Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It fucking wouldn't, free movement is nothing more than cheap labour, pure and simple exploitation. The O'connor tweet from the Ft further up the thread explains some of its dirty workings far better than I could. Weve had years upon years of overseas workers being exploited, whilst driving down the true value of their wages. What we are witnessing now is an adjustment of wages/work to their true value.

Those links you used to post show that free movement had little, if any, effect on wages and jobs: what negative impacts there were (small impacts, but ones which fell disproportionately on lower-paid jobs) did not come from free movement in a vacuum: they came from free movement in the context of UK policies and regulations which encourage exploitation. 

 

It's wildly optimistic and naive (not to mention unsupported by evidence) to think that current Covid-driven labour shortages represent a long-term adjustment. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Seems big business agrees with you though Angry, 

 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/28/combat-staff-shortages-by-relaxing-brexit-immigration-rules-says-cbi?__twitter_impression=true

 

They don’t. 

 

If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that I want Covid restrictions and furloughs to continue until it's safe: and I want workers and their unions to have more rights.

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Those links you used to post show that free movement had little, if any, effect on wages and jobs: what negative impacts there were (small impacts, but ones which fell disproportionately on lower-paid jobs) did not come from free movement in a vacuum: they came from free movement in the context of UK policies and regulations which encourage exploitation. 

 

It's wildly optimistic and naive (not to mention unsupported by evidence) to think that current Covid-driven labour shortages represent a long-term adjustment. 

Not true, the ending of free movement has had a massive effect on wages in the UK, we are witnessing the effect now and its as expected good for traditional working class occupations.

 

Are you honestly saying the wage increases given these past few months to fruit pickers, hospitality workers, haulage etc would have been given if we were still in the EU? Really? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You've just read a report showing free movement changing working practices for the worse and you're still promoting the shit.. 

No. I read a report into UK bosses in some sectors using lax regulations and piss-poor enforcement to exploit migrant workers. 

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No. I read a report into UK bosses in some sectors using lax regulations and piss-poor enforcement to exploit migrant workers. 

Which changed working practices for all in the industry for the worse throughout the UK. Well thanks but no thanks for that one.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Not true, the ending of free movement has had a massive effect on wages in the UK, we are witnessing the effect now and its as expected good for traditional working class occupations.

 

Are you honestly saying the wage increases given these past few months to fruit pickers, hospitality workers, haulage etc would have been given if we were still in the EU? Really? 

All the links you're posting highlight Covid as the main reason for the labour shortage.  If we were in the EU, those shortages would, more or less, still exist. 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

All the links you're posting highlight Covid as the main reason for the labour shortage.  If we were in the EU, those shortages would, more or less, still exist. 

You're a man in denial.

[Strontium]

17 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

People buy £3 t shirts in Primark and don’t consider where it comes from. 

 

They come from people for whom making t-shirts for Primark is a superior alternative to dying.

[Gnasher]

7 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

All the links you're posting highlight Covid as the main reason for the labour shortage.  If we were in the EU, those shortages would, more or less, still exist. 

I can give you loads of links like below Angry and you know I can. As I said you're in denial...

 

https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2021/06/post-brexit-woes-to-intensify-hospitality-staff-shortage/

 

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

All the links you're posting highlight Covid as the main reason for the labour shortage.  If we were in the EU, those shortages would, more or less, still exist. 

Hmm, have another one, from an hour ago...

 

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-and-covid-spark-worst-staff-shortages-since-1997-280457/

 

[Gnasher]

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

They come from people for whom making t-shirts for Primark is a superior alternative to dying.

Unfortunately you're probably not far wrong. The bit which is false regarding Leicester is a lot of them clothes are sold through Boo hoo and their clothes are not cheap.

[Gnasher]

15 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

All the links you're posting highlight Covid as the main reason for the labour shortage.  If we were in the EU, those shortages would, more or less, still exist. 

I've close links to a building firm which employs approx 300 people Angry, they've upped rates by 10-20 % this year to keep their workers, they foresaw Brexit problems and undertook more apprenticeships a few years ago. Covid is undoubtedly an issue but let's not pretend the withdrawal of EU Labour has not forced employers hands because its plainly not true. I know employment agencies who say the same. 

[Gnasher]

Anyway who the fuvk wants a low skilled low wage economy with loads of workers anyway?

 

It's like these poor fuckers who toil on fruit farms and drive up and down our motorways are being begrudged a pay rise.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

23 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

They come from people for whom making t-shirts for Primark is a superior alternative to dying.

Two words - Rana Plaza.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

28 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You're a man in denial.

 

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The question is, what happens next?  Will the Tories and the bosses

(a)  say "ah, well, it was nice while it lasted, but the workers have the upper hand now, so we'll have to make sure they have decent pay and conditions"; or

(b)  find new means of exploitation  (e.g. by changing the laws, so they are even more heavily weighted against the workers) to tip the balance of power back in their favour.

 

Obviously (a) would be lovely, but somehow I don't see it.

You're a man who believes option (a) is happening.  I deny that. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

27 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I can give you loads of links like below Angry and you know I can. As I said you're in denial...

 

https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2021/06/post-brexit-woes-to-intensify-hospitality-staff-shortage/

 

It's like you're blind even to the word "Covid".

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It's like you're blind even to the word "Covid".

Me blind? I've always acknowledged the affects of Covid on the workplace, you're the man doing the comical Ali impression regarding brexit/job shortage/wage rises..  its become  plainly fuvking obvious..

 

The debate in most circles has actually moved on now, economists and political analysts who previously denied Brexit would have an impact are holding their arms up and are now  talking about the solutions to the Labour shortage.

[Gnasher]

On 01/07/2021 at 20:29, Jairzinho said:

They're both losing.

Are they? Are they really?  Do you genuinely believe that?  You're probably jesting.

 

Let's not forget the workers who have been in average to low pay occupational  work  have been dealt a dud hand by the powers that be for many a long year. Don't take my word for it, read the migration report.

 

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

 

It can't be possible for many of the above to be losing because they had fuck all to lose in the first place.

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It's like you're blind even to the word "Covid".

You've chosen to be blind to people being exploited Angry, that's the bottom line. It's not Covid is it? It's a system that churns out a continuous supply of mainly young people to maximise profits. 

 

That's what it's about Angry, yet you continue to play that game.

[Gnasher]

Anyone?

 

 

 

Or shall we just admit we got or wrong for the past 20 years and give our hard pressed workers a slap on the back? 

 

Or shall we  go back to.the system as described in the article?  It's a which side are you on boy question now,.

[Rico1304]

 

[Bruce Spanner]

10 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

 

 

That's cool, we just won't give the NHS £350m for one hundred and thirty five weeks, i'm sure it'll cope.

[No2]

@Gnasher if you had a farm with strawberries,  raspberries and blackberries already growing and you had orders for all of it, a sensible person would pay more for staff if they had too,  to get that stock out of the ground and into the customer's arms. It may be 10, 20 or even 50% more but because the investment has gone in in the first place you take the hit to get the revenue in.

 

But the caveat here is that sensible person is now spending his time thinking of ways to use the land differently. He may change it to a product with less manual labour like sweet corn* because the sensible farmer knows paying the same rates next year is a huge loss maker. He may decide to build house's or a wind farm or a caravan park, what he won't do is pay the people more than the strawberries are worth again. This is a once off perfect storm scenario that won't be repeated.

 

* I have no idea if sweet corn is less manual labour intensive.

[Bobby Hundreds]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Anyone?

 

 

 

Or shall we just admit we got or wrong for the past 20 years and give our hard pressed workers a slap on the back? 

 

Or shall we  go back to.the system as described in the article?  It's a which side are you on boy question now,.

I see some shift patterns that exist now and the days worked the hours, weekends split up and I can't think of any valid reason for such dumb awkward shitty work patterns other than actively trying to fuck people up. So many employers treat staff like absolute dogshit, employees arent property of the company. Maybe a party actually called Labour could fight for the interests of those who actually do it.

 

Everything is going fucking backwards.

[Rico1304]

25 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

I see some shift patterns that exist now and the days worked the hours, weekends split up and I can't think of any valid reason for such dumb awkward shitty work patterns other than actively trying to fuck people up. So many employers treat staff like absolute dogshit, employees arent property of the company. Maybe a party actually called Labour could fight for the interests of those who actually do it.

 

Everything is going fucking backwards.

Need to sort Palestine first. They may be next on the list though.