Transfer market Rafa vs Houllier

[RedKnight]

I reckon Rafa has the edge. After all, Houllier is older and has had heart problems. Piece of piss for Rafa.

[Roy Hobbs]

Those numbers mean absolutely nothing. Rafa sold Diouf, Rafa sold Cisse, but surely you don’t say he’s responsible for bringing them in. Houllier sold Fowler to Leeds for £8M. Would you give him credit for that?

 

Amongst the players bought by Rafa (£126M) are the ones who’s still here! (Torres etc.) Here’s puzzle for you: You have two bananas in your hand. You put one of them in your fridge. How many bananas do you have now?

 

I stand by what I said. The shite Houllier brought us has cost the club a lot. Those brought in by Rafa has been or could be sold without a loss, probably a profit.

 

That's the most important part of this analysis. The value of our squad ATM is far, far higher than when GH left.

 

Rafa has done a remarkable job IMO. Noone seems to factor in our wage bill. That restricted Rafa a LOT until last summer. The wages given to Cheyrou, Daio, Diouf, The Gems meant we had no chance of selling until their contracts ran out.

[Paul]

That's the most important part of this analysis. The value of our squad ATM is far, far higher than when GH left.

 

Rafa has done a remarkable job IMO. Noone seems to factor in our wage bill. That restricted Rafa a LOT until last summer. The wages given to Cheyrou, Daio, Diouf, The Gems meant we had no chance of selling until their contracts ran out.

 

Surely the most important part of any analysis of a manager's transfer record is how good the players were?

[Roy Hobbs]

Surely the most important part of any analysis of a manager's transfer record is how good the players were?

 

Not if you were the owners or the CEO. It's the value of the players, surely. We couldn't give away a lot of GH's squad. Why? long contracts on far too much money. Surely you can see how that hindered us.

[Paul]

Not if you were the owners or the CEO. It's the value of the players, surely. We couldn't give away a lot of GH's squad. Why? long contracts on far too much money. Surely you can see how that hindered us.

 

The value in a football club comes from success on the pitch. That requires good players.

[Roy Hobbs]

The value in a football club comes from success on the pitch. That requires good players.

 

 

Good players require a large investment. Rafa has missed out on his first targets so often, inparticular on the wings. If we had Alves, Simao, Malouda etc it is quite conceivable to imagine us in a much better position on the table.

 

IMO Rafa has done as well as anyone in the transfer market as he could considering his restrictions. I am sure he disappointed by some buys and Kuyt is one that must keep him up at night. Kuyt is a good player but his inability to add a goal threat to his play is costing Rafa his job IMO.

[Paul]

Good players require a large investment. Rafa has missed out on his first targets so often, inparticular on the wings. If we had Alves, Simao, Malouda etc it is quite conceivable to imagine us in a much better position on the table.

 

IMO Rafa has done as well as anyone in the transfer market as he could considering his restrictions. I am sure he disappointed by some buys and Kuyt is one that must keep him up at night. Kuyt is a good player but his inability to add a goal threat to his play is costing Rafa his job IMO.

 

But he could have had one of those players if he'd not been so insistent on having at least two mediocre, but affordable players for every position rather than one player of genuine quality for each position and one make-do-and-mend or a couple of utility players to fill out the squad. In such a scenario Kuyt would never have been bought (nor would many others, actually).

[Erik T]

Does it? Perhaps if the owners dont forward more money to Benitez he may have to start playing people out of position too. I suspect Ged started playing people out of position if he was told there's no more money.

 

Unfortunately, Benitez is already playing people out of position. Gerrard as a "second striker" just doesn't seem to work (maybe except for the most terrible defenses like Newcastle's).

[Dirk]

But he could have had one of those players if he'd not been so insistent on having at least two mediocre, but affordable players for every position rather than one player of genuine quality for each position and one make-do-and-mend or a couple of utility players to fill out the squad. In such a scenario Kuyt would never have been bought (nor would many others, actually).

 

If we'd not had Kuyt last season, we'd have had Crouch and Bellamy and Cisse. In hindsight, Kuyt looks like a mistake but he had a fantastic goal record and we weren't blessed with the benefit of hindsight. Kuyt has scored more Premiership goals in a single season for Liverpool than all of them. We needed a striker. It was this season that I didn't understand some of the buys, prior to that, I'd more or less felt Rafa had bought players for the required positions. However, if we lose out Mascherano, which is looking increasingly likely, then Lucas will turn out to be a shrewed buy and if Babel fulfills his potential (I am still uncertain of him) then we won't need to buy a second striker and we can look to strengthen on the wings.

 

There are no easy solutions to this problem, we are in competition with businesses that can spend hundreds of millions on their squads, many people don't realise the enormity of this spend, it's as if such numbers become abstract, oblique figures but they are huge amounts of money. Rafa has been identifying quality players ever since he has been here but he's not always been able to acquire those players, many of them end up going elsewhere through a seeming combination of a lack of funds and a slowness to move in the market. Our first player to cost anything close to £20 million happened this summer and I think that is telling. Rafa has done extremely well in the transfer market but there's always room for improvement from both himself and the board.

[Paul]

If we'd not had Kuyt last season, we'd have had Crouch and Bellamy and Cisse. In hindsight, Kuyt looks like a mistake but he had a fantastic goal record and we weren't blessed with the benefit of hindsight. Kuyt has scored more Premiership goals in a single season for Liverpool than all of them. We needed a striker. It was this season that I didn't understand some of the buys, prior to that, I'd more or less felt Rafa had bought players for the required positions. However, if we lose out Mascherano, which is looking increasingly likely, then Lucas will turn out to be a shrewed buy and if Babel fulfills his potential (I am still uncertain of him) then we won't need to buy a second striker and we can look to strengthen on the wings.

 

There are no easy solutions to this problem, we are in competition with businesses that can spend hundreds of millions on their squads, many people don't realise the enormity of this spend, it's as if such numbers become abstract, oblique figures but they are huge amounts of money. Rafa has been identifying quality players ever since he has been here but he's not always been able to acquire those players, many of them end up going elsewhere through a seeming combination of a lack of funds and a slowness to move in the market. Our first player to cost anything close to £20 million happened this summer and I think that is telling. Rafa has done extremely well in the transfer market but there's always room for improvement from both himself and the board.

 

We've had this out before Dave. The difference is that I'm now of the opinion that Rafa knew he was gambling on many of these players at the time. He was prepared to do so in order to accomodate his policy of chopping and changing the team. The bizarre thing is that every single season he eventually ends up playing a more settled side largely composed of the best players.

 

After Istanbul he should have kept the likes of Vladi, Djimi, Igor and Baros until genuine top class replacements were signed. That is the way to dramatically imrpove a team - sign dramatically better players. If you can only afford one or two per season, so be it. What he had had just won him the European Cup after all.

[Paul]

I understand what you're saying, although there's also an argument that due to having a limited squad and concentrating more and more on the CL that season that he somehow threw away fourth place in the league. And we really did throw it away, it was ours for the taking but we kept on slipping up.

 

If we played one game a week for the whole season I think we'd have less of the squad players and more of the big players, but we don't, we play twice a week for vast chunks of the season.

 

Some of those he let go were improved upon one way or another. Smicer was great on his day, but rarely fit - I doubt that we'd have got much out of him the next season. Igor only got games in the end because we'd had some injuries didn't he? Traore, as much as you love him, was a liability far too often due to his concentration problems.

 

As for Baros - he left more likely due to his attitude than his ability. It's another reason some players have left, because they don't like being rotated, don't like being played out of position, and don't keep their mouths shut about it. Cisse and Bellamy were two others.

 

Some of the replacements were free too - and although you've got to take wages into it, if he'd let others stay they'd want to be paid too.

 

I'm not saying those players were world beaters; just that what replaced them wasn't much better. I really don't see how many of his signings can be defended. He's too smart not to know what he was getting by shopping in the bargain basement (especially as far as attacking players are concerened) and his recent comments about needing big cash for big talents bears that out. He's had big cash; he just spread it too thinly.

 

The only reason I think he should be trusted with big money from this point on is that when he has identified players of genuine top quality talent he's nearly always been right (another reason why I'm convinced he knew he was buying a lot of the dross).

[MLB]

I think our biggest mistake was not continuing to use whatever scout/s it was that recommended the likes of Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann and so one when Houllier first came.

 

Does Rafa use scouts at all?

[Dirk]

I think our biggest mistake was not continuing to use whatever scout/s it was that recommended the likes of Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann and so one when Houllier first came.

 

Does Rafa use scouts at all?

 

Yes. He also expanded our scouting network to include South America when he first came over, he mentioned in an Echo article today how he's been having Guthrie monitored whilst he's at Bolton. Apparently, the story goes that when Rafa took over, he asked for the scouting reports of a number of the players and was told there wasn't any, at which he was astounded. Rafa's drive to catch as much young talent as possible is supported by his scouting network.

[MLB]

Yes. He also expanded our scouting network to include South America when he first came over, he mentioned in an Echo article today how he's been having Guthrie monitored whilst he's at Bolton. Apparently, the story goes that when Rafa took over, he asked for the scouting reports of a number of the players and was told there wasn't any, at which he was astounded. Rafa's drive to catch as much young talent as possible is supported by his scouting network.

 

 

I can see how it's affected the youth team set up, and we definitely appear to have people working in South America, but it doesn't seem like we're finding the players we should be finding in Europe these days. They all seem to end up at other clubs. (Except the ones from Spain, of course, which is a market Rafa knows himself anyway.)

[Dirk]

I can see how it's affected the youth team set up, and we definitely appear to have people working in South America, but it doesn't seem like we're finding the players we should be finding in Europe these days. They all seem to end up at other clubs. (Except the ones from Spain, of course, which is a market Rafa knows himself anyway.)

 

A few of them we've been interested in and missed out on such as Simao, Malouda, Walcott. We were heavily linked with Gabriel Malito, he ended up at Barcelona, we were seriously linked with Daniel Alves, we didn't have the money, though and I doubt we will ever get him now, as he's being linked with Barcelona and Real all the time. I'm sure there's others too. It seems he has identified players and lost out because of a lack of funds and/or slow movement on the part of the board, hence his recent frustrations. We end up with second choices.

[ratcatcher]

You'd think after more than 3 sodding years, people would examine Benitez's record on its own merits rather than have to compare it to Houllier's.

 

If Houllier was serving up some of the shyte Benitez is getting away with (dropping you main striker against birmingham and portsmouth, one up front against fcukin wigan at home) he'd have been crucified.

[Stu Monty]

You'd think after more than 3 sodding years, people would examine Benitez's record on its own merits rather than have to compare it to Houllier's.

 

If Houllier was serving up some of the shyte Benitez is getting away with (dropping you main striker against birmingham and portsmouth, one up front against fcukin wigan at home) he'd have been crucified.

 

...just like Benitez is.

[ratcatcher]

...just like Benitez is.

 

Is he? I think a lot more people are less critical of him at the moment.

 

Point is, I dont really see what is being gained comparing who spent how much on whom over what period. They've both made some good and bad signings.

 

Personally, I'd rather benitez addressed the issue of his tactics and formations. I think this season may be a wake up call for him.

[bobhorse]

Apart from Torres I dont think there's much difference TBH.

 

Benitez has bought a few more duds than you alude to while Houllier bought some good players too.

 

Ok then put it another way now

 

Rafa is sacked and a new man comes in.

 

Can you name Rafa's Diuof Diao Cheyrou etc who the new man would have to move on for big loses.

 

No I thought not Rafa pisses all over Ged when it comes to Transfers and the main reason for that IMHO is Rafa gets rid if he makes a mistake Ged never admitted that with any of his and stacked them up in the background sucking the club dry

[Gav]

...just like Benitez is.

 

stu ,thats absolout rubbish,unless i've somehow missed 10,000 el loonie/el madman/ topics

[Anny Road]

Surely the most important part of any analysis of a manager's transfer record is how good the players were?

 

Or how many trophies are in the cabinet.

[JohanH]

Problem today is if you want genuine and proven quality it costs 20 million plus, and the number of clubs willing to spend that kind of money is growing.

 

Seems to me Liverpool has gone a sensible way for a long term future (and not just one depending on the whims of a single money rich sugardaddy)-

1) built a squad that qualifies for CL every year to secure the money coming in.

2) brought in a bunch of kids to hope that 2-3 of them will make it.

 

If Torres could now be the start of step 3- bring in a player of genuine and proven quality regularly we can bridge the gap on the top 3. Our next big buy has got to be a winger- either side will do.

 

If the money is there for that then Benitez could be the right man and we can challenge and maybe win the prem in the next 2-3 years. If the money is not there then no manager can win us the league.

[Stu Monty]

stu ,thats absolout rubbish,unless i've somehow missed 10,000 el loonie/el madman/ topics

 

Gav, he's getting fucking slaughtered left right and centre for absolutely everything he has ever done or ever will do. All that whilst being 12 points adrift with a game in hand and your key defender to come back. He could well close the gap before the end of the season and get a bit closer but the Liverpool fan of 2008 is drunk on panic. It might not be perfect but it's hardly crumbling around him.

[Brownie]

Gav, he's getting fucking slaughtered left right and centre for absolutely everything he has ever done or ever will do. All that whilst being 12 points adrift with a game in hand and your key defender to come back. He could well close the gap before the end of the season and get a bit closer but the Liverpool fan of 2008 is drunk on panic. It might not be perfect but it's hardly crumbling around him.

 

I don't think he's getting 'slaughtered' at all. People are just questioning some of the decision's he's made and debating whether the job he has done is good enough.

 

I know there's always the odd dickhead who calls for his head on a stick, but I think the majority of people are just pointing out issues that they're unhappy about and discussing what may happen.

 

I'd love nothing more than for Rafa to get us up there challenging but the evidence SO FAR, suggests to me that he won't. I suppose it comes down to what you think about the whole situation. I know a lot of people such as yourself and Dirk believe that Rafa has done a very good job and hasn't had the finances to do much more, whereas a lot of people like myself believe that he's built a fantastic squad but is unable to use the players in the right way.

 

I've seen a few of the former saying that we're '3-5 players away from being unstoppable' yet forgetting the fact that if those players were to be brought in, they would probably struggle to make an impact due to being in and out of the team and unable to strike up effective relationships with their team-mates.

 

At this moment in time, i'm of the thinking that Rafa has done a good job in terms of building a squad and strengthening the reserves and youth team, but he's yet to prove that he can use the players in the most effective way for a challenge in the league.

 

One thing I take issue with, is the point you've made about Liverpool fans being 'drunk on panic'. I think that's a ridiculous suggestion. It's not like Rafa hasn't been here long and has only just started - in five months time he'll have had four full seasons to show some progress in the league. If a new manager came in, he wouldn't be expected to just deliver straight away - he'd be given the same amount of time to do his work.

[Stu Monty]

I don't think he's getting 'slaughtered' at all. People are just questioning some of the decision's he's made and debating whether the job he has done is good enough.

 

I know there's always the odd dickhead who calls for his head on a stick, but I think the majority of people are just pointing out issues that they're unhappy about and discussing what may happen.

 

I'd love nothing more than for Rafa to get us up there challenging but the evidence SO FAR, suggests to me that he won't. I suppose it comes down to what you think about the whole situation. I know a lot of people such as yourself and Dirk believe that Rafa has done a very good job and hasn't had the finances to do much more, whereas a lot of people like myself believe that he's built a fantastic squad but is unable to use the players in the right way.

 

I've seen a few of the former saying that we're '3-5 players away from being unstoppable' yet forgetting the fact that if those players were to be brought in, they would probably struggle to make an impact due to being in and out of the team and unable to strike up effective relationships with their team-mates.

 

At this moment in time, i'm of the thinking that Rafa has done a good job in terms of building a squad and strengthening the reserves and youth team, but he's yet to prove that he can use the players in the most effective way for a challenge in the league.

 

One thing I take issue with, is the point you've made about Liverpool fans being 'drunk on panic'. I think that's a ridiculous suggestion. It's not like Rafa hasn't been here long and has only just started - in five months time he'll have had four full seasons to show some progress in the league. If a new manager came in, he wouldn't be expected to just deliver straight away - he'd be given the same amount of time to do his work.

 

I can't argue very strongly with the idea that Rafa hasn't got the best out of the players he has, and never really have done, it's a valid criticism and people are entitled to voice it. Ian, the fans are drunk on panic, mention that Utd are closing in on number eighteen and watch as they shout and bawl and demand that something is done...anything. It's a massive weight around the neck of anyone who comes in here. The thing is, people think that our normal level should be a league challenge, but it just isn't anymore, it's finishing fourth. The three main opponents all have a much stronger case for putting together a title challenge than we do. Whether it be having a decade of time and investment to get your club how you want it or spending £300m on players over two seasons they have the higher expectation. The sooner that people realise that, for the time being at least, fourth is performing to expectation and anything above that is over-performance then the sooner there will stop being this conflict between expectation and reality.