; he makes mistakes that Gini wouldn't make, and we had much greater defensive stability with Gini in the team. That's by the by, though. Thiago is a good player, and I'm happy he's here. I'd be a lot happier if both of them were here and don't understand letting Gini go without replacing him - which is the point I'm sure we can both agree on. 

No, I'd rather we have one of them. I don't want 4 midfielders 30 or older, that's not good. We already have a problem of an ageing midfield, having both Thiago and Gini, along with Milner and Henderson makes that even worse. Like I say, if you prefer Gini over Thiago, that's fine. It's arguable. Agree to disagree. 

 

I also think we replaced Gini fine. Thiago, plus adding Elliott, plus Konate, allowing Fabinho to play only midfield, I think is a fine arrangement.

 

What's been stupid is not ditching Keita or Chamberlain. Keita is literally the bane of our existence. He's a 55m player who should be in the prime of his career, who either can't get on the pitch, or we're starting a 35 year old Milner ahead of him. It's a dreadful situation. 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

No, I'd rather we have one of them. I don't want 4 midfielders 30 or older, that's not good. We already have a problem of an ageing midfield, having both Thiago and Gini, along with Milner and Henderson makes that even worse. Like I say, if you prefer Gini over Thiago, that's fine. It's arguable. Agree to disagree. 

 

I also think we replaced Gini fine. Thiago, plus adding Elliott, plus Konate, allowing Fabinho to play only midfield, I think is a fine arrangement.

 

What's been stupid is not ditching Keita or Chamberlain. Keita is literally the bane of our existence. He's a 55m player who should be in the prime of his career, who either can't get on the pitch, or we're starting a 35 year old Milner ahead of him. It's a dreadful situation. 

Selling Keita is a very good idea, fully agree upon that, I suspect finding someone who thinks it’s a good idea to buy him may be the issue here.

[George Costanza]

9 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

Selling Keita is a very good idea, fully agree upon that, I suspect finding someone who thinks it’s a good idea to buy him may be the issue here.

all depends on how much we ask for him. His performances for Leipzig don't just disappear overnight where for 2 seasons he was one of the best players in the Bundesliga. It hasn't really worked out for him here but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.  Some players just don't fit a system or league.  Forlan is one of the best examples of this.  He was pretty rubbish for the Mancs but what a player he was when he left for Villarreal & Atletico Madrid.

[m0e]

6 hours ago, Code said:

Last three league seasons.

 

Liverpool: 24 out of 38 games

Bayern: 24 out of 34 games

Bayern: 30 out of 34 games

 

Its not that bad really. 

It is when you consider who he replaced and who else we have in midfield.

 

I wasn't bothered by his record prior to this period now, but I have to say that loads on here were worried about this happening, and they've been proved correct.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

The question was never about replacing Gini's quality - Thiago is a better player - but about replacing his minutes.

 

Milner being a year older, whilst Ox and Keita continue to be non-starters made it all the more glaring that Thiago wasn't going to cover those minutes himself.

 

We need a solid 7/10 player, in their twenties, who has the legs to do 40-50 games a season. Klopp's shown he can work with that type of player, but rotating sick notes - and whatever Keita is - is a different story.

[Lee909]

22 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The question was never about replacing Gini's quality - Thiago is a better player - but about replacing his minutes.

 

 

 

A better player on the ball 100%

But isn't near as good without and doesn't offer the fullbacks the cover Gini did. I would also say Gini was far better for us when under pressure. 

[Code]

We bought Thiago before the 20/21 season, not this summer. 

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, Code said:

We bought Thiago before the 20/21 season, not this summer. 

Correct, and that was the time that we decided not to extend Gini, (and to have Fabinho as 4th choice centre back for a season).  Obvious succession planning to change the make up of our midfield to add extra passing and creativity with Thiago. 

[s(k)aturation]

9 hours ago, John102 said:

When you say mistake, I assume you mean from a fans perspective? I don't think they think they made any mistake. They are after the steady stream of CL money ( the reason for Super League) and they got it. I think they are fairly comfortable they will remain in the CL for foreseeable, without massive outlays. If anything, I think last season could have emboldened their stance, still making top 4 with an unpredicted injury crisis.

 

They have been pretty clear they want us to be sustainable. I imagine it's a hard sell to investors that they want to drop 100 million on players, with wages on tip, to chase a move from 2nd to first, all in the name of a title, which isn't going to bring 100 million extra revenue through the door.

 

If Klopp left tomorrow, that comfort zone could vanish in weeks.

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

7 hours ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The question was never about replacing Gini's quality - Thiago is a better player - but about replacing his minutes.

 

Milner being a year older, whilst Ox and Keita continue to be non-starters made it all the more glaring that Thiago wasn't going to cover those minutes himself.

 

We need a solid 7/10 player, in their twenties, who has the legs to do 40-50 games a season. Klopp's shown he can work with that type of player, but rotating sick notes - and whatever Keita is - is a different story.

I think what has also become more apparent to a lot of people (although my head was already there) is how little keita and Chamberlain offer even when they do get on the pitch. I don't think there has been a bigger statement of exactly where keita is when we have a busy period where he won't be here and when a big game like Chelsea comes along, we choose to save keita's legs and select milner. Clearly klopp/lijnders didn't think keita could cut it. And I also think milner has gone down a level this season. Fair fucks to the lad, he's been defying time for a year or two, but he's starting to look his 36 years now. It's not just how much grass he covers (which seems to be fine), it's how quickly he gets to the ball, how he changes direction and stuff like that. He's just a free kick waiting to happen now and because he's slow and late so often and gets easily done, it's miracle he doesn't get more yellow cards.

 

Going into that Chelsea game we had 1 of 7 midfielders unavailable (I'm not counting Elliot), it shouldn't be a crisis. It's a reflection of what some are offering that it is. 

[stringvest]

3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think what has also become more apparent to a lot of people (although my head was already there) is how little keita and Chamberlain offer even when they do get on the pitch. I don't think there has been a bigger statement of exactly where keita is when we have a busy period where he won't be here and when a big game like Chelsea comes along, we choose to save keita's legs and select milner. Clearly klopp/lijnders didn't think keita could cut it. And I also think milner has gone down a level this season. Fair fucks to the lad, he's been defying time for a year or two, but he's starting to look his 36 years now. It's not just how much grass he covers (which seems to be fine), it's how quickly he gets to the ball, how he changes direction and stuff like that. He's just a free kick waiting to happen now and because he's slow and late so often and gets easily done, it's miracle he doesn't get more yellow cards.

 

Going into that Chelsea game we had 1 of 7 midfielders unavailable (I'm not counting Elliot), it shouldn't be a crisis. It's a reflection of what some are offering that it is. 

I agree with what you say about Milner (and how the manager has damned Keita by selecting Milner ahead of him), though while he did look cumbersome yesterday, he was out-cumbersomed by Fabinho.  Should they be focusing on sharpness training at this stage in the season?

[Barrington Womble]

5 minutes ago, stringvest said:

I agree with what you say about Milner (and how the manager has damned Keita by selecting Milner ahead of him), though while he did look cumbersome yesterday, he was out-cumbersomed by Fabinho.  Should they be focusing on sharpness training at this stage in the season?

I don't think we do anything like that this time of year do we? It's all rest and match prep and just trying to maintain fitness levels. 

 

I think fabinho is a player who thrives off playing twice per week. Breaks don't suit him. He struggled earlier this season in and out and the additional international load. He had a good run from the last lot of internationals till he got covid. 

[m0e]

Keita can't play left of the 3. I don't know how much more obvious that can be.

 

Milner was picked ahead of the Ox.

[Barrington Womble]

3 hours ago, m0e said:

Keita can't play left of the 3. I don't know how much more obvious that can be.

 

Milner was picked ahead of the Ox.

honestly, any central midfield player who is that limited that they can't play either side of the 8 position shouldn't be playing professional football. It's not a left mid, it's centre mid on the left or right side. i can see if you have only played the one side, playing the other might be more troublesome for a game or two, but if he can't play it, he needs another club. i would say he has played that left side as much as he's played the right (although i don't know how you check that). Earlier in his time here when Gini was doing stints at 6, this is what gave him his chance in the team. 

[TheHowieLama]

12 hours ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The question was never about replacing Gini's quality - Thiago is a better player - but about replacing his minutes.

 

Elliott was set to get alot of these.

[stringvest]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

honestly, any central midfield player who is that limited that they can't play either side of the 8 position shouldn't be playing professional football. It's not a left mid, it's centre mid on the left or right side. i can see if you have only played the one side, playing the other might be more troublesome for a game or two, but if he can't play it, he needs another club. i would say he has played that left side as much as he's played the right (although i don't know how you check that). Earlier in his time here when Gini was doing stints at 6, this is what gave him his chance in the team. 

Exactly.  

[m0e]

10 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

honestly, any central midfield player who is that limited that they can't play either side of the 8 position shouldn't be playing professional football. It's not a left mid, it's centre mid on the left or right side. i can see if you have only played the one side, playing the other might be more troublesome for a game or two, but if he can't play it, he needs another club. i would say he has played that left side as much as he's played the right (although i don't know how you check that). Earlier in his time here when Gini was doing stints at 6, this is what gave him his chance in the team. 

The right side has changed this season. Its much more advanced. You can watch the games Keita played well in and it's always on the right.

[Barrington Womble]

7 hours ago, m0e said:

The right side has changed this season. Its much more advanced. You can watch the games Keita played well in and it's always on the right.

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to play the left side. They're professional footballers. It's not like we're asking Salah to play central defence. We're asking a number 8 to play number 8. If he can't managed that, he shouldn't be here.  

[Jose Jones]

42 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to play the left side. They're professional footballers. It's not like we're asking Salah to play central defence. We're asking a number 8 to play number 8. If he can't managed that, he shouldn't be here.  

It’s been obvious since we signed him that Keita struggles to fit into our tactical set up. Probably giving him that more advanced position on the right and sticking with it is the last resort with him.

[m0e]

2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to play the left side. They're professional footballers. It's not like we're asking Salah to play central defence. We're asking a number 8 to play number 8. If he can't managed that, he shouldn't be here.  

That's a fair position, I suppose.

 

Although it's not a 'number 8' in the traditional sense. That's like saying Trent is a number 2. The role is far more evolved than that.

 

Some players can't play certain positions. For example, I've never seen Henderson play on the left side (or at least, not that I can remember).

 

Salah probably can't play left side either. That's a left footed winger who can't play left wing!!

 

Does that make him a 'professional' footballer?

 

I'd be more than happy if Keita can play one position well, and stay fi.

[Barrington Womble]

2 hours ago, m0e said:

That's a fair position, I suppose.

 

Although it's not a 'number 8' in the traditional sense. That's like saying Trent is a number 2. The role is far more evolved than that.

 

Some players can't play certain positions. For example, I've never seen Henderson play on the left side (or at least, not that I can remember).

 

Salah probably can't play left side either. That's a left footed winger who can't play left wing!!

 

Does that make him a 'professional' footballer?

 

I'd be more than happy if Keita can play one position well, and stay fi.

I would think Salah would be a fine player on the left, he maybe just wouldn't be one of the world's top 5 players. But we're not talking about someone being world top 5 or top 10/20 depending on position. We're talking about someone to just put in some adequate performances. I think we absolutely require all of our players to be tactically smart. Robbo and Trent have reinvented full back. Fab came in as a lad who knew how to play in a double 6, but took time to learn single 6. Salah has changed from being a dangerous wide forward into one of the best goalscorers on the planet. Mane joined us and played right wing and did a great job before moving and adjusting when Salah joined. Firmino a left forward and became a false 9. Jota an average wide forward to a top modern 9 goalscorer. Gini, another klopp success story came as a kind of attacking midfield/10 type of guy and became a glue player at 8. So being tactically smart is part of the job playing for klopp's Liverpool. Klopp tweaks how we play all the time (as you have pointed out with this advanced right sided stuff). If all you can do is one thing, again I feel my point stands. Get out and play for a fat Sam type of manager, because you're out of place in Liverpool. 

[stringvest]

To be fair to Keita, he didn't play the advanced right sided number 8 role before he arrived.