Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

Just now, Bruce Spanner said:

 

No, it's slaves and the gig economy when it suits the argument and seasonal work done by students, like I did picking berries and grapes in France to fund touring Europe years back, when the argument is shown up for the folly it actually is.

 

There are bigger endemic problems than this red herring.

To you maybe because you're not the one struggling.

 

What you don't seem to understand is extreme rates of low pay is a massive fuckinv 'endemic problem" to those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end.

[M_B]

I thought we'd signed an agreement with Australia now anyway - once covid is over, we'll have Australians picking fruit and having barbies.

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, M_B said:

I thought we'd signed an agreement with Australia now anyway - once covid is over, we'll have Australians picking fruit and having barbies.

 

And Indians, lots of Indians, now we signed the Visa waiver in desperation.

[Gnasher]

Another little one for these wage rises have nothing to do with Brexit and ending free movement boys..

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/london-wage-inflation-attributed-to-brexit-factor

[Gnasher]

Another one for the ' the EU is not perfect but the alternative is...." file.

 

 

[Gnasher]

28 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Forests are owned by rich landowners who already get 40% of EU funding. It’s no surprise they designed an environmental policy that favours rich landowners, that’s the point of the EU. How anybody on the left thinks the EU is a good idea is beyond comprehension. 

I think it's more the people who support Brexit that's off-putting, uou have the super rich like Rees Mogg who want to deregulate the banking system and make shit loads of money and you've also got numptys who think the country would be fantastic if we kicked out brown people.

 

You're right though, the EU is a capitalist dream. Labour are in a sticky situation as tge party was formed to increase the pay and raise working conditions for low to middle paid workers and Brexit is doing just that, the debate is over, free movement did suppress the wages of the low paid. In 1989 89% of the Labour conference voted to leave the EU, crazy how its changed.

 

As for  environmental and farming issues the EU has been constantly disastrous.

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/brexit-and-britains-labour-shortage-8033872

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On 11/07/2021 at 16:50, Colonel Kurtz said:

You clearly make the assumption that brits on benefits are capable of doing the shitty jobs  currently being done by Eastern Europeans but choose not to hence the need to be forced. You may not like the implication but that’s clearly what you said. 

You clearly make the assumption that because I'm realistic about what the cunt Tories are likely to do, I'm somehow OK with it.

 

You are wrong.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On 11/07/2021 at 17:15, Gnasher said:

We can all live with the estimated five percent food increases. 

Not all of us.   Not by a long chalk.

 

https://www.bigissue.com/latest/food-poverty-in-the-uk-the-causes-figures-and-solutions/

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On 11/07/2021 at 17:30, Colonel Kurtz said:

I think it’s a struggle to read it any other way. 

Struggle harder. I'm sure you'll get to the correct, logical understanding in the end. I have faith in you.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

53 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

Forests are owned by rich landowners who already get 40% of EU funding. It’s no surprise they designed an environmental policy that favours rich landowners, that’s the point of the EU. How anybody on the left thinks the EU is a good idea is beyond comprehension. 

Beyond your comprehension, clearly.

 

The EU is deeply flawed, but only as much as the governments of its Member States, which it reflects. It is, however, improvable. And as anybody on the left knows, countries - like people  - work better together than when they compete against each other. 

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Beyond your comprehension, clearly.

 

The EU is deeply flawed, but only as much as the governments of its Member States, which it reflects. It is, however, improvable. And as anybody on the left knows, countries - like people  - work better together than when they compete against each other. 

"Work better together" to achieve what? Low pay, massive youth unemployment, rising inequality throughout Europe, awful environmental policies. The togetherness that fucked up the EU vaccination strategy?  Etc. No thanks.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

20 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

the debate is over, free movement did suppress the wages of the low paid. 

The debate is far from over: the labour shortage is obviously caused by a combination of Brexit, Covid and (in some sectors, like construction) an increase in the demand for labour as firms try to catch up with a backlog of work.

 

(This is all there in links you have posted.)

 

The longer-term scale and impact of the labour shortages are yet to be seen, but if you are seriously looking at the Government whose job it is to respond to these shortages and assuming that it's going to be payday every day for workers, then you need your bumps read.

 

The impact of free movement on jobs and wages was always as shown in the links you posted: slightly positive for most of the economy, but slightly negative in the lower-paid sectors.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

"Work better together" to achieve what? Low pay, massive youth unemployment, rising inequality throughout Europe, awful environmental policies. The togetherness that fucked up the EU vaccination strategy?  Etc. No thanks.

Work better together to achieve the longest period of peace, prosperity, democracy and human rights in European history.  You might not rate it, but that stuff counts for something. 

[Gnasher]

 

[Gnasher]

13 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The debate is far from over: the labour shortage is obviously caused by a combination of Brexit, Covid and (in some sectors, like construction) an increase in the demand for labour as firms try to catch up with a backlog of work.

 

(This is all there in links you have posted.)

 

The longer-term scale and impact of the labour shortages are yet to be seen, but if you are seriously looking at the Government whose job it is to respond to these shortages and assuming that it's going to be payday every day for workers, then you need your bumps read.

 

The impact of free movement on jobs and wages was always as shown in the links you posted: slightly positive for most of the economy, but slightly negative in the lower-paid sectors.

Rubbish. Construction, hospitality, haulage, agriculture have all seen wage increases. Unless you don't class fruit pickers as low paid?

[Gnasher]

35 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The debate is far from over: the labour shortage is obviously caused by a combination of Brexit, Covid and (in some sectors, like construction) an increase in the demand for labour as firms try to catch up with a backlog of work.

 

(This is all there in links you have posted.)

 

The longer-term scale and impact of the labour shortages are yet to be seen, but if you are seriously looking at the Government whose job it is to respond to these shortages and assuming that it's going to be payday every day for workers, then you need your bumps read.

 

The impact of free movement on jobs and wages was always as shown in the links you posted: slightly positive for most of the economy, but slightly negative in the lower-paid sectors.

Hospitality, wages up. Are they not deemed low paid workers to you? Ditto lorry drivers, fruit pickers and building site workers. You're being disingenuous with that last paragraph.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-08/u-k-wage-inflation-emerges-with-post-lockdown-staff-shortages

 

 

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The debate is far from over: the labour shortage is obviously caused by a combination of Brexit, Covid and (in some sectors, like construction) an increase in the demand for labour as firms try to catch up with a backlog of work.

 

(This is all there in links you have posted.)

 

The longer-term scale and impact of the labour shortages are yet to be seen, but if you are seriously looking at the Government whose job it is to respond to these shortages and assuming that it's going to be payday every day for workers, then you need your bumps read.

 

The impact of free movement on jobs and wages was always as shown in the links you posted: slightly positive for most of the economy, but slightly negative in the lower-paid sectors.

The debate is well and truly over, have yet another example and your last paragraph I'd preposterous.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/07/there-s-simple-answer-labour-shortages-pay-workers-more

[Gnasher]

8 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The debate is far from over: the labour shortage is obviously caused by a combination of Brexit, Covid and (in some sectors, like construction) an increase in the demand for labour as firms try to catch up with a backlog of work.

Err not quite Angry "new orders and projects have increased month on month for the past 13 months" 

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/cips-pmi-brexit-b944310.html

 

I thought these are the people Labour are supposed to represent, id have thought you'd be a bit more enthusiastic to see an industry which employs 3 million people during well 

8 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

(This is all there in links you have posted.)

 

The longer-term scale and impact of the labour shortages are yet to be seen, but if you are seriously looking at the Government whose job it is to respond to these shortages and assuming that it's going to be payday every day for workers, then you need your bumps read.

 

The impact of free movement on jobs and wages was always as shown in the links you posted: slightly positive for most of the economy, but slightly negative in the lower-paid sectors.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/cips-pmi-brexit-b944310.html

[Gnasher]

8 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Work better together to achieve the longest period of peace, prosperity, democracy and human rights in European history.  You might not rate it, but that stuff counts for something. 

"Work better together"

 

Between country inequality rose 4% throughout Europe during the pandemic. 

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-10-29-poverty-and-inequality-surge-across-europe-wake-covid-19

 

Eu expansion was certainly great news for the top 10%, not so good for the other 90 though,

 

https://www.poverty.ac.uk/report-europe-income-distribution-inequality-international-comparisons/rising-income-inequality

 

[Gnasher]

9 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Work better together to achieve the longest period of peace, prosperity, democracy and human rights in European history.  You might not rate it, but that stuff counts for something. 

 

[Vincent Vega]

9 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

I recently read on here that some pubs in London are charging £7 for a pint, an undoubted consequence of having to offer bar staff £15 per hour due to a shortfall of people applying for this type of work. Good on those bar staff getting those wages, but I’m not sure the average pub goer is feeling like they’re winning here. Even in northern cities like Liverpool and Manchester, you’ll be lucky to find many city centre pubs selling a pint of decent lager (not Fosters or Carling piss water) for less than £5 a pint.

[Gnasher]

12 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

I recently read on here that some pubs in London are charging £7 for a pint, an undoubted consequence of having to offer bar staff £15 per hour due to a shortfall of people applying for this type of work. Good on those bar staff getting those wages, but I’m not sure the average pub goer is feeling like they’re winning here. Even in northern cities like Liverpool and Manchester, you’ll be lucky to find many city centre pubs selling a pint of decent lager (not Fosters or Carling piss water) for less than £5 a pint.

Inflation is unfortunately one of the consequences of higher wages. I'm not sure about London pub prices though, I havnt been there since the pandemic struck.

[Gnasher]

Another example of EU countries working together? 

 

 

 

[No2]

36 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I haven't been there since the pandemic struck.

This is the bit you struggle with, either have the staff. You have to entire industry with staff sitting at home with nothing to do but contemplate the future and huge amounts of them ended up deciding the bar trade/hospitality is now too unstable to be employed in. That's not Brexit related, it's not even a British issue, the shortages are European wide, same goes for construction staff too. The pandemic has meant 2 years worth apprentices never started and naturally 2 years worth of staff will have retired, add in the back log and you can a massive short term shortage.

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, No2 said:

This is the bit you struggle with, either have the staff. You have to entire industry with staff sitting at home with nothing to do but contemplate the future and huge amounts of them ended up deciding the bar trade/hospitality is now too unstable to be employed in. That's not Brexit related, it's not even a British issue, the shortages are European wide, same goes for construction staff too. The pandemic has meant 2 years worth apprentices never started and naturally 2 years worth of staff will have retired, add in the back log and you can a massive short term shortage.

You may have a point about the hospitality industry and furlough/inactivity etc, tge building industry bar for a short period during the first lockdown barely broke stride. 

 

You make an interesting point on employees reassessing their working life during lockdown. It seems the pandemic has brought a change to the work/life balance in a lot of people, and that's in most professions and most countries.