Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bruce Spanner]

I like the argument that the billionaire class that drive Brexit are intent on improving working conditions, rights and earnings for the little man, therefore reducing their share in the inequality shitfest.

 

It holds up under all scrutiny. 
 

God bless the billionaires who funded Brexit, good bless them all.

 

Ive never known such demonstrable altruism.

[Gnasher]

8 hours ago, Mudface said:

Bwahahaha. It's more likely to get turbo charged into new levels of fuckery

Yeah you're right but that's the fault of our own governments mismanagement it shouldn't be an endorsement of the EU.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

You can’t have it both ways; either businesses go bust because they can’t pay higher wages or the Government will step in to impose shitty conditions.
 

I think the point is the semi slave based Amazon, sports direct, fruit picking etc economy is over in the UK becuase the supply of cheap labour has come to an end. 

Both of those things can happen, y'see, because there is more than one company in the UK.  Some will go bust. Others will survive to impose shitty conditions. 

 

The "semi slave" economy is not over, because the supply of cheap labour will be restored after Covid - it's just that it will be British people being forced to take those shitty jobs or (for example) lose all their benefits. 

[Gnasher]

31 minutes ago, M_B said:

Everyone is pleased workers who were exploited and paid a pittance are now getting the remuneration they deserve.

 

The concern 'on here' was the effect of labour shortage and rising wages on the competitiveness of small and medium sized businesses (not supermarkets) in a market that will become swamped with cheaper foreign imports, and the subsequent effect that might have on unemployment. You evidently mistook this concern with not wanting poorly paid workers to be paid a decent wage. Nobody begrudges another human being the right to work for a living wage and to benefit from increased demand for their services.

 

Hope that clears things up.

Not really.

 

I agree with large parts of what you say (people on here don't begrudge other people a decent wage) and I understand your concerns regarding medium sized business but a lot of these medium sized businesses used the abundant flow of EU labour to change working practices in this country for the worse whilst artificially suppressing the true wage for labour rate.I put a link by  journalist Sarah O'connor on the issue further up the thread.

[Gnasher]

Good little article imo this..

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/fall-in-workers-rise-in-wages-new-economic-era-pandemic-work

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

23 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Your argument rests on two difficult assumptions; firstly the fundamentally racist view that the semi slave gig economy was ok as long as it was Eastern European labour being exploited but now it’s the Brits youre outraged

Wrong

[AngryOfTuebrook]

24 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

secondly that Brits on benefits were actually capable of taking these shitty jobs all along but chose not to. If you step back and look at the bigger picture of what you are assuming, your argument reads like a more extreme Daily mail leader

Wrong again

[M_B]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Not really.

 

I agree with large parts of what you say (people on here don't begrudge other people a decent wage) and I understand your concerns regarding medium sized business but a lot of these medium sized businesses used the abundant flow of EU labour to change working practices in this country for the worse whilst artificially suppressing the true wage for labour rate.I put a link by  journalist Sarah O'connor on the issue further up the thread.

You can see though that there is an argument that our government is to blame for allowing workers, wherever they have come from, to be exploited and manipulated. You agree that it is our government at fault for allowing anyone to be paid less than the living wage?

 

But fundamentally you are correct in that freedom of movement ensures a supply of labour at the cheapest cost that supply and demand can provide. In general, some people think that's a good thing (governments, economists, and employers) and some people don't (actual working people and communities impacted by a change in culture).

 

Now our country faces a supply shortage caused by Brexit and labour immobility caused by Covid. The effect of that is increased wages (great) and a decline in business competitiveness (not great). The problem facing us right now however is there aren't enough people to fill every available job. So the question to you Gnasher is how would you solve that problem?

[Gnasher]

27 minutes ago, M_B said:

You can see though that there is an argument that our government is to blame for allowing workers, wherever they have come from, to be exploited and manipulated. You agree that it is our government at fault for allowing anyone to be paid less than the living wage?

 

But fundamentally you are correct in that freedom of movement ensures a supply of labour at the cheapest cost that supply and demand can provide. In general, some people think that's a good thing (governments, economists, and employers) and some people don't (actual working people and communities impacted by a change in culture).

 

Now our country faces a supply shortage caused by Brexit and labour immobility caused by Covid. The effect of that is increased wages (great) and a decline in business competitiveness (not great). The problem facing us right now however is there aren't enough people to fill every available job. So the question to you Gnasher is how would you solve that problem?

Agree with pretty much all that. I'm not suggesting that all our problems have disappeared into Eastern Europe, just that the flow did affect wages. I realise the upturn is probably temporarily and the shitstorm is yet to happen.

 

The answer to you question is training and investment in our youth and quick. The government should have been more prepared for the obvious shortage of labour and the disruption that follows. As you say wage rises are unsustainable in the long term so a mass training program with increased focus on employees benefits looks the logical answer.

 

 

Edit, we could learn from. Europe when looking at worker benefits, also enticing workers with shares is another option to attract quality staff.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Gnasher

[M_B]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

The answer to you question is training and investment in our youth and quick. The government should have been more prepared for the obvious shortage of labour and the disruption that follows. As you say wage rises are unsustainable in the long term so a mass training program with increased focus on employees benefits looks the logical answer.

Seems a good step forward, but you are assuming there will always be a person for a job. Inevitably there will be gaps. What about short term labour mobility to fill those gaps? Would you agree to a visa scheme to address that?

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, M_B said:

Seems a good step forward, but you are assuming there will always be a person for a job. Inevitably there will be gaps. What about short term labour mobility to fill those gaps? Would you agree to a visa scheme to address that?

Ohh, now you're asking, not sure tbh. Would employers and the government simply use a visa scheme as a never ending solution whilst neglecting training programs? Not sure.

[A Red]

I'm indecisive Dave on Brexit

 

 

 

 

Was talking to my brother in law who lives in California, they have the same building material shortages as we do, demand has outstripped supply. He reckons due to covid.

[Bjornebye]

13 minutes ago, A Red said:

I'm indecisive Dave on Brexit

 

 

 

 

Was talking to my brother in law who lives in California, they have the same building material shortages as we do, demand has outstripped supply. He reckons due to covid.

Shipping problems all over the world. Lack of containers from China or some shit so I've heard. 

[Gnasher]

Lots of countries struggling for workers and materials since the pandemic, Canada being just one of them.  A lot of people now doing a reevaluation of their work/life balance perhaps? Maybe time to consider a four day week, putting workers on the board of firms, national living wage, better childcare facilities and more flexibility in the workplace?. This government needs to be progressive and embrace change, it won't but it needs to. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

21 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Oh well that’s me told by your pithy 5 letter rebuttal. 
Seriously though you are implicitly assuming that unemployed brits are economically inactive by choice and will post Brexit be forced into shitty jobs. Are you posting from the golf club lounge ? 

You got the short response because I was busy.

 

The longer response is - no, nothing I have ever said or written can be reasonably interpreted to mean that horse shite you're spouting.

[Gnasher]

That's Christmas fucked....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/11/uk-food-worker-shortages-push-prices-up-and-risk-christmas-turkey-supplies

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Not enough people to strangle the turkeys? Maybe they did know what they were voting for after all?

[Moo]

6 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

You clearly make the assumption that brits on benefits are capable of doing the shitty jobs  currently being done by Eastern Europeans but choose not to hence the need to be forced. You may not like the implication but that’s clearly what you said. 

I didn't read it like that and suspect that anyone who does has themselves judged the 'brits on benefits' in such a manner.

One alternative reading would be that all of those jobs were filled so there was no vacancies into which 'brits on benefits' could be forced, so there was no need for the government to intervene in order to maintain the status quo. If at all possible I have no doubt that the government would intervene in order to force jobseekers to take wholly unsuitable, underpaid vacancies.

[Gnasher]

39 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Not enough people to strangle the turkeys? Maybe they did know what they were voting for after all?

I think they electrocute the turkeys head now, not sure though. What I am sure of is it's yet another article that cites Brexit as a reason for wage rises in previously low paid jobs. We can all live with the estimated five percent food increases. 

[Moo]

10 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

I think it’s a struggle to read it any other way. The arguement that @gnasher and myself are making is that limitations on free movement will strengthen the bargaining rights of uk Labour and hopefully bring an end to the semi slave gig economy enjoyed by Amazon etc. To counter that by saying there is an alternative supply of uk Labour that will be ‘forced’ to do these jobs instead and hence maintaining the status quo of employer/Labour power clearly assumes that these people are economically inactive by choice. 

No it doesn't assume that, it depends on your perspective, and how black and white you see things.  You take the suggestion as a slight on jobseekers who actually may have a multitude of reasons for being unable to take those jobs, I take it as a slight on government who I believe would try to force them into those jobs irrespective of suitability.

[Bruce Spanner]

14 minutes ago, Moo said:

No it doesn't assume that, it depends on your perspective, and how black and white you see things.  You take the suggestion as a slight on jobseekers who actually may have a multitude of reasons for being unable to take those jobs, I take it as a slight on government who I believe would try to force them into those jobs irrespective of suitability.

 

The main one being it's seasonal work which requires relocation.

 

So, are we asking for people to take transient work away from home where they may need to pay accomodation for themselves and their families and then return to unemoloyment and homelessness, or are you saying that they should relocate and recieve year round wages for this work at great expense to the companies involved?

 

Trite hackneyed shite from the resident headtheballs as per.

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

The main one being it's seasonal work which requires relocation.

 

So, are we asking for people to take transient work away from home where they may need to pay accomodation for themselves and their families and then return to unemoloyment and homelessness, or are you saying that they should relocate and recieve year round wages for this work at great expense to the companies involved?

 

Hackneyed shite from the resident headtheballs as per.

'Headtheballs' oh fuck off. What an utter load of guff.

 

These sites have accommodation. These jobs are normally filled by youngsters, students out of term or unemployed who need a few months money before finding something else. Anyway at least they're now going to get a few quid more for their labour which might not be a lot to someone who drives a Bentley but its a game changer to people like them. You begrudge them a pay rise?

[Moo]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

These sites have accommodation. These jobs are normally filled by youngsters, students out of term...

Eastern european youngsters and students? 

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, Moo said:

Eastern european youngsters and students? 

 

No, it's slaves and the gig economy when it suits the argument and seasonal work done by students, like I did picking berries and grapes in France to fund touring Europe years back, when the argument is shown up for the folly it actually is.

 

There are bigger endemic problems than this red herring.

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, Moo said:

Eastern european youngsters and students? 

Used to be I believe. Whoever works on these farm now will undoubtedly receive a better rate of pay than before Brexit, so although Brexit will bring minus points that's obviously a plus.