Three at the back

[Sparky]

Didn't get much love from anyone a year ago but since we've reinventing ourselves I thought I'd bring it back. I still think a 3-4-2-1 is worth a look (when we've got some fit CBs) and would probably suit our personnel better than this time last year.

 

Gomez - Matip/Konate - VVD

TAA - Fabinho - Thiago - Robertson

Salah - Diaz

Nunez

 

Bring Salah and Diaz inside a bit rather than hugging the touchlines and miles away from each other/the goal. Firmino, Elliott, Carvalho all suit those roles. Nunez or Jota as CF. One less midfielder to worry about. CBs who are comfortable stepping out with the ball.

 

I mean, I know nothing about anything but it seems clear that what we're doing currently isn't working and has gone stale, Ancelotti said they knew exactly how we'd play in the Champions League final. We were very good at it for a long time but if they haven't got the legs to play like that any more or whatever the issue is, do something else.

 

And yes I know, Klopp doesn't like three at the back. He probably doesn't like being shite either.

[El Rojo]

If our players wearing leotards and clownshoes meant that our high line wasn’t so easily breached, Trent wasn’t caught square each time, Fabinho didn’t run in slow motion and Salah actually got past an opponent, I’d be all for it.

 

At this stage, anything that might improve us has merit as an idea.
 

Still, the return of Matip and Thiago will inevitably  make our traditional set-up better, if both stay fit. 

[an tha]

It arguably beats the 2 at the back we currently employ....

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, an tha said:

It arguably beats the 2 at the back we currently employ....

@Alan Sex

[an tha]

45 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Alan Sex

Sorry - lost me....

[Alan Sex]

19 minutes ago, an tha said:

Sorry - lost me....

What you meant to say was

 

”you had me at two in the back, you won me forever with three in the back”. 
 

Just remember to lube each of the fingers. But not too much lube or you’ll just make a fist of it. 

[an tha]

1 minute ago, Alan Sex said:

What you meant to say was

 

”you had me at two in the back, you won me forever with three in the back”. 
 

Just remember to lube each of the fingers. But not too much lube or you’ll just make a fist of it. 

Of course!!

[Scott_M]

No. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

No. 

No?

[Scott_M]

1 minute ago, Shooter in the Motor said:

No?

 

NO!

[Guest]

Just now, Scott_M said:

 

NO!

So yes.

[Scott_M]

5 minutes ago, Shooter in the Motor said:

So yes.

 

 

This isn’t Woodstock ‘99, no doesn’t mean yes. 
 

In all seriousness, I don’t think it’s necessary. The game has evolved. It’s more important to win the midfield battle.

 

If our players were putting pressure on the ball like they have been doing for years, it wouldn’t even be a discussion.

[George Costanza]

3 at the back would be a backwards step imo

 

We just need to be more compact & not so wide open. I think we should ditch the ridiculous high line we've played the last couple of years. Midfielders aren't covering the deep runners and none of our defenders looks to have the recovery pace required at present.

[3 Stacks]

Formation changes like this are fun to think about in theory but the reality is that if they're not worked on in training for a while before and they're done on a whim, they never work long term.

 

We've never even sniffed 3 at the back under Klopp. He's not gonna have en epiphany all of a sudden that it's actually the right thing to do.

[Sparky]

33 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

In all seriousness, I don’t think it’s necessary. The game has evolved. It’s more important to win the midfield battle.

 

If our players were putting pressure on the ball like they have been doing for years, it wouldn’t even be a discussion.

I think the game has evolved beyond "winning the midfield battle". How many midfield battles do we even have each season, we tend to dominate the ball in 90% of our matches? Our problem has been that we haven't been creating good enough chances and we've been wide open and played through in a couple of passes whenever teams break against us.

 

You're right that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the players were putting pressure on the ball, but they aren't and that's the point. I doubt they've just decided not to, it's probably because they're all mentally and physically knackered. I don't think it'd be suitable for every game but in the short term it might help cover our deficiencies and probably just freshen things up for the players who look like they're stuck in the same playing patterns that worked incredibly for a couple of seasons but have been figured out now. Doing something different might reignite a bunch of them.

[Sparky]

26 minutes ago, George Costanza said:

3 at the back would be a backwards step imo

 

We just need to be more compact & not so wide open. I think we should ditch the ridiculous high line we've played the last couple of years. Midfielders aren't covering the deep runners and none of our defenders looks to have the recovery pace required at present.

I certainly agree with that, it's no good having two defenders on the halfway line for one ball to put someone clean through. The knock-on effect of having so many early season injuries is that we aren't able to rotate, which adds to the fatigue and the players all looking like they're running through treacle.

14 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Formation changes like this are fun to think about in theory but the reality is that if they're not worked on in training for a while before and they're done on a whim, they never work long term.

 

We've never even sniffed 3 at the back under Klopp. He's not gonna have en epiphany all of a sudden that it's actually the right thing to do.

Yeah fundamentally I agree and I think once we get players back fit things will improve a lot due to the quality and chance to rest players. I know Klopp won't go to three at the back because it'd be too much to implement mid-season even if he wanted to. But I do think it would solve a lot of our current issues.

 

[VladimirIlyich]

.....And the little one said 'roll over,roll over.'

[Megadrive Man]

14 hours ago, an tha said:

It arguably beats the 2 at the back we currently employ....

We seemed to have 0 at the back against Napoli!

[TD_LFC]

On 23/09/2021 at 20:51, Sparky said:

I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks in anticipation of all our midfielders getting injured this season, and now they have I thought I'd put it out there. Given that we now have four decent, fit CBs for a moment is there any sense in considering a back three for some games? We've scored 6 goals from corners this season and Van Dijk and Matip have had 18 shots between them. Add Konate into the mix and that could be quite a potent weapon. They're all decent carriers of the ball from the back, also.

 

I think it'd suit Robertson/Tsimikas and Trent just fine and Fabinho plus one (Henderson or Thiago, ideally) would be resolute. My worry would be the link from that midfield to a 'flat' front three. I think it works well for Chelsea as they have Mount and Havertz to play in that area ahead of the midfield but behind Lukaku. Maybe if Firmino was dropping deep it'd work.

 

Probably all moot because I can't see Klopp going for it, though didn't we play a back three in one or two games a few seasons ago? I'm happy for the many cleverer than me to explain why it'd ruin our press or nullify Trent or whatever I haven't considered, but it seems like something that might be quite useful for the odd European away tie or something.

You're either playing three at the back with 3 in midfield or with two in midfield, with two it increases the workload and gives them more space to cover which accentuates the issue of lack of mobility, adding a third player to cover for that takes us back to the same number of midfielders as we currently have and sacrifices an attacker.

[Jairzinho]

Just play 4-2-3-1. Seemingly none of the midfielders can actually run any more, the right back appears to be playing as a number 10, and... Joe Gomez (although hopefully Matip can start now). So having two midfielders to just sit in front of the back four would help prevent teams just walking straight through the middle of us. We could also play Elliott as a 10, not at all. I think he's doing alright at the moment, better than most of the senior players, but that right hand side is a complete mess. Trent and Salah look abysmal.

[Daisy]

If we are going to get anything out of Nunez then one of, or both of elliot and Salah need to move to the left. 

 

We need left footed players on the left wing and right footed players on the right wing for pull backs and crosses. 

[TD_LFC]

14 minutes ago, Daisy said:

If we are going to get anything out of Nunez then one of, or both of elliot and Salah need to move to the left. 

 

We need left footed players on the left wing and right footed players on the right wing for pull backs and crosses. 

Thats what Robertson and Trent are supposed to be for, Salah needs to play slightly narrower not on the left.

[JagSquared]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

Just play 4-2-3-1. Seemingly none of the midfielders can actually run any more, the right back appears to be playing as a number 10, and... Joe Gomez (although hopefully Matip can start now). So having two midfielders to just sit in front of the back four would help prevent teams just walking straight through the middle of us. We could also play Elliott as a 10, not at all. I think he's doing alright at the moment, better than most of the senior players, but that right hand side is a complete mess. Trent and Salah look abysmal.

yeah the right hand side (in our 433) needs someone in midfield who can cover when Trent goes forward and as much as I like elliot, he isn’t that player. Henderson at his peak did a lot of hard work there allowing the others the freedom. 
 

I think the problem with the 4231 option is that it would restrict Trent’s attacking but if you allowed him to go forward then one of the midfielders would have to drop back and then we would have a single player covering the middle of the pitch as the 3 attacking midfielders would be too high up to help in transitions. So the RCB has to go wide which then opens up space in our back line. Salah would also prob have to stay wider if we kept Trent back and we need him in more threatening positions. 

 

3 At the back also has challenges with the players we have. It’s a conundrum for

sure.

 

fuck it go 442 lump it to the big man big Sam style.

[Jairzinho]

6 minutes ago, JagSquared said:

 

I think the problem with the 4231 option is that it would restrict Trent’s attacking but if you allowed him to go forward then one of the midfielders would have to drop back and then we would have a single player covering the middle of the pitch as the 3 attacking midfielders would be too high up to help in transitions. So the RCB has to go wide which then opens up space in our back line. Salah would also prob have to stay wider if we kept Trent back and we need him in more threatening positions. 

A bit perhaps, although I'd be completely fine with that certainly in the short term. We'd get more out of Salah which would compensate. 

 

Basically lots of players all over the pitch are playing really badly but everything goes back to the midfield. We've ignored sorting it out for several years. We've pretended that having nine of them or however many it is means that we're fine. Now we're the position of not having a single midfielder that can be relied upon to be available to play most of the games, and is capable of running for 90 minutes. Milner should be at Leeds or on the coaching staff, Keita and Chamberlain should have been sold/released three years ago. Jones doesn't appear to have any idea what he's supposed to be doing. We've removed the creativity and replaced it with nothing. Henderson being contracted until 2025 is looking...unwise. We've got Thiago (injured a lot), Fabinho (injured a reasonable amount, and played all season like it's the first day of pre season) and two promising kids who look like they probably need to be playing as number 10s or wide forwards. 

 

There's stuff we could do tactically to make us less shit than we've been, but it all feels a bit temporary while we remain inactive in the transfer market. Both in terms of signing players and fucking off those that clearly aren't good enough.

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I like a back 3. Probably my favourite formation, a standard 3-5-2. The system we played under Roy Evans, basically. We’ve got the personnel to make it work. The 3/5 defensive players and the 2 sitting midfielders would come from an obvious pool of players. The more advanced, roaming, free role, ball progressing roll that McManaman played under Evans could be performed well by Diaz, Firmino, Elliott or Carvalho. Plus, it would allow Salah to play a bit more centrally but with freedom to drift into the channels (like Collymore did) with Núñez or Jota playing the Fowler role with some freedom but offering the main threat in the box. 
 

But, it’s wishful thinking. I can see Klopp maybe tweaking our current tactics or even trying something a bit different. However, I can’t see him switching it up entirely to a system we’ve barely used apart from in a few games when we’ve gone to a back 5 late on to get over the line in a game we’ve been winning narrowly.