Coronavirus

[Guest Alex_K]

19 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

People need to stop misrepresenting Sweden too. It's not the all singing and dancing COVID beating machine that is being made out. There's currently up to 150,000 people still suffering from long term Covid-19 symptoms, rendering some of them unable to work or live as they previously did. 

 

https://www.expressen.se/debatt/stoppa-utforsakringarna-av-langtidssjuka-i-covid-19/

Nobody is making Sweden out to be that. Tegnell is the first to say they remain in difficult terrain. The first thing everyone needs to realise is there is no singing and dancing COVID beating machine. It sure as hell isn't lockdowns. Everyone is sooner or later going to need to go through what Sweden did - the sooner everyone starts facing up to the reality of the situation and engage in planning to protect those who need it the better. The country has pissed £200 billion up the wall and could very very easily soon find itself back to square one after all that.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

It's from June, so I can't say if these percentages held up. 

 

But, while Sweden didn't have an official state mandated "lockdown," studies show that a fair amount of Swedes adapted their behaviour and carried out lockdown like measures off their own bat. Like reduced travelling, socialising in busy places etc. 

 

Swedes largely appeared to follow the recommendations of the Public Health Agency of Sweden. That's probably down to them being a more educated, sensible population, probably with less dickheads than the UK. I think our people wouldn't be as inclined to follow recommendations from government departments and that the misrepresented "Swedish model" wouldn't work here. That's why we've had to have a state mandated "lockdown" instead of the Swedish self-managed change of behavioural patterns. 

 

https://www.government.se/articles/2020/06/social-distancing-and-markedly-reduced-travel-in-sweden/

[Tony Moanero]

7 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

Constructive.

And the crap you’ve been posting for months is?

 

It wasn’t so long ago, that having chosen to go to Spain on holiday, you were moaning about having to self-isolate for two weeks!

 

Chris Whitty said “This is not someone else’s problem. This is all of our problem.” 

“You cannot in an epidemic just take your own risk, unfortunately you are taking a risk on behalf of everybody else, it’s important we see this as something we do collectively.”

 

Whitty is spot on. However, it seems to me, you are just looking for anything to justify you doing as you please, while advocating the vulnerable stay home and shield indefinitely. I’m all right, Jack behaviour.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Alex_K]

10 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

It's from June, so I can't say if these percentages held up. 

 

But, while Sweden didn't have an official state mandated "lockdown," studies show that a fair amount of Swedes adapted their behaviour and carried out lockdown like measures off their own bat. Like reduced travelling, socialising in busy places etc. 

 

Swedes largely appeared to follow the recommendations of the Public Health Agency of Sweden. That's probably down to them being a more educated, sensible population, probably with less dickheads than the UK. I think our people wouldn't be as inclined to follow recommendations from government departments and that the misrepresented "Swedish model" wouldn't work here. That's why we've had to have a state mandated "lockdown" instead of the Swedish self-managed change of behavioural patterns. 

 

https://www.government.se/articles/2020/06/social-distancing-and-markedly-reduced-travel-in-sweden/

 

Which is completely fine. Everyone should have the freedom to act as they wish within reason; it is a judicial and social system we spent centuries defining. Jonathan Sumption has written eloquently on the point.

The rest of the post is pure rhetoric. A state-mandated-anything is suggestive of authorities deserving the right to dictate the actions of their citizenry. I was under the impression the contributors on this forum are largely not for the Conservative government (!), so why they would have faith in their management & understanding of the impacts borne by state-mandated lockdowns I am not sure? The hysteria is only going to breed more & deeper hysteria in the long run as it slowly dawns on people that they are resigning themselves to economic ruin & a life of "lockdown culture" until the silver bullet vaccine appears (which may be never).

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Alex_K said:

 

Which is completely fine. Everyone should have the freedom to act as they wish within reason; it is a judicial and social system we spent centuries defining. Jonathan Sumption has written eloquently on the point.

The rest of the post is pure rhetoric. A state-mandated-anything is suggestive of authorities deserving the right to dictate the actions of their citizenry. I was under the impression the contributors on this forum are largely not for the Conservative government (!), so why they would have faith in their management & understanding of the impacts borne by state-mandated lockdowns I am not sure?

Common sense plays a big part. Common sense and consideration of other peoples well being as well as your own. 

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, Spy Bee said:

Professor Balloux

 

[Guest Alex_K]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Common sense plays a big part. 

Of course. Personally I would not expect to see large football stadiums full again for a very long time .. and yet the government are trialling 5,000 person attendances at the same time as communicating we are on the edge of a new lockdown. The same authorities who literally paid people to drive them into hospitality venues in August, and now are verging close towards a shutdown of the entire sector barely a month later. The polarising, short-termism is insane. Allow hospitality to be open & for people to make their own minds on if they visit without paying them to go there! Allow gyms to be open without amassing 5,000 individuals in one place at a non-essential sports stadium!.

 

There needs to be common sense protocols, but people need also to be able to make their own minds to an extent and it cannot be an insane all-or-nothing approach. Entire history textbooks will be written on the ruinous management of this period.

[an tha]

12 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

My prediction is that the Government will change course this week and go for a new strategy based on more radical shielding of the elderly and vulnerable and let the virus run its course amongst everybody else. The Government can't afford to pay for another 6 month furlough so will have to get the majority back to work or risk mass unemployment and a huge cut in tax revenues. Its obvious that the lockdown/release/lockdown strategy is not going to work in the long run and vaccines are still 6 months away at least.

 

I foresee complete lockdown though for those in the vulnerable group with food and medical deliveries to the front door and absolutely no going out for 3 months at least until the R number is negligible 

 

I'm not saying this is a good idea i just worry its inevitable as the lockdown/release strategy is not working anywhere in the world.

 

We have 3 parents over 75 none of whom will survive if they catch this. I'm much more worried today so I guessing the scare the population before you spring the new policy tactic is working. 

I can't see the nature of today's message being followed by what you suggest.

 

For example they focused in on and really emphasised the point about households mixing and changing course on mixing.

 

I just don't think the government would send them out with such messages today (the whole session) if they were going to follow it with what you suggest.

 

Today was for my money the seed to really frighten people and get people thinking we are fucked and then to lead them into further restrictions later this week - these will see us lose the ability to visit friends/family etc, some sort of curfew on pubs etc closing times if not a full 2 week closure and possibly other restrictions.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Tony Moanero said:

Spy Bee is still posting complete and utter bollocks in this thread?

Well we're back to the "there's not 500k dead, so it can't be all bad" argument. Forgetting what we've had to do to keep deaths this low. 

1 hour ago, Spy Bee said:

Thus far.

What do you mean "thus far", are you suggesting that because the other scandi countries have dealt with this better for now, the likelihood is we should follow the path of the country that has done worse as they're about to come back from 5-0 down to win 5-6? The evidence we have is Sweden is killing more people and in doing so didn't really help their economy. I don't see what point you're trying to make? 

[Bjornebye]

If we are going to copy anyway I'd like us to copy South Korea. It would be great if everyone could wear a mask. 

[Bruce Spanner]

14 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

My understanding from my secret source is that they have spent the whole weekend debating what to do. There is a camp led by the Chancellor saying lockdowns for the general population are ultimately pointless in the longer term (the virus just comes back when the lockdown ends) and ruinously expensive (£200 billion so far) with no obvious benefit if all we did was delay the spread of the virus until the winter months when it will spread more easily.
 

The other camp led by the scientists says we have no choice if we are to avoid 10,000s more deaths and the economic cost of letting this get out of hand will be far worse than £200 billion. It’s not obvious what to do. 

Is your source the national newspapers as it’s pretty much common knowledge that it’s Alex and Hancock against the rest with them pushing for the safety first approach?

[Dr Nowt]

6 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Is your source the national newspapers as it’s pretty much common knowledge that it’s Alex and Hancock against the rest with them pushing for the safety first approach?

He’s had a hush hush and on the QT chat with Xerxes; just back in haste with a breathless post-meeting report, showing his full range spreads across sport, right into the heart of Westminster. Either that or The Telegraph online.

[Davelfc]

20 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

My understanding from my secret source is that they have spent the whole weekend debating what to do. There is a camp led by the Chancellor saying lockdowns for the general population are ultimately pointless in the longer term (the virus just comes back when the lockdown ends) and ruinously expensive (£200 billion so far) with no obvious benefit if all we did was delay the spread of the virus until the winter months when it will spread more easily.
 

The other camp led by the scientists says we have no choice if we are to avoid 10,000s more deaths and the economic cost of letting this get out of hand will be far worse than £200 billion. It’s not obvious what to do. 

 

I can understand why it's a difficult one, killing thousands of the weakest and most vulnerable of our society is their job not some upstart virus. 

[Bruce Spanner]

21 minutes ago, Dr Nowt said:

He’s had a hush hush and on the QT chat with Xerxes; just back in haste with a breathless post-meeting report, showing his full range spreads across sport, right into the heart of Westminster. Either that or The Telegraph online.

It’s amazing how much gets leaked, it’s almost like they are trying to determine the ‘narrative’ and massage the public in to some form of support for Alex, and contrary to that cast Saint Sunak in a bad light as he’s genuinely leaving the rest of them looking like the chumps they are.  
 

They wouldn’t do that though, why would they repeat the same things they’ve been doing throughout by briefing friends in the media then gauging the public’s reaction through focus groups and internet opinion scanning, then basing tomorrow’s policy on that, they’d never do that, would they, that’d be mad and not befitting a government of her majesty Liz, wouldn’t it?

[Strontium]

45 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Well we're back to the "there's not 500k dead, so it can't be all bad" argument. Forgetting what we've had to do to keep deaths this low.

 

Things we've had to do? Sweden didn't do them, and they have a lower per capita death rate.

 

The measures we've taken so far have been a choice. You can argue it was the right choice if you want, but it wasn't the sole option.

[Bruce Spanner]

5 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

I think it’s obvious they are readying us for more draconian lockdown measures in the coming days. The polices already decided, it’s the public reaction they are managing today and it’s working. People like me have been unsettled by today’s briefing so when the PM announces the new policy tomorrow it won’t massively get pushed back on. We are having our reactions played like puppets on a string and the scientists are complicit in it. It’s primitive but effective mass psychology. 

Sack Cummings you would have, to a degree, a far more willing populace, lose the moral high ground and you’re fucked, they lost it over and over.

 

The big problem they now face is the empty headed dickheads that they co-opted to ‘Get Brexit Done’ are the same tinfoil hatted ‘tards walking around London trying to kick off about masks and ‘civil liberties’, a concept like sovereignty they don’t have the first understanding of.

 

They helped to create the monster and it could come back to bite them in the arse, good.

[TheHowieLama]

26 minutes ago, Чемпионы said:

 

I can understand why it's a difficult one, killing thousands of the weakest and most vulnerable of our society is their job not some upstart virus. 

But as Stronts has pointed out - these are the strongest of the seniors. The greatest of the greatest generation. They have outlived the average in Scotland.

Fuckin Scotland mate - its not a cakewalk up there.

[Davelfc]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Sack Cummings you would have, to a degree, a far more willing populace, lose the moral high ground and you’re fucked, they lost it over and over.

 

The big problem they now face is the empty headed dickheads that they co-opted to ‘Get Brexit Done’ are the same tinfoil hatted ‘tards walking around London trying to kick off about masks.

 

They helped to create the monster and it could come back to bite them in the arse, good.

It's a bit late for that now to make much of a difference, and if people are stomping around ignoring social distancing and refusing to wear masks it's because they are selfish ignorant cunts, don't make excuses for them.

 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

3 minutes ago, Чемпионы said:

It's a bit late for that now to make much of a difference, and if people are stomping around ignoring social distancing and refusing to wear masks it's because they are selfish ignorant cunts, don't make excuses for them.

 

 

I mean when it happened.

 

They lost all moral authority at that point, every thing else after that was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.

 

People are selfish cunts, but by and large they  understood the severity of the situation and were prepared to back it, after Dom’s jaunt you can kiss goodbye to that complicity.

 

 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Swedish deaths per 1 million population are 580 compared to 615 in the Uk but they have a much lower population density per square mile and a younger and healthier population. Their economy has also contracted in line with the rest of Europe. There’s not much really evidence that they were any more effective than anybody else. 

This was pointed out to him the other day but as is always the case when it doesn't suit his narrative, he ignored it. 

[Barrington Womble]

12 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Things we've had to do? Sweden didn't do them, and they have a lower per capita death rate.

 

The measures we've taken so far have been a choice. You can argue it was the right choice if you want, but it wasn't the sole option.

Sweden is a different country to here though isn't it? You know that too. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Swedish deaths per 1 million population are 580 compared to 615 in the Uk but they have a much lower population density per square mile and a younger and healthier population. Their economy has also contracted in line with the rest of Europe. There’s not much really evidence that they were any more effective than anybody else. 

 

I don't feel like indulging the population density myth any more. Some selected population densities: Stockholm 4800 per sq km. London 5700 per sq km, Manchester 4700 per sq km, Birmingham 4200 per sq km. Malmo 4000 per sq km.

 

They've had 5,865 deaths on a population of 10,343,403. I make that 567 deaths per million.

 

So they obviously have a lower percentage of deaths than us, but the argument wasn't that they were more effective. It was that they've managed the situation without imposing fascism on their citizens.

[Davelfc]

1 minute ago, Bruce Spanner said:

I mean when it happened.

 

They lost all moral authority at that point, every thing else after that was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.

 

People are selfish cunts, but by and large they  understood the severity of the situation and were prepared to back it, after Dom’s jaunt you can kiss goodbye to that complicity.

 

 

While I get your point, I don't think it would have mattered, selfish thoughtless pricks would have found anther reason. to be selfish thoughtless pricks. The media hyped the whole mess up too, which doesn't help anyway 

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

This was pointed out to him the other day but as is always the case when it doesn't suit his narrative, he ignored it. 

 

I tend to ignore things that are factually incorrect.

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

It was that they've managed the situation without imposing fascism on their citizens.

Yes- they are better than you. They are in the same place - but I agree, they look marvelous in comparison.