Safe Standing at Anfield

[Trumo]

I think with ayre saying we'd look at it means its been discussed.

 

We could stay at anfield with a bigger capacity with next to no re-building work.

 

The problem is, even if converting the Kop to safe standing allows a bigger capacity in the ground, you need to consider other factors like the number of exits, toilets etc. We'd still need to gain a safety certificate, and a rolled up Echo wouldn't be permissible any more.

 

The capacity increase wouldn't be significant enough to justify the trouble and expense, and we'd still need to consider other factors to bring the stadium up to date and fit for purpose. All those less welcome additions such as media facilities and corporate boxes still have to be considered.

 

However, if the site could be redeveloped, and safe standing become permissible, then it's something I would look into, taking into account the views of those who are perhaps against standing full-stop.

[zigackly]

It's not about capacity for me, it's about not having to sit down half the time when you want to stand up. We're not talking about the whole ground, we're talking about small sections for those who want it, with proper safety measures in place. It's not about a return to the old style terraces, as that photograph demonstrates. If you have properly controlled access to safe standing areas and proper safety barriers to prevent crowd surges, then it's actually at least as safe as the situation in the kop on euro nights or the situation at any away game now, and technically it's actually safer.

[Jamie-H]

I was at Hillsborough and luckily escaped over the fence.

 

I always felt that a disaster like that would never happen again in an all seater stadium.

 

However the events at Athens changed my view on that. For every seat in our end I reckon there were 3 people standing in the row.

 

After a long hard think, I have to say it is really all down to the crowd control outside and the turnstile operation. If you get that right, delay kick offs if there is large congestion of fans arriving late for one reason or another then it should or could be safe whether its terracing or seating.

 

I do agree with Kenny though and feel that any decision should be made after the HJC have found proper justice.

[nickjt]

(I meant to quote someone earlier who put about been at Hillsborough and Heysel and asked if anyone who voted yes was at either disaster)

I'm 25 and wasn't at either. My dad was at both and many of his match going mates were at one or both. While not doing a poll on them I know the vast majority are in favour of standing. I think this is the case for most of our fanbase, this is evident from the last few years. I think I'm right in saying that since our all seated stadium, persistent standing (i.e. a full match) was very rare, if ever, until 2001. We had those exciting European nights back and the Kop rose again. This started as a something that only happened for massive matches. Since then it's creeped in more and more, where now we go to a high profile, but still normal, league match and the kop is standing throughout (eg Arsenal at the start of the season).

I hope to see standing back again, I hate going to Anfield some games now, I goto football to support LFC, for a drink with my mates and for the atmosphere, the PL has proven, particurlarly up against the Bundesliga, that all seater stadia does not provide atmosphere.

[WaltonRed]

I think its a sign of the country as a whole, sit down, shut up, and pay through the nose for the experience.

[JohnnyH]

I was at Hillsborough and luckily escaped over the fence.

 

I always felt that a disaster like that would never happen again in an all seater stadium.

 

However the events at Athens changed my view on that. For every seat in our end I reckon there were 3 people standing in the row.

 

After a long hard think, I have to say it is really all down to the crowd control outside and the turnstile operation. If you get that right, delay kick offs if there is large congestion of fans arriving late for one reason or another then it should or could be safe whether its terracing or seating.

 

I do agree with Kenny though and feel that any decision should be made after the HJC have found proper justice.

 

Getting into the ground that day was a total joke. To have a match at a stadium that has no turnstile is utter madness and meant people could just stroll in. The huge crush I got stuck in going in (mainly caused by police bottleknock and batton charge/tear gassing for no reason whatsoever) was very scary but using that stadium was madness.

 

What happened at Athens couldn't happen at any ground in England.

[zigackly]

Getting into the ground that day was a total joke. To have a match at a stadium that has no turnstile is utter madness and meant people could just stroll in. The huge crush I got stuck in going in (mainly caused by police bottleknock and batton charge/tear gassing for no reason whatsoever) was very scary but using that stadium was madness.

 

What happened at Athens couldn't happen at any ground in England.

 

But that's a very relevant point. It's not the presence or absence of seats which can cause a tragedy but the control of access to sections of the stadia.

[JohnnyH]

But that's a very relevant point. It's not the presence or absence of seats which can cause a tragedy but the control of access to sections of the stadia.

 

There is no doubt that is correct, or there would have been crushing disasters regularly. But they did happen, just not with teh catastrophic resutls we suffered. Don't forget something like 41 Spurs fans were taken to hospital with crush injuries from the Leppings Lane end after the 1981 semi.

 

I think it's a very valid point that with seats in situ it massively limits the chance of human error causing a crush.

[zigackly]

I think it's a very valid point that with seats in situ it massively limits the chance of human error causing a crush.

 

I'm afraid I can't agree Johnny. Even Lord Taylor said in his report that standing accommodation is not intrinsically unsafe. The police at Hillsborough had cameras pointing into the crowd and showing the images in their control room, and could see that the central pen was at or over capacity, yet they still opened Gate C and failed to divert supporters into the side pens as had been done previously at the ground. How would having seats have stopped that on the day?

[Lucky Pierre]

There would be no need to change the structure of any stadium either. Anyone who's been on the Kop on a European night or a Man U/Chelsea/Everton/Arsenal match or been in the away end of an LFC game knows that we could have safe standing with the structure we have now. You can still keep the seats in for anyone who either wants to sit at HT/before the game or who may need 5 minutes resting their legs etc.

[RedinSweden]

Always an interesting read whenever the all-seater debate comes up. Seems it wasn't just our safety they were bothered about.

 

Play the Game: Pel Stadium Seating's Owes Its Success to the Hillsborough Disaster

[JohnnyH]

I'm afraid I can't agree Johnny. Even Lord Taylor said in his report that standing accommodation is not intrinsically unsafe. The police at Hillsborough had cameras pointing into the crowd and showing the images in their control room, and could see that the central pen was at or over capacity, yet they still opened Gate C and failed to divert supporters into the side pens as had been done previously at the ground. How would having seats have stopped that on the day?

 

I 100% disagree with you.

 

We know that standing is not intrinsically unsafe, by the simple fact that games passed off without any incident week in week out. However, I think you are wrong if you think that seating doesn't make the chance of a crush much much less likely. With terraces people just head out on to them and then try and find a bit of space. You enter the terrace from any point you want and go to any part of it. With seating you are looking first to see if you need to go right or left to your access point and then you have to move up set walking areas before entering your designated spot. Much much different.

 

If seats had been in the Leppings Lane end in 1989 there may very well have still been a crush and injuries and possibly deaths, but I don't think the level of disaster that unfolded that day would have happened. But it is something we will never know and we have to now look forward and wonder does seating make the place safer, and for me it does and limits the chance of mass groups of people trying to get into one confined area.

 

We all remember the crushes and tight spaces we were in during the terraces days. Sometimes these were quite uncomfortable and it was nice to finally get your spot and gather yourself. That has not happened to me once since seating.

 

I agree that the discussion needs to be had about a return to limited terracing. But safety has to be paramount.

[RedinSweden]

I 100% disagree with you.

 

We know that standing is not intrinsically unsafe, by the simple fact that games passed off without any incident week in week out. However, I think you are wrong if you think that seating doesn't make the chance of a crush much much less likely. With terraces people just head out on to them and then try and find a bit of space. You enter the terrace from any point you want and go to any part of it. With seating you are looking first to see if you need to go right or left to your access point and then you have to move up set walking areas before entering your designated spot. Much much different.

 

If seats had been in the Leppings Lane end in 1989 there may very well have still been a crush and injuries and possibly deaths, but I don't think the level of disaster that unfolded that day would have happened. But it is something we will never know and we have to now look forward and wonder does seating make the place safer, and for me it does and limits the chance of mass groups of people trying to get into one confined area.

 

We all remember the crushes and tight spaces we were in during the terraces days. Sometimes these were quite uncomfortable and it was nice to finally get your spot and gather yourself. That has not happened to me once since seating.

 

I agree that the discussion needs to be had about a return to limited terracing. But safety has to be paramount.

 

You are only talking about the old fashioned terraces though, there are different ways of doing it.

[Lucky Pierre]

If we're talking terraces, then it is a 100% no from me to bringing them back. Standing areas where you have an allocated place is different though, I feel.

[zigackly]

I 100% disagree with you.

 

Because it's such a sensitive subject, I'm not going to pick points with you. I'll just say that Hillsborough was caused by allowing too many people to enter too short a space in too short a time and that I think you're wrong that furniture had anything to do with it. Please let's just leave it that we disagree.

 

The point of safe standing is that it has to be ensured that it's safe. I don't think anyone here would want it if it wasn't going to be so.

[Guest ShoePiss]

If we're talking terraces, then it is a 100% no from me to bringing them back. Standing areas where you have an allocated place is different though, I feel.

 

 

Agree with this, it seems like there are two issues being rolled into one here. Looking at ways to increase capacity and improving atmosphere in the ground.

 

The old kop certainly wasn't safe, every game I'd see people being passed down to the front and helped by St.Johns and it happened to me once as a kid due to being crushed and passing out.

 

I think if they simply stated that standing is allowed and encouraged on the kop in it's current layout it would make a difference and if people want to sit through the entire game there are 3 other stands to choose from.

[JohnnyH]

Because it's such a sensitive subject, I'm not going to pick points with you. I'll just say that Hillsborough was caused by allowing too many people to enter too short a space in too short a time and that I think you're wrong that furniture had anything to do with it. Please let's just leave it that we disagree.

 

The point of safe standing is that it has to be ensured that it's safe. I don't think anyone here would want it if it wasn't going to be so.

 

I know what happened at Hillsborough.

 

We are in agreement as to why and how it happened as those simply are the undisputable facts so there is no discussion required on that.

 

The discussion as to whether "furniture" would have made a difference is very relevant though and absolutely needs to be referred to in any proactive discussion on the topic. I fully understand if you don't want to discuss it as it is a very emotive topic, but I sincerely hope that the people who are going to finally make the decision re bringing standing back discuss it long and hard.

[JohnnyH]

You are only talking about the old fashioned terraces though, there are different ways of doing it.

 

Absolutely. And the allocated standing area which can become a seat for European games is something that should be seriously considered. As I said earlier though, I can't see how that would make any difference to the capacity of the stadium so no club is going to pay the sums required to do it. However, in a newly built or refurbished stadium like we may have, it would be possible.

[RafaLaBamba]

I'm all for safe standing. The sad fact is we haven't been able to create the kind of atmosphere's that we used and I believe that this is most certainly due to all seating. It must be 100% safe though, that is the absolute key. Hillsborough wasnt down to standing, it was down to incredibly poor policing from top to bottom, as we all well know. A way that we can pay tribute to those 96 fanatics who lost thier life because of that tragic day is for us to help create a standing are which is 100% safe. If it is safe and the atmosphere improves then everyone is a winner.

[mypost]

I 100% disagree with you.

 

We know that standing is not intrinsically unsafe, by the simple fact that games passed off without any incident week in week out. However, I think you are wrong if you think that seating doesn't make the chance of a crush much much less likely. With terraces people just head out on to them and then try and find a bit of space. You enter the terrace from any point you want and go to any part of it. With seating you are looking first to see if you need to go right or left to your access point and then you have to move up set walking areas before entering your designated spot. Much much different.

 

If seats had been in the Leppings Lane end in 1989 there may very well have still been a crush and injuries and possibly deaths, but I don't think the level of disaster that unfolded that day would have happened. But it is something we will never know and we have to now look forward and wonder does seating make the place safer, and for me it does and limits the chance of mass groups of people trying to get into one confined area.

 

I agree that the discussion needs to be had about a return to limited terracing. But safety has to be paramount.

 

Agreed.

 

Well before most of our times, but if you look at some of the footage from the 60's and 70's when our goals were scored at the Kop end, immediately followed by a mass surge forward of fans, you wonder how people weren't injured.

 

But even countries like Germany though (where standing for domestic games is allowed) have to ban standing for all European and international games, due to UEFA regulations. It's a lot of hassle involved, and all it takes is one incident to make the whole argument over standing meaningless. If there were seats in the lower tier of the Leppings Lane, every ticket would have had an allocated seat, and a crush (even with police incompetence) would have been highly unlikely.

 

Whatever about atmosphere, the most important feature in any stadium today, is how safe it is. If all seater stadiums best ensure that safety, then that's the model that should be followed.

[zigackly]

But even countries like Germany though (where standing for domestic games is allowed) have to ban standing for all European and international games, due to UEFA regulations. It's a lot of hassle involved, and all it takes is one incident to make the whole argument over standing meaningless. If there were seats in the lower tier of the Leppings Lane, every ticket would have had an allocated seat, and a crush (even with police incompetence) would have been highly unlikely.

 

You are propagating the myth, not examining the facts. The tragedy occurred because the police opened Gate C, due to pressure outside because of late arriving fans due to traffic incidents on the motorway, and then failed to divert them into side pens. This is a matter of established fact. I suggest you do some reading on the subject before implying it was ticketless fans like many absolute cunts do who support other clubs.

[mypost]

We know how it occurred, it's how to prevent it in the future is the question. All seater stadiums that have a ticket to each seat, instead of just a ticket, drastically cut the chances of it re-occurring. To that extent, the current set-up works.

[Phoenix]

No....i dont think there is such a thing.

[redmachine23]

It's such an emotive topic that it's hard to be impartial.

 

Listening to Kenny speak on this a few days back and you could see he hates the idea of it. He just doesn't even want to entertain the thought of going back to terraces no matter how safe they are perceived. But when you consider Kenny was at the Ibrox, Heysel and Hillsborough disasters, I don't think it's any surprise that he will be hard to coonvince on this.

 

However, I do think it's up for debate. As has been said, people stand on the Kop anyway now so what difference would it make other then to make the area designated safe. However, as the standing area would need to be able to change to a seated area for European games, then it would be difficult to increase capacity so I doubt many clubs will be willing to spend the big money to develope this with no reasonable commercial benifet. However, for a new stadium it would be possible.

 

As difficult as it is, people directly affected by Hillsborough, be it through family members injured or lost, or through been in the ground on the day, need to try and divorce themselves from this when discussing it. Standing didn’t kill those people that day. Atrocious police control did. But then on the other side of the coin, had the Leppings Lane end been seated that day, then everyone would have almost certainly come home safe as it would have removed the ability for such grave human error to result in such a catastrophic loss of life in that way.

 

I was in a coma after Hillsborough and it totally fucked my whole family and my life since. Still would love to have safe standing back on the Kop.

Standing had nothing to do with the disaster. Utter negligence and incompetance did.

[Jonny83]

I wasn't at Hillsborough or know anyone personally who was, and was too young to remember it first hand, so to be honest in this discussion I'd probably happily defer to anyone with more knowledge.

 

The only thing that comes to my mind though, is aside from the obvious police incompetence, is the fencing? I assume safe standing would not go hand-in-hand with a return to fences, so in a Hillsborough-like situation there would be a mass spill of fans onto the pitch rather than a devastating crush?

 

But like I said, I wasn't there and maybe a fenceless Hillsborough may have still seen 1 or 2 people killed, which obviously is 1 or 2 too many.