Greece

[stringvest]

It was gross negligence on the part of governments and regulators,  

However playing the blame game does nothing to help the Greeks today whose country is about to collapse. Cant blame them for voting No or on the other hand others for not wishing to give them billions with no chance of getting it back. I expect they will be thrown a lifeline short-term and eased out of the Euro .  

 

it wasn't gross negligence.  It was malevolence and greed.  They all knew what would happen.  Anyone with more than two brain cells knew what would happen.  Governments and regulators were willing accomplices - everyone has their hand in the pocket of the average man.  And no-one is pulling him off.  Monetise your own sperm lads.    

[stringvest]

I think objectivity should be the cornerstone of journalism but I see it less and less now. 

 

It's often subtle, and sometimes not so subtle. 

 

The way they show migrants in Calais 'storming' lorries but don't bother to tell the story of what's going on in their homes, or how they describe some factions in a war as 'muslim rebels' and others as 'islamist insurgents'. 

 

The Iraq war was the death knell of modern journalism, never has a media been so complicit in a government outrage as that generation of media were. 

 

you're too young to remember Vietnam.  As am I, actually.  But it happened there too.  

[Jairzinho]

I'm sure One Direction will write this generation's version of Blowing In The Wind or Fortunate Son.

[Red Phoenix]

I think objectivity should be the cornerstone of journalism but I see it less and less now.

 

Greenwald did actually give a good and detailed example of why that's the case recently. I'd much rather read something that helps like this, than the shit that many so called journos refer to as objective : The Sunday Times’ Snowden Story is Journalism at its Worst — and Filled with Falsehoods

[Skidfingers McGonical]

you're too young to remember Vietnam. As am I, actually. But it happened there too.

Been watching a three part documentary on Vietnam this weekend.

 

Amazing that the whole war was based on the Americans misinterpreting what Hoi Chi Min said and wanted. All because he was aligned with the Commies. Plus it is one of the biggest war crimes that gets brushed under the carpet by the Americans when they preach about others doing the same

 

Anyway, back Greece. Well done the people of Greece.

[Section_31]

I'm sure One Direction will write this generation's version of Blowing In The Wind or Fortunate Son.

 

That actually is a good point though, there is no counter culture now - at all. 

[magicrat]

it wasn't gross negligence.  It was malevolence and greed.  They all knew what would happen.  Anyone with more than two brain cells knew what would happen.  Governments and regulators were willing accomplices - everyone has their hand in the pocket of the average man.  And no-one is pulling him off.  Monetise your own sperm lads.    

 

It was a combination of all these things . 

[Baltar]

I like that the Greeks have given the Germans the middle finger. Every time the media asks the average Greek on the street about this crisis, they always blame Germany. And they're right. Germany has way too much power in the EU now. Good thing we're not in the Euro, being told what to do by Merkel and her mob doesn't appeal. Not that I mind her slapping Cameron around but for one country to be so dominant is not good for the EU.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

That actually is a good point though, there is no counter culture now - at all.

There is, it's just not marketable. Major labels are scared to release any of it or even take a chance.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Yanis and Syriza want to pay the loans back, they protested against the first bailouts. Iv'e read so many comments of people saying greece want money for nothing and then don't want to pay it back they just want free cash. They have said they want to pay back the loans but austerity measures have reduced year after year the amount of money they can make.. to make repayments, in order to pay back the loan they need growth, signing upto a new deal that demands more austerity is counter productive and will eventually destroy greece anyway. It's like an offer being made by vultures. Political ideology seems to be more important than the logical solutions. Give Greece the best chance they can at paying back their debt and improving their lot.

 

The Greek people have to evaluate their social structure too and will have to make some hard to swallow changes. Tough times ahead whichever way they voted for the greek people but at least no vote means they can at least have hope of pulling themselves out of this mess if they have the stomach.

[ZonkoVille77]

Germany couldn't take Europe in Ww1 or Ww2. This is the way they are taking it.

 

Anyhow great stuff by the Greeks. They are fucked either way but at least they have decided through the democratic process. I bet the IMF wished it was in Africa or South America so they could just sponsor a coup like they have done numerous times.

 

Putin could jump at this change. Offer Greece aid in exchange for using Greek ports for Russian vessels. The thick plottens

[Skidfingers McGonical]

The Germans have a massive amount of nerve demanding other countries pay their debt when a lot of countries in using Greece wrote of the German debt after the WWII.

[Section_31]

I like the Germans on a personal level but I wouldn't say no to fucking them up. It just seems like the right thing to do.

[Bjornebye]

I like the Germans on a personal level but I wouldn't say no to fucking them up. It just seems like the right thing to do.

They bombed stingvests chippy.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Is stringy Stan Boardman's Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Grandfather?

[SasaS]

When Greeks were managed by a German, they were European champions. So, swings and roundabouts.

[ZonkoVille77]

When Greeks were managed by a German, they were European champions. So, swings and roundabouts.

Footy on the GF. Negged

[Stickman]

Good article from a few days ago about Greece although it could be about a lot of countries who are suffering under austerity

 

http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/

[stringvest]

They bombed stingvests chippy.

That actually made me laugh. Twat.

[stringvest]

Is stringy Stan Boardman's Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Grandfather?

That wasn't so good.

[cochyn]

Some proper xenophobic shit on this thread, it has to be said. Just because Germany - as the largest net contributor to the ECB - is leading negotiations it's somehow fascism by the back door now? Hogwash..

 

Oh, and Russia is not even remotely capable of bailing Greece out whilst it shoulders the burden of international sanctions over Ukraine.

 

The truth is: Greece is incapable of running itself as a responsible, modern European state - this much we now know. Let someone else take the reins and show them how it's done. I say again, the only way out for Greece is for it to grow itself out of the debt: They are more fucked financially than if they'd fought a sustained and crippling war. As such, they should be treated rather like Germany were post WW2: Capital controls, curb military spending with their defense under the aegis of NATO. Install a technocrat government charged with root and branch economic reform  and the powers to exact it. 

 

It will be humiliating for the Greek people, but in the long run it will hold them in good stead and bolster them in the future. Let's not forget their geopolitical situation right now either. The world can't afford for Greece to be weak.

[Jairzinho]

Some proper xenophobic shit on this thread, it has to be said. Just because Germany - as the largest net contributor to the ECB - is leading negotiations it's somehow fascism by the back door now? Hogwash..

 

Oh, and Russia is not even remotely capable of bailing Greece out whilst it shoulders the burden of international sanctions over Ukraine.

 

The truth is: Greece is incapable of running itself as a responsible, modern European state - this much we now know. Let someone else take the reins and show them how it's done. I say again, the only way out for Greece is for it to grow itself out of the debt: They are more fucked financially than if they'd fought a sustained and crippling war. As such, they should be treated rather like Germany were post WW2: Capital controls, curb military spending with their defense under the aegis of NATO. Install a technocrat government charged with root and branch economic reform  and the powers to exact it. 

 

It will be humiliating for the Greek people, but in the long run it will hold them in good stead and bolster them in the future. Let's not forget their geopolitical situation right now either. The world can't afford for Greece to be weak.

 

No. What we know is that Greece is incapable of running itself as a responsible, modern European state whilst being brutally raped by turbo austerity. Not that the current government needs to take responsibility for anything that has happened prior to them being in power.

 

If the troika installs a technocrat I hope the people of Greece throw him in the fucking sea.

[cochyn]

No. What we know is that Greece is incapable of running itself as a responsible, modern European state whilst being brutally raped by turbo austerity. Not that the current government needs to take responsibility for anything that has happened prior to them being in power.

 

If the troika installs a technocrat I hope the people of Greece throw him in the fucking sea.

 

Absolutely true. And true to form else they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.  I think the IMF, ECB & EU were so blinded by their own Eurocentric horse shit that they believed an institutionally corrupt country could mend its ways and come round to their methods. They've lobbed hills of cash at he problem and it won't go away, either through fiscal savagery and the beggaring of its people. But what other means have they got?

 

A co-operative solution - even if it means Greece ceding temporary power to an EU-led technocracy has got to be tabled. It happened in Italy, Berlusconi was effectively deposed and technocrats temporary installed. This paved the way for mandated change in Italian politics which has seen green shoots of recovery take hold. Why not here? Italy's GDP has stabilised I get that Syriza are a nice lefty 'soft' peoples' party in comparison, but I truly think the task ahead is way beyond them and the rhetoric which carried them to power. 

[Jairzinho]

In a way, it's too far gone and that is the fault of the Troika. They imposed a level of austerity on Greece which dwarves that imposed on Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. This is why Greece elected a proper left wing government, it's why the no vote won convincingly. They've had enough. Their situation really can't be compared with any other.

 

However let's not pretend that the Troika had anything even approaching good intentions. If their priority was really fixing Greece then 92% of the bailouts would not have gone to the banks. Nor would they currently be preventing Syriza from increasing corporation tax, for example. These people are plutocrats first and foremost, and the last thing they want is a left wing government to sort out the mess.

 

The Greek public, rightly, would not accept an imposed technocrat. 

 

Neoliberalism is a failed economic model, and the idea that they can fix the situation by imposing even harsher austerity is simply ridiculous. Even the IMF have admitted as much (albeit inadvertently via leaks to the press). Most of what is now going on though is political, not economic. The money Greece owes, a quarter of a trillion or whatever it is, as obsurd as this sounds, is actually relatively small compared to the possible fallout of this situation. Other left wing governments emerging, the general public in Northern Europe getting fed up with the EU, countries seeking deals with BRICS nations. The whole fucking racketeering business they have going could be in jeopardy. They've painted themselves into a corner here by being such massive cunts. I think they probably assumed that their scaremongering, helped by other countries and some of the Greek media, would kill off Syriza. The significance of the referendum I don't think can be overstated. The question, whatever it actually said, really meant "We've got your back here, do you have ours?", and they the answer was an overwhelming yes.

 

It's a shame, in my opinion, because I'm largely supportive of the concept of the EU. But it is becoming increasingly difficult to support for people on the left. It needs enormous reform, and essentially an end to the appalling influence of the financial gangsters. Greece has obviously been run dreadfully for a long time, although to be fair this isn't some sudden shock to anyone, they've known as much for years, but what the IMF has done, and is doing, to that country is a crime. It's not a million miles away from what the World Bank does to Sub Saharan Africa. It's fucking disgusting.

[Stu Monty]

Isn't Argentina usually used as an example by those arguing against defaults, as in, you don't want to go through what they have been through, before huge rise in global (Asian) demand and food prices helped them finally reach that light at the end of the tunnel?.

 

Well their GDP nosedived before the lefties came in and is now at about three times the levels it was at when they had to take over the shitfest that neoliberalism had brought them. I'm sure people do like to focus on how food prices helped them out (as if in some way no other nation has ever had growth driven by exports) and don't like to focus on how nationalising core industries and putting money in people's pockets through more socialised policies probably did a lot of good too.