Venezuela

[SasaS]

Typical Trump. Talk, Talk, talk. And now these fine gentlemen are in jail.

[Red Phoenix]

From The Guardian :

 

Quote

On Saturday morning, the Spanish government repeated its calls for free and clean elections and said it would recognise Guaidó as president if a vote was not announced.

“We’re not trying to install or remove governments in Venezuela,” the prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, said in a televised address.

 

 

But then....

 

Quote

“We want democracy and free elections in Venezuela … if free, fair and transparent elections are not called in Venezuela over the next eight days, Spain will recognise Juan Guaidó as the president of Venezuela.”

 

 

....will try to install a new government and remove the current one in eight days if the current demands aren't met. Bunch of stupid fucks.

 

Eight days! Fuck, they must be really desperate for that oil money. Horrible bunch of fucking scum. Maduro by the looks of it hasn't led his country properly, but what will come next for the people of Venezuela if this other scum is installed will probably lead to the country being sold out to the IMF, banks, oil cartels and other corporations. That isn't good for the Venezuelan people and is another confirmation from all leaders that support this other prick how fucked the rest of us currently are with them in charge of our countries. Horrible fucking cesspit of filth that history will shit on.

 

Usually wouldn't you think these leaders would issue a joint statement about Maduro needing to make serious reforms and hold fair elections in the not so distant future or something (meaning a lot longer than eight days, and at a date Maduro and his party chooses as long as it's not an insane amount of time away)? Where the fuck does eight days come from? Oh, check the amount of oil the country has, right.

 

So if this works Trump has backed and played part in his first coup. Let's hope he doesn't get a taste for it and that the cunt is impeached asap if it takes place. It doesn't seem to matter who's president as usual though, even Obama took part in ruining countries and maybe it's going to take someone like Warren or Sanders as president for it to finally stop for a while. Of course the big democratic party donors will probably try to install some other absolute shitstain as candidate instead so that things carry on as usual. What a fucking joke this all is.

[Strontium]

16 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The thing is, though, just about all of those comments were perfectly valid.  

 

Before Chavez, Venezuela was massively corrupt, unequal and not really democratic.  The Bolivarian Revolution genuinely did improve the lives of millions of people; however opposed to Socialism you might be, it would be stupid to try to deny that.  Likewise, it genuinely did provide inspiration to others throughout the world, who needed to believe in something better at a time when the economic consensus of The West was the debt-fuelled neoliberalism that was driving us toward the 2007/08 crash.

 

Ironically, it seems that the fundamental weakness of Chavista economics was the reliance on the most prized of Capitalist commodities, oil.  All the public health, housing, education, infrastructure, etc. programmes were funded by oil exports.  That immediately introduces structural tensions of a Socialist state in a Capitalist world; the most detailed and ambitious plans for the people would always be vulnerable to fluctuations in the price of oil or sanctions imposed (justly or otherwise) by Venezuela's export customers.

 

What has happened - and is happening - in Venezuela is a tragedy.  I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that US intervention, especially from the current stupid and bloodthirsty US regime, would only make it worse.

 

If only some of us could have foreseen something like that 12 years ago...

On 8/19/2007 at 12:17 AM, Strontium Dog said:

Chavez has destroyed all the country's non-oil industry. He is taking his country back in time from a relatively all-round prosperous economy (albeit with poor social care) to something resembling Saudi Arabia which will be hit by extreme poverty when the oil runs out.

 

[Strontium]

13 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

So nothing about us following Venezuela then? Just some stuff during austerity about another way other than austerity, and quotes about social justice. The idea that Corbyn is going to come in and turn the country into a corrupt shithole with hyperinflation just for lols is just ridiculous. BTW, Chavez did some things that were absolutely worthy of praise.

 

There are lots of things that lead to the way Venezuela currently is, not the things that Corbyn was praising. I mean, talking about social justice and ending austerity (which May just recently made a song and dance about) isn’t the same as wanting to turn the UK into Venezuela. 

 

Stronts, the guy wants to ensure the poor are looked after a bit better. I’ve no issue with people disagreeing with him or criticising him, I have many times, but this attempt to paint him as a malevolent commie here to inflict communist Russia on everyone is really ridiculous. 

 

I think what is ridiculous is the claim that anyone has attempted to paint Corbyn as a malevolent commie trying to turn us into communist Russia. They have merely pointed out that the regimes he idolises are bankrupt basketcases, with pretty awful human rights to boot.

 

If you want the poor looked after, then the only reliable way of doing that is to have a healthy, capitalist free market democracy with social safety net.

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

I think what is ridiculous is the claim that anyone has attempted to paint Corbyn as a malevolent commie trying to turn us into communist Russia. They have merely pointed out that the regimes he idolises are bankrupt basketcases, with pretty awful human rights to boot.

 

If you want the poor looked after, then the only reliable way of doing that is to have a healthy, capitalist free market democracy with social safety net.

Which is what we would be under Corbyn. And people have attempted to paint him as that and much more. 

[SasaS]

Recent Bloomberg article. Chavez bad, Morales good.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/view/venezuela-economic-collapse-has-lessons-for-america-s-socialists#gs.kaRFhuob

[moof]

The only way to look after the poor is with free market capitalism. I’m getting that tattooed 

[Hades]

17 minutes ago, moof said:

The only way to look after the poor is with free market capitalism. I’m getting that tattooed 

Sadly it's true. A system designed to pathologically extract as much surplus as possible from every lifeform will have an advantage over a system that doesn't. Parents need to recognise that there's no salvation in this world through politics and stop creating slaves for The Demiurge and its old money Archons.

[moof]

10 minutes ago, Hades said:

Sadly it's true. A system designed to pathologically extract as much surplus as possible from every lifeform will have an advantage over a system that doesn't. Parents need to recognise that there's no salvation in this world through politics and stop creating slaves for The Demiurge and its old money Archons.

It’s very not true 

[Red Phoenix]

37 minutes ago, Hades said:

Sadly it's true. A system designed to pathologically extract as much surplus as possible from every lifeform will have an advantage over a system that doesn't. Parents need to recognise that there's no salvation in this world through politics and stop creating slaves for The Demiurge and its old money Archons.

 

Repped for going gnostic on us.

[Denny Crane]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

If only some of us could have foreseen something like that 12 years ago...

 

 

Reads like the younger SD was wiser than the older SD as your comments support the "resource curse" not socialism as part of the problem. Incidentally some have suggested that countries rich in oil resources are more prone to being or evolve into autocratic regimes. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

If only some of us could have foreseen something like that 12 years ago...

 

Dredging up something you posted 12 years ago on some forum is perfectly normal behaviour. 

[SasaS]

I was reading more about Venezuela today and kept thinking how this would have been Ayn Rand's wet dream.

[Boss]

11 hours ago, moof said:

The only way to look after the poor is with free market capitalism. I’m getting that tattooed 

How are you going to help the poor if you've run out of money?

[aRdja]

6 minutes ago, Boss said:

How are you going to help the poor if you've run out of money?

I’d normally call my parents, exchange some pleasantries, tell them how much I look forward to seeing them next, before asking them to top up my account.

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, Boss said:

How are you going to help the poor if you've run out of money?

Why would you run out of money? 

[Jairzinho]

22 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I’d normally call my parents, exchange some pleasantries, tell them how much I look forward to seeing them next, before asking them to top up my account.

"Alright Da, print us a few billion would ya, cheers"

[Boss]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Why would you run out of money? 

I was referring to Venezuela. It's interesting that no socialist has explained the sense in Chavez nationalising all the farm land and food industries when the economy was so reliant on oil, or the sense in partaking in provocations with their biggest export market (America).

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, Boss said:

I was referring to Venezuela. 

The point you were referring to, and the point he was referring to, and the one that was referring to wasn’t in reference to Venezuela. Your point sounded general too. 

[Boss]

9 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

The point you were referring to, and the point he was referring to, and the one that was referring to wasn’t in reference to Venezuela. Your point sounded general too. 

 

He was mocking Stronts' claim that Socialism can only function successfully in a predominantly free market Capitalist country. He's alluding to the fact that Socialism had nothing to do with Venezuela's problems. I'm asking the Socialists to justify the logic in some of Chavez's and Maduro's policies - policies that were clearly detrimental to the economy. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

You can be a socialist and not agree with everything Chávez did. You shouldn’t conflate Chávez and Maduro either. You might want to see all socialists as one easily dismissed, group thinking homogeneous lump but they’re not. I mean, what is socialist about being a prick to America? Nothing. 

 

Also, I don’t think your view of what was claimed is accurate at all.

[Boss]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

You can be a socialist and not agree with everything Chávez did. You shouldn’t conflate Chávez and Maduro either. You might want to see all socialists as one easily dismissed, group thinking homogeneous lump but they’re not. 

Well Corbyn did agree with what Chavez did, he referred to Chavez as a source of inspiration and eulogised his policies. Ideologically they are very similar.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Boss said:

Well Corbyn did agree with what Chavez did, he referred to Chavez as a source of inspiration and eulogised his policies. Ideologically they are very similar.

He was talking about austerity at the time, but I think agreeing with what Chávez did to help feed the poorest in a third world country is different to what you’d do in a first world country. There’s no doubt Corbyn would was to increase social projects. He’s hardly going to go for a non-market economy. It’s a strange attempt to imply his support for Chavez is indicative or where we’d be under Corbyn. Basically it’s ‘if you vote for Corbyn you’ll get Maduro and we will end up like Venezuela’ but without the bottle to say it because it’s so fucking ridiculous. 

[Rico1304]

6 minutes ago, Boss said:

Well Corbyn did agree with what Chavez did, he referred to Chavez as a source of inspiration and eulogised his policies. Ideologically they are very similar.

23 early day motions apparently 

[cloggypop]

That'll be the vegetarian diet.