I've helped black families…to guide them in the right direction

[Elmyn Noos]

Can someone point me to a brief summary of the facts in this case? The BBC have barely covered it as far as I can see. On the face of it, some big nasty white guy has gone gunning for some poor black child and shot him in the face for nothing.

 

Now I'm as liberal as the next guy, but that just doesn't appear to make any sense to me. Firstly, what was the black guy doing in the white guy's neighbourhood? Up to no good I'll wager. Secondly, how did the white guy manage to get the black guy's gun off him and shoot him with it? Also, the black guy apparently only had sweets on him when he was found, which beggars the obvious question - what happened to his drugs? Finally, black guys get shot in America every day so why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Is it because it was a white guy who shot him, instead of another black guy, as is the norm? If so, that appears to be racism directed at the white population. How come black people can shoot black people, but as soon as a white guy does it all shit breaks loose?

[Stu Monty]

Without this getting into a slanging match, what evidence do you have to back up your claim?

 

Of course there is still racism around, we're at the tail-end of a period where it was perfectly acceptable to call someone a 'blackie' and for the bloke to solemnly lower his head and accept what was being meted out to him. But 50 years from now there will be a different concept of racism.

Until recently, the concept was borne of nationalism, a lack of legislative help and ignorance. But that has died, you can't legally or morally discriminate anymore. So 50 years from now there should be no racism at all, in theory. But in actuality that won't be the case. Why? Because some black people are perpetuating the cycle and refusing to let the past remain in the past, for one. But also more societal factors are coming to the fore, there will be overcrowding in the cities and the strain this puts on housing and benefits. Racism won't go away, we're tribal, it's innate. But in terms of it being the sort of racism that means that you cannot get a job over a white person in Britain ,I don't subscribe to that, it's almost impossible for you to survive in this day and age and operate like that.

 

In terms of it affecting your social groups, yes, of course it can and does still exist. Older and even middle aged black and white people have very different frames of reference even in this country, you can't just change your spots, I don't expect many of them to be in the same pool team at the local pub.

 

However, the younger lads are different though still affected by history and how it is taught to them, and especially how that knowledge should inform their actions in the here and now. It's one thing to be proud, or even fiercely proud, of your roots and your heritage. It's another thing to shove those roots into people's faces or using it as an excuse for acting like a prick, or masking your deficiencies as a willing and capable student.

 

If you don't think that people that are openly racist when in similar minded circles are going to give other races a fair crack of the whip when it comes to hiring then I think you've lost your mind. The same goes for when people talk about sexual equality, it's nonsense.

[Pureblood]

what do you mean 'oh dear' ?

 

It is a valid point. Same applies for a woman. As red banjo said on the sexual proposition thread about the reaction if a man walked up to a woman unbuttoning his clothes and saying he was horny.... he would have been in the shit but its deemed more acceptable for a female to do it to a man?

 

I have 1 nobhead who regardless of his colour had broke the rules, i acted on it and then he tried to get out of it by using the race card. its happened loads of times and like ive said, had i not had evidence that he had broken the rules, I could have been in the shit for nothing.

 

It's not a valid point, it's one piece of your anecdotal evidence which then spurs you on to the great heights of "it's amazing what they can get away with", a line which in my view reveals your true state of mind.

[Bjornebye]

It's not a valid point, it's one piece of your anecdotal evidence which then spurs you on to the great heights of "it's amazing what they can get away with", a line which in my view reveals your true state of mind.

 

fair enough. You're view is wrong but if thats what you took from it. maybe i should have changed my choice of words but ive made it clear what i actually meant since.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I'm on my phone so can't really reply or post my 'evidence', but I wrote and researched 5000 words on the subject a year ago. I also formed a social enterprise with Leeds City Council dealing with inner city race relations and the like about 3 years ago. My opinion is fairly informed, funneeee.

 

Institutional racism (or ignorance) is incredibly real - the same goes for sexism. Unfortunately, the problem is exacerbated by incidences such as the one Stig outlined above. Moreover, people are dealing with it like fucktards and introducing quotas, which I vehemently disagree with. The labour market in the UK is appalling when it comes to dealing with race, SMEs especially. So you might not subscribe to it, but I know it's harder to get a job as a minority - and this is coming from somebody who works for one of the big four strategy consulting firms, so I'm not using it as an excuse. There are numerous rationalisations, such as human capital (which is bollocks given that statistically, Indians are educated to a higher standard than British Whites within the UK), but sooner of later you realise you can't deny prejudice and Racism. The stats are there and if I wasn't on my phone id link them to you.

 

Your assertion that a black kids opinion on his place in society, society itself and the constructs of racism are wholly (or majorly) based on their grandad telling him how the white man oppressed him is absolute conjecture. You can have an opinion but stop pushing it as fact. As you said, racism is real, and it has way more to do with how Minorities act than the notion that the oldies are teaching them the wrong stuff.

 

It's a pretty tangled issue and your sweeping (and wrong) rationalisation of it holds no ground, to be honest.

[Stu Monty]

fair enough. You're view is wrong but if thats what you took from it. maybe i should have changed my choice of words but ive made it clear what i actually meant since.

 

I'm not trying to say you're into lynching; just that if you talk about people as if they're one big homogenous group then people with tend to think the "they're all the same" view is being offered up.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I don't think Stig was saying that they are all willing, or bound to play the race card / act a cunt. I think he was saying that the race card is something they can inherently leverage upon you (which is true) and that's scary.

 

Institutions feel they need to (mainly due to PR) show a hard stance on racism and 'prove' that they're all for equality, so if you're the accused, you better not fuck up your defence.

 

The recent history of a certain sport says it all really.

[Bjornebye]

I'm not trying to say you're into lynching; just that if you talk about people as if they're one big homogenous group then people with tend to think the "they're all the same" view is being offered up.

 

If you read what I put is said 'what they 'can' ' get away with meaning that an ethnic group can potentially get away with something by using their ethnicity as an excuse. not implying that all black people do this at all.

[Pony Princess]

Can someone point me to a brief summary of the facts in this case? The BBC have barely covered it as far as I can see. On the face of it, some big nasty white guy has gone gunning for some poor black child and shot him in the face for nothing.

 

Now I'm as liberal as the next guy, but that just doesn't appear to make any sense to me. Firstly, what was the black guy doing in the white guy's neighbourhood? Up to no good I'll wager. Secondly, how did the white guy manage to get the black guy's gun off him and shoot him with it? Also, the black guy apparently only had sweets on him when he was found, which beggars the obvious question - what happened to his drugs? Finally, black guys get shot in America every day so why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Is it because it was a white guy who shot him, instead of another black guy, as is the norm? If so, that appears to be racism directed at the white population. How come black people can shoot black people, but as soon as a white guy does it all shit breaks loose?

 

Young negro named Trayvon is on a middle-class gated community which has had burglaries of late. He's high on weed, has spend the last hour on Twitter talking about guns and scoring drugs with his 'homies'. He's looking suspicious.

 

He gets followed by neighbourhood watch -thus enters the hero of our story, The Zimmerman.

 

Zimmerman asks what he is up to and innocent little TrayTray starts pounding Zimmerman's face in, breaking his nose and smashing his head into the pavement. Zimmerman is in fear for his life and shoots the lil' wannabe gangster rat in the heart killing him instantly. Nothing of value is lost.

 

Media picks up on it, TrayTray's mom and dad make him out to be an angel, drugs get found in his locker at school, he's been suspended multiple times for fighting but all this gets ignored by the media and pictures of him aged 12 are used.

 

At court, the prosecution had nothing, all the evidence points to Trayvon being a little thug rat, his family/friends a load of lying cunts and the Zimmerman being a good guy who was acting in self-defense.

 

TL;DR. Trayvon is dead, nothing of value was lost and Zimmerman is a fucking boss.

 

[RedinSweden]

Without this getting into a slanging match, what evidence do you have to back up your claim?

 

Of course there is still racism around, we're at the tail-end of a period where it was perfectly acceptable to call someone a 'blackie' and for the bloke to solemnly lower his head and accept what was being meted out to him. But 50 years from now there will be a different concept of racism.

Until recently, the concept was borne of nationalism, a lack of legislative help and ignorance. But that has died, you can't legally or morally discriminate anymore. So 50 years from now there should be no racism at all, in theory. But in actuality that won't be the case. Why? Because some black people are perpetuating the cycle and refusing to let the past remain in the past, for one. But also more societal factors are coming to the fore, there will be overcrowding in the cities and the strain this puts on housing and benefits. Racism won't go away, we're tribal, it's innate. But in terms of it being the sort of racism that means that you cannot get a job over a white person in Britain ,I don't subscribe to that, it's almost impossible for you to survive in this day and age and operate like that.

 

In terms of it affecting your social groups, yes, of course it can and does still exist. Older and even middle aged black and white people have very different frames of reference even in this country, you can't just change your spots, I don't expect many of them to be in the same pool team at the local pub.

 

However, the younger lads are different though still affected by history and how it is taught to them, and especially how that knowledge should inform their actions in the here and now. It's one thing to be proud, or even fiercely proud, of your roots and your heritage. It's another thing to shove those roots into people's faces or using it as an excuse for acting like a prick, or masking your deficiencies as a willing and capable student.

 

Sorry, but that is bollocks. In no way, shape or form is racism in the past, and while it isn't, people aren't going to pretend it is.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Young negro named Trayvon is on a middle-class gated community which has had burglaries of late. He's high on weed, has spend the last hour on Twitter talking about guns and scoring drugs with his 'homies'. He's looking suspicious, because he's young and he's black and his hats real low.

 

He gets followed by neighbourhood watch -thus enters the hero of our story, The Zimmerman.

 

Zimmerman asks what he is up to and innocent little TrayTray starts pounding Zimmerman's face in, breaking his nose and smashing his head into the pavement. Zimmerman is in fear for his life and shoots the lil' wannabe gangster rat in the heart killing him instantly. Nothing of value is lost.

 

Media picks up on it, TrayTray's mom and dad make him out to be an angel, drugs get found in his locker at school, he's been suspended multiple times for fighting but all this gets ignored by the media and pictures of him aged 12 are used.

 

At court, the prosecution had nothing, all the evidence points to Trayvon being a little thug rat, his family/friends a load of lying cunts and the Zimmerman being a good guy who was acting in self-defense.

 

TL;DR. Trayvon is dead, nothing of value was lost and Zimmerman is a fucking boss.

 

 

Jay Z told me to tell you that you missed that part out Pony.

[Pureblood]

If you read what I put is said 'what they 'can' ' get away with meaning that an ethnic group can potentially get away with something by using their ethnicity as an excuse. not implying that all black people do this at all.

 

You don't imply that all black people do it, but you did go on to say "its happened loads of times". I think it's pretty clear where you're coming from.

[Anubis]

Young negro named Trayvon is on a middle-class gated community which has had burglaries of late. He's high on weed, has spend the last hour on Twitter talking about guns and scoring drugs with his 'homies'. He's looking suspicious.

 

He gets followed by neighbourhood watch -thus enters the hero of our story, The Zimmerman.

 

Zimmerman asks what he is up to and innocent little TrayTray starts pounding Zimmerman's face in, breaking his nose and smashing his head into the pavement. Zimmerman is in fear for his life and shoots the lil' wannabe gangster rat in the heart killing him instantly. Nothing of value is lost.

 

Media picks up on it, TrayTray's mom and dad make him out to be an angel, drugs get found in his locker at school, he's been suspended multiple times for fighting but all this gets ignored by the media and pictures of him aged 12 are used.

 

At court, the prosecution had nothing, all the evidence points to Trayvon being a little thug rat, his family/friends a load of lying cunts and the Zimmerman being a good guy who was acting in self-defense.

 

TL;DR. Trayvon is dead, nothing of value was lost and Zimmerman is a fucking boss.

 

 

Not commenting on the rights or wrongs, but didn't your hero contact the police who specifically told him not to approach the lad and to wait for their arrival, which he ignored?

 

This is more about what happens when you give guns to the type of low rent security guards you generally see sitting by the door in the the local Co Op, and let them believe they're almost police officers. Shit that doesn't need to happen does.

[Bjornebye]

You don't imply that all black people do it, but you did go on to say "its happened loads of times". I think it's pretty clear where you're coming from.

 

It has happened lots of times? It is a fact otherwise the term 'race-card' wouldn't exist.

 

You are assuming I am 'coming with an agenda'

 

I'm not at all just stating a fact.

[Pureblood]

It has happened lots of times? It is a fact otherwise the term 'race-card' wouldn't exist.

 

You are assuming I am 'coming with an agenda'

 

I'm not at all just stating a fact.

 

Are you asking me or telling me? It's a fact, is it? Do you have any evidence to back up these facts other than your own anecdotes?

 

I'm not making any assumptions, but I'm suspicious because it was only the other week that you were asking why the Stephen Lawrence case was still in the news, and asking if it was only in the news because his murderers were white. Let's just say that I find your approach to these issues odd.

[RedinSweden]

It has happened lots of times? It is a fact otherwise the term 'race-card' wouldn't exist.

 

You are assuming I am 'coming with an agenda'

 

I'm not at all just stating a fact.

 

So the existence a derogatory term that supports a certain prejudice means that something is fact? That sounds like pretty feeble proof if you ask me.

[Pony Princess]

Not commenting on the rights or wrongs, but didn't your hero contact the police who specifically told him not to approach the lad and to wait for their arrival, which he ignored?

 

This is more about what happens when you give guns to the type of low rent security guards you generally see sitting by the door in the the local Co Op, and let them believe they're almost police officers. Shit that doesn't need to happen does.

 

A civilian 911 operator recommended he didn't approach him, but that's all it was. Don't think they were gonna send out cops.

[Stu Monty]

A civilian 911 operator recommended he didn't approach him, but that's all it was. Don't think they were gonna send out cops.

 

For "bloke walking about with a cap on" - shame on them.

[setreal]

It has happened lots of times? It is a fact otherwise the term 'race-card' wouldn't exist.

 

 

There are also individuals who want to go way beyond their place. That's why the term "uppity" exists. FACT

[Bjornebye]

Are you asking me or telling me? It's a fact, is it? Do you have any evidence to back up these facts other than your own anecdotes?

 

I'm not making any assumptions, but I'm suspicious because it was only the other week that you were asking why the Stephen Lawrence case was still in the news, and asking if it was only in the news because his murderers were white. Let's just say that I find your approach to these issues odd.

 

My point is that some people will use race as an issue wether it was racial or not.

The stephen lawrence point was me playing devils advocate and seeing what people thought. Someone made the valid point that it is still in the news because the family didn't roll over and let it be swept under the carpet.

 

All i've done here is say that some people will use the race-card to get away with things. I dont think anyone can deny that.

 

its not me being prejudice or nor is it me judging every single person who is from an ethnic background.

 

Stop trying to make out something different so you can sit aboard some fucking high horse.

[piscinin]

A civilian 911 operator recommended he didn't approach him, but that's all it was. Don't think they were gonna send out cops.

 

The cops were on the way. The dispatcher asked him to go to a place where he could meet the cops.

[Pureblood]

My point is that some people will use race as an issue wether it was racial or not.

The stephen lawrence point was me playing devils advocate and seeing what people thought. Someone made the valid point that it is still in the news because the family didn't roll over and let it be swept under the carpet.

 

All i've done here is say that some people will use the race-card to get away with things. I dont think anyone can deny that.

 

its not me being prejudice or nor is it me judging every single person who is from an ethnic background.

 

Stop trying to make out something different so you can sit aboard some fucking high horse.

 

Mine's not a high horse (see what I did there, Shins fans?).

 

You didn't say "some people", you said it happens "loads of times" and that it's "scary". Can you elaborate on why I should be scared about scores of people from ethnic minorities playing the race card, please?

[Bjornebye]

Mine's not a high horse (see what I did there, Shins fans?).

 

You didn't say "some people", you said it happens "loads of times" and that it's "scary". Can you elaborate on why I should be scared about scores of people from ethnic minorities playing the race card, please?

 

You know exactly what I meant you are just coming the cunt for the sake of it.

 

I like you mate but on this we will have to knock it on the head because i'm getting pissed off.

[Stu Monty]

Usually when people are accused of "getting on their high horse" it's that they are just being decent, moral, human beings and challenging things that are a bit off.

[Pureblood]

You know exactly what I meant you are just coming the cunt.

 

I like you mate but on this we will have to knock it on the head because i'm getting pissed off.

 

If challenging your views makes me a cunt I'm all for it.