A serious question for this site

[Red Nick]

You talk a hell of alot of shit sometimes.

 

 

 

The point being is there is another option open to the cunts who are running our club if RBS insist on the debt being reduced from 220M to 125M. Its obviously very clear that they don’t have the funds.

 

Our operating profit is currently around 30m which is likely to increase even with the 5m or so we will lose from CL when all the new sponsorship deals are factored in.

 

So the solution for the owners is a very simple one if they don’t get investment

 

Sell

 

Torres 80m

Gerrard 40m

Johnson 15m

Voronin 2m

Babel 5m

Mascher 25m

Reira 5m

 

Total sales 170m

 

Buy Flamini and Heskey 10m

 

160M net and then reduce debt to 100m and then you can get any bank to lend you the money which would cost no more than 5m a year to service. The real secret here is to sell your best players to get a reduction in wage bill with NI 28m -30m. the Manager would then be given 40m to invest in the team but told whatever players he brings in must cost a yearly maximum of 12m in wages.

 

Your situation after all this has taken place is an operating profit of 50m from which you need to deduct 20m for no CL income and 5m so service the debt thus leaving 25m a year operation profit for the Americans to invest in the team as long as they keep the wages static. In reality this will allow us a team that will finish 6th to 12th every season until they find a buyer for the club.

 

Not a great solution for the club but a way the owners could get the debt down and still take money from the club.

 

The point of this option is to just illustrate why the owners aren’t going anywhere and if the did exercise this option we are far from the position Leeds Utd where in.

 

There are obvious different variant models the owners could apply around this them but a very serious solution for them if they don’t get the investment into the club.

[Red Nick]

From which point in time?

 

A fair question that one.

 

Even if you take it from the start of the previous season you could easily argue he has taken us backwards.

 

If you say from when he first started then he is probably slightly ahead of the game.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

A fair question that one.

 

Even if you take it from the start of the previous season you could easily argue he has taken us backwards.

 

If you say from when he first started then he is probably slightly ahead of the game.

 

I think it is only fair to look at the whole time. We're having a really bad blip, added to by some bad injuries and some bizarre decisions, but overall we've had a wild ride with moments that will live in my mind forever. Our squad isn't great at this moment in time but our first team, if it ever gets together, has improved greatly. We did really well last season. So well that we were a wrongly disallowed goal and a silly draw against Arsenal (or a number of other things) away from winning the league. Sure, we've started this season like a wet turd on a cashmere sweater, but we're not as bad as we seem at the moment and judging a 5 year spell over 10 games isn't going to give us an accurate picture.

 

All in all, I'd say that the line is certainly going upwards, even if there is enough peaks and troughs to make a heart rate monitor look smooth.

[Red Nick]

Rather than start another thread a question for you all

 

Is it possible to support the team and not the manager?

[TheBitch]

Rather than start another thread a question for you all

 

Is it possible to support the team and not the manager?

 

Yes.

 

I currently do.

[Dirty Parry]

makes me wonder this stuff people come out with saying we nearly won the title last season so rafa is doing well. i nearly won the euro millions 2 weeks ago but somehow i dont feel rich.

 

in his 5 years hes had one title challenge. whichever way you look at it its not good enough. time to move him on.

[Iantn]

It's not mere its huge so i hear.

 

Hugely more than a signing on fee he'd get from Real?

 

 

I agree it does sound stupid, but Si is not the first person I've heard say, not by a long chalk.

 

Anyone who suggests that any manager makes decisions to get them sacked in a society that is now so much fuckin reputation based is beyond stupid.

 

In fact I go as far as to say anyone who suggests it needs sectioning.

 

 

 

Why we even use 2 holding mid's anyway baffles me.

 

Was Xabi not a holding midfielder?

 

Given the fact he played most of his football deeper than Lucas, Mascherano, Gerrard or Spearing have done for us I'd say he qualifies as that in your eyes.

[The Chief]

Rather than start another thread a question for you all

 

Is it possible to support the team and not the manager?

 

You gave me a load of stick for posting a poll and getting people's opinions on Rafa*, then you come along and start this thread in which your own views have changed about 4 times that I can see. and this question is the stupidest of them all, Are you really suggesting some people ONLY support the manager and not the team. I'd've thought it was blatantly obvious, we ALL support Liverpool Football Club, owners, board members, players, managers, fuck, even fans come and go, the one constant is the club.

 

*I'll be redoing that poll after Christmas to see how the feeling is then.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Aw fuck it, I'll bite.

 

I don't think he is taking Liverpool FC backwards, because we can't go much further back anymore really. I'm saying this because I think Rafa now realises that he's in the shit big time with the fans, (I said they'd roll out the "Aquilani ready to play" stuff over the week, but Rafa did it straight after the game apparently, so I'm sure he knows he's in big shit here.) and when his back is up against the wall I think he'll try and work out what's pissing the fans off so much, have a good look at the situation and then try a lot harder to get it sorted out, because he loves the club.

 

If we didn't have Aquilani I'd not be writing this, but I think he's going to give us exactly what we need in the center of midfield + creatively further forward. Then he's going to get some results before christmas and things will have settled down a bit.

 

Then, knowing how seriously close he came to completely fucking everything up, he'll start using his head a lot more when it comes to transfer windows. Players like Babel, Voronin, etc, he won't fuck around with them anymore and they'll be off, and he'll start concentrating a lot more on getting effective attacking players brought into the side. N'gog wasn't on the pitch yesterday and we had Kuyt up there and it clearly wasn't good enough, and he must realise that attacking players have to be brought in now.

 

So as for now, he's fucked up big time, but I think he'll learn from it because of the sheer amount of Liverpool fans he's really angered.

 

So nope, I don't think Rafa's perfect, and yep, I think he's made a huge mess recently, but I think he'll learn from it and sort things out. I'm basically holding out until january before I throw my toys out the pram, because I have a feeling he'll sort things out this time as he knows this is probably his last chance.

 

What happens now then? Do a mob of you line me up and shoot me? Or is it me getting tied to a stake while atk fetches the petrol? I'm just trying to hold onto my last bit of patience and hope, as I think there's a chance it'll be worth it.

 

 

*Looks forward to seeing number 19 paraded around the city next year* hmmm.

[shaunstrudwick]

I fully understand that his hands were tied with transfer funds during the summer, but even back then the majority on here were screaming for another centre forward, he didnt go for it but decided to gamble on Torres remaining fit. A gamble that has backfired dramatically.

 

after the Keane debacle i think he deliberately shyed away from looking at another striker

 

this was a massive error imo

[JohnnyH]

Taking Ancelottis Chelsea career from his last game, I don't see how anyone can't say he isn't taking the Chelsea team backwards.

[Guest ian garro]

In answer to the original question, reasons I dont think he is taking us backwards - now, or at any point in his tenure:

 

Stadio Delle Alpi '05

Anfield '05 (Vs Chelsea, CL Semi 2nd leg)

Istanbul '05

Cardiff '06

Nou Camp '07

San Siro '07

Bernabeu '09

Anfield '09 (Vs Real Madrid CL)

Old Trafford '09

How I felt when Yossi put in that winner V Fulham last year.

 

Most of the above, were results we couldnt have even dreamed of, the state we were in when he first arrived.

 

A bad start to the season ? Yes. Out of the title race already ? Most probably. Taking us backwards ? No. Deserving of the abuse he gets on here ? Most definately not.

[Red Nick]

You gave me a load of stick for posting a poll and getting people's opinions on Rafa*, then you come along and start this thread in which your own views have changed about 4 times that I can see. and this question is the stupidest of them all, Are you really suggesting some people ONLY support the manager and not the team. I'd've thought it was blatantly obvious, we ALL support Liverpool Football Club, owners, board members, players, managers, fuck, even fans come and go, the one constant is the club.

 

*I'll be redoing that poll after Christmas to see how the feeling is then.

 

Appologies

 

Its how I felt at the time

[Red Nick]

So another questions for you folks.

 

Say Rafa sort of turns things round and averages two points a game from now to the end of the season and we end up on 67 plus points finish 4th.

 

How many of you who think Rafa should no longer be our manager would still hold that view and how many of you think he should go regardless of what he does from now to the end of the season.

[Antynwa]

So another questions for you folks.

 

Say Rafa sort of turns things round and averages two points a game from now to the end of the season and we end up on 67 plus points finish 4th.

 

How many of you who think Rafa should no longer be our manager would still hold that view and how many of you think he should go regardless of what he does from now to the end of the season.

 

I don't know what I would think.

 

My expectation was a title challenge and trophy in the summer, now although we can win a trophy we are out of the league race.

 

The season IMO is already a failure, it's only compromise now.

[tenner]

I don't know what I would think.

 

My expectation was a title challenge and trophy in the summer, now although we can win a trophy we are out of the league race.

 

The season IMO is already a failure, it's only compromise now.

 

Still think he has to go and take the yanks with him.

[Warwick Hunt]

A side point but possibly a worthy one.

 

If anyone of Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United lost their manager now, do you think anyone of them teams would actively pursue Benitez as a manager?

 

I'd expect them all to view Benitez as a fairly hefty step down.

 

Perhaps City would see it as an improvement but I don't think they'd welcome it with cheers from the rooftops.

 

I think Benitez's reputation and persona as a manager in the English league is flawed. I agree that he could probably take his pick of jobs anywhere in the rest of Europe but I think the odds will always be stacked against him here.

 

That in mind, is it unfair to question any Liverpool fan who expresses a lot of doubt over where we are going under the current manager?

 

I think there's an element of blind loyalty, apathy with the Americans (the Klinsmann saga was ammunition for a mutiny) , and what happened in 2005 that is sustaining Benitez in the eyes of many fans. Last season was a success in the League which oiled the new contract, but for a lot of genuine Liverpool fans there were many things wrong which still left an unsavoury taste.

 

The backlash started before the team walked out at White Hart Lane in August.

[Whelan]

Last season was a success in the League which oiled the new contract, but for a lot of genuine Liverpool fans there were many things wrong which still left an unsavoury taste.

 

The backlash started before the team walked out at White Hart Lane in August.

 

For starters, what things left an unsavoury taste?

 

And secondly, there are a lot of 'genuine liverpool fans' who are behind the manager, and do not want him sacked.

[Red Nick]

A side point but possibly a worthy one.

 

If anyone of Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United lost their manager now, do you think anyone of them teams would actively pursue Benitez as a manager?

 

I'd expect them all to view Benitez as a fairly hefty step down.

 

Perhaps City would see it as an improvement but I don't think they'd welcome it with cheers from the rooftops.

 

I think Benitez's reputation and persona as a manager in the English league is flawed. I agree that he could probably take his pick of jobs anywhere in the rest of Europe but I think the odds will always be stacked against him here.

 

That in mind, is it unfair to question any Liverpool fan who expresses a lot of doubt over where we are going under the current manager?

 

I think there's an element of blind loyalty, apathy with the Americans (the Klinsmann saga was ammunition for a mutiny) , and what happened in 2005 that is sustaining Benitez in the eyes of many fans. Last season was a success in the League which oiled the new contract, but for a lot of genuine Liverpool fans there were many things wrong which still left an unsavoury taste.

 

The backlash started before the team walked out at White Hart Lane in August.

 

Very good point

 

Its is only diehard LFC fans who see Rafa as a good manager.

[Warwick Hunt]

For starters, what things left an unsavoury taste?

 

And secondly, there are a lot of 'genuine liverpool fans' who are behind the manager, and do not want him sacked.

 

Well, for me:

 

1. The handling of the Barry/Alonso saga

2. The handling of the whole Robbie Keane issue, i.e. the early substitutions and the transparency of his dislike for the player and hurriedness of his exit, when other players have been persisted with so strongly (and are still yet to deliver)

3. The Fergie rant never ever sat well with me, I thought it was out of character, out of place, woefully mistimed and nothing good was ever going to come out of it. It quite possibly won the mancs the title.

4. Largely poor quality football. Yes, I was blinded by the thumpings of Real Madrid, United away etc. But for every one of those there was a Fulham or West Ham at home. And scoring goals for fun is fine when you're not conceding.

 

 

On your second point about the genuine fans thing. I'm not going to argue that there are fors and againsts. It's all down to opinions, and no one or side is 'wrong'. both 'sides' are continuing to make fair and valid points. The integrity of a supporter has no bearing with their attitude towards the manager

[The Chief]

A side point but possibly a worthy one.

 

If anyone of Arsenal, Chelsea or Manchester United lost their manager now, do you think anyone of them teams would actively pursue Benitez as a manager?

 

I'd expect them all to view Benitez as a fairly hefty step down.

 

Perhaps City would see it as an improvement but I don't think they'd welcome it with cheers from the rooftops.

 

I think Benitez's reputation and persona as a manager in the English league is flawed. I agree that he could probably take his pick of jobs anywhere in the rest of Europe but I think the odds will always be stacked against him here.

 

That in mind, is it unfair to question any Liverpool fan who expresses a lot of doubt over where we are going under the current manager?

 

I think there's an element of blind loyalty, apathy with the Americans (the Klinsmann saga was ammunition for a mutiny) , and what happened in 2005 that is sustaining Benitez in the eyes of many fans. Last season was a success in the League which oiled the new contract, but for a lot of genuine Liverpool fans there were many things wrong which still left an unsavoury taste.

 

The backlash started before the team walked out at White Hart Lane in August.

 

Sorry mate, but you're wrong, I think Arsenal and especially the chavs would take him like a shot, his record in Europe would earn him a place at almost any other European club, and it's what Arse and Abramovich crave more than anything. And are you SERIOUSLY saying Mark Hughes is a better manager than him?

[Warwick Hunt]

Sorry mate, but you're wrong, I think Arsenal and especially the chavs would take him like a shot, his record in Europe would earn him a place at almost any other European club, and it's what Arse and Abramovich crave more than anything. And are you SERIOUSLY saying Mark Hughes is a better manager than him?

 

 

If we're talking European Cup success then I don't think Chelsea have much to lose in the way of Ancelotti.

 

Arsenal's predicament is tricky because I think there are signs of doubt creeping in over Wenger, but overall I would say their fans are pretty happy with what they've achieved and the way they've played under Wenger. Lets see what the score is on Sunday.

 

Incidentally they're still both in the Champions League as we speak and either could win it this season.

 

 

Rafa's Champions League record reads like this: Winners, 1st Knockout, Runners Up, Semis, Quarters, Group Stage.

 

And for a manager who's reputation has been built on success in Europe, the evidence suggests that reputation is dwindling.

 

 

Rafa v Mark Hughes is a different ball game altogether. If Hughes gets City into 4th or better this season then I think he will have done a remarkable job, regardless of the money at his disposal. At the end of the day, I don't see City's side as being better than ours (apart from the strength in depth up front). Therefore I'd wait until the end of the season before making that judgement.

[Brownie]

Sorry mate, but you're wrong, I think Arsenal and especially the chavs would take him like a shot, his record in Europe would earn him a place at almost any other European club, and it's what Arse and Abramovich crave more than anything. And are you SERIOUSLY saying Mark Hughes is a better manager than him?

 

Since Rafa has been here:

 

Liverpool - Winners, 2nd round, Final, Semi-Final, Quarter-Final.

Chelsea - Semi-Final, 2nd Round, Semi-Final, Final, Semi-Final.

Arsenal - 2nd Round, Final, 2nd Round, Quarter-Final, Semi-Final.

 

If you put together a points system with the following:

 

Winners = 5 points.

Final = 4 points.

Semi-Final = 3 points.

Quarter Final = 2 points.

Second Round = 1 point.

 

Liverpool = 15 points.

Chelsea = 14 points.

Arsenal = 11 points.

 

 

I'd hardly say that either of those clubs would, 'take him in a shot' especially considering league performances and the fact that those points tallies will only get worse for us after this season.

 

If anything, the pattern indicates that Chelsea and Arsenal are improving in the CL whereas we are getting worse?