Gerrard's role

[Glen C]

Gerrard is at his best in the middle of the park IMO. Yes he's good going forward but i'd rather a proper number 10 up front with torres giving gerrard more choices of where to make his penetrative passing rather than only be limited to finding torres. Buy Queresma and villa and watch how the team would run riot and really hurt teams. We've so much deadwood we could afford it if we ditched risse, crouch, alonso, carson, kewell, kuyt and voronin....plus the customary £20m we always get a season and go 4-4-2 and we would see a huge improvement.

[Moschops II]

Gerrard is at his best in the middle of the park IMO. Yes he's good going forward but i'd rather a proper number 10 up front with torres giving gerrard more choices of where to make his penetrative passing rather than only be limited to finding torres. Buy Queresma and villa and watch how the team would run riot and really hurt teams. We've so much deadwood we could afford it if we ditched risse, crouch, alonso, carson, kewell, kuyt and voronin....plus the customary £20m we always get a season and go 4-4-2 and we would see a huge improvement.

 

Um...

 

a) Did you really just say that Alonso is "deadwood"?

 

b) Where's the "customary £20m we always get a season" coming from?

[Glen C]

Um...

 

a) Did you really just say that Alonso is "deadwood"?

 

b) Where's the "customary £20m we always get a season" coming from?

 

We normally do get around £20 and the rest comes from sales.... I've always said that i rated mascherano and gerrard ahead alonso, and if we were to go 4-4-2 they would be my first choice. Like i said it's just my opinion.

[Moschops II]

We normally do get around £20 and the rest comes from sales.... I've always said that i rated mascherano and gerrard ahead alonso, and if we were to go 4-4-2 they would be my first choice. Like i said it's just my opinion.

 

That's more like it.

 

Thought for a minute you were actually suggesting the owners would give us £20 million on top of player sales!

[Red Nick]

He is to Liverpool at the present time as what ZZ was for Real Madrid and you can defo draw comparisons between Ronaldo and Torres as the formation is very similar, however I think Raul & Figo were just a little bit better in the wide positions than Kuyt & Babel.

 

A lot could depend on what happens to Alonso as he was dross again last night, he´s not really hit the level of his first two seasons which is a real shame

[Glen C]

That's more like it.

 

Thought for a minute you were actually suggesting the owners would give us £20 million on top of player sales!

 

haha i meant £20m. Whether it comes from loans or not we normally have that amount and the rest is made up from the sale of players.

[theRedHorse]

Play him on the right.

[Paul]

Every club in the world wants a Gerrard in their team and you want two or three?

 

No (well, yes actually). Players who can have a freer attacking role.

[Stu Monty]

Gerrard is at his best in the middle of the park IMO. Yes he's good going forward but i'd rather a proper number 10 up front with torres giving gerrard more choices of where to make his penetrative passing rather than only be limited to finding torres. Buy Queresma and villa and watch how the team would run riot and really hurt teams. We've so much deadwood we could afford it if we ditched risse, crouch, alonso, carson, kewell, kuyt and voronin....plus the customary £20m we always get a season and go 4-4-2 and we would see a huge improvement.

 

A huger improvement than the one that we saw when we left 4-4-2 to go with the 4-2-3-1?

 

I can't see Benitez spending with a 4-4-2 in mind this summer so suggesting signings to fit that system is missing the reality of things a bit I reckon.

[Cardie]

I think if we're talking about this formation then central midfield is probably a little too defensive, although would Gerrard be as defensive there as Alonso and Mascherano are?

 

That completely disregards the system we use though, the idea isn't to have really attacking players in those positions.

[Paul]

If we were so well off for cash that we actually had the money to go out and buy the undoubted best player around for every position, excluding Gerrard, where would Gerrard play then?

 

I'd like to see him start in Dirk's current slot with the freedom to roam - but only if a top class player assumed the position he's had this season. Not a likely scenario, I Know. However, based on what I've seen this season and during '05-'06, I think he'd be at his best there.

[Kevin D]

Of the 15 games Gerrard and Mascherano played together without Alonso , we failed to win 9 .

 

Considering that 15 of the teams in this league are awful , that tells me that pairing is a no-go. As anyone whos ever seen them play together knows that Gerrard drops too deep and unbalances the side. We've never lost a game where Alonso ,Mascherano and Gerrard have completed the 90 minutes because they're world class players with a good understanding.

 

We're also very unlikely to find a number 10 who scores as many as Stevie and creates as much as he does. He does have 19 goals this season , so on that note we should keep him where he is and look at buiding the quality around him.

[Section_31]

Sticking Gerrard anywhere other than an attacking role would be like putting a battleship in the desert.

[aws]

I'd like to see him start in Dirk's current slot with the freedom to roam - but only if a top class player assumed the position he's had this season. Not a likely scenario, I Know. However, based on what I've seen this season and during '05-'06, I think he'd be at his best there.

 

Agree with that - providing he wouldn't sulk about it.

[zigackly]

This is a fantastic thread to read by the way, and not least for Rashid's measured contribution, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's viewpoint.

 

I like Gerrard in a free role. I think to get the best out of him you set up the rest of the players in a 4-2-2-1 formation and tell Gerrard to do pretty much what he wants to do in the space behind the three attackers. Benitez likes all of his players to contribute in both defence and attack, and Gerrard will naturally do that wherever he plays anyway, but if you give him the freedom to do it wherever he wants on the pitch, he'll track back when it's needed, break forward when it's needed, snap off passes to Torres or out to either flank, and score a great number of goals. It's all about starting him in the position from whence he can do most damage though, and I personally think we've found it.

 

Perhaps when we've tried him there in the past he's had less maturity, and perhaps he's had to get forward too much, because using Crouch as the focus of the attack means you need to have runners past Peter in the middle as well as the flanks, and it restricts Gerrard to a role too high up the pitch for my money, which negates the effect you get from him running from deep, hitting the second balls from the edge of the box, or picking out a pass from the space "between the lines". He works very well with a quick forward with great movement and the ability to create from nothing and this is what we have in Torres.

 

I think his recent form comes from a combination of effects: he has learned maturity playing in the deeper role for much of last season and the first two thirds of this, but that shackled him too much for me, and he is now enjoying the freedom to impose himself on the game in a manner of his choosing.

 

Having Torres, Babel and Kuyt playing ahead of him is giving him options to set up counter attacks or exploit the space they create. It's noticeable recently that defences are placing two or three men on Babel as his pace and his ability to beat a man when cutting inside scares them, and this is also creating space for Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt. Torres too is enough of a handful to occupy two centre backs, and opposition teams, in the main part, simply don't have enough defenders to cope with all of our options in attack.

 

I do agree with Rashid that we sometimes have Torres too isolated up front, and this is mainly an effect of the defensive work we have to do against top opposition. However, as we gain more confidence in the system and find out the ways in which it works best I think we'll be able to get more attackers joining Torres in those games as well. This will help to improve his away goals tally.

 

I also think we could benefit from more pace and a greater goal threat from the right flank, and this would also help Babel who often ends up with two or more men on him because it's easier to close Kuyt down. I love Dirk's commitment and workrate, and I think there's a place for him in the squad covering the front four positions, but if we had a first choice who could occupy more than one defender, it would create more space for the others.

 

I think this could really help us to push on next season, and if we can also attack more from the fullback positions it will give us the opportunity to have three or four attackers getting into the box and the area just outside it, which will result in more goals for all four of our forwards.

 

In short I wouldn't change a thing about Gerrard's role. I think we're getting the best from him, and some improvement on the flanks will help us to get even more.

[Guest TK-421]

Good post mate, I agree with most of that as things stand. It would have to be a good player to dislodge Gerrard from his current position, but if one came in it would be interesting to see Gerrard in one of the positions Babel and Kuyt are playing at the moment.

[KopOut]

You see, the reason we are seeing the full reportoire of Gerrard on the right and as a deep lying striker is due to the limitations of the players bought to play there. Pennant and Benayoun are not trusted out on the right so Rafa plays Kuyt there for his work rate.......The same will go for the right wing when we get someone in there. Noone will be bothered if Kuyt is on the bench or in the squad then because we will have evolved............ asking Gerrard to plug the gaps all his career.

 

Benitez has a problem.

 

With luck, it's only a temporary problem. I'm going to come out and just say it: Carragher is in his last two seasons as a regular in the 1st team. It's obvious, that he's hating to play the role, which has been assigned to him by Benitez - that of Right Back. He is not the player he was. He panics. he makes bad mistakes. Benitez puts him at right back, BECAUSE THERE"D BE AN OUTCRY IF HE DROPPED HIM. there is no way Jamie Carragher will ever be a central defender again. Hell, he wont even play for England, cos they make him play right back!

 

And herein lies the reason why Kuyt is in the right midfield position. I appreciate your observation of Gerrard's ability to work hard ( although he WAS tired in the 2nd half last night) but NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY works harder than Dirk Kuyt. Dirk Kuyt should have been man of the match, for scoring the goal, creating opportunities, but mostly, for his tireless running back to support an ailing Jamie Carragher in defence. Arsenal weren't stupid..they consistantly attacked down that right flank, seeing Carragher as the weak link. Fortunately for us, Jamie had an improved game. So it's not Gerrard being asked to plug the gaps now, its KUYT being asked to play totally out of position, and work harder than any other player..which the lad does to his credit. Player of the season, 'nough said.

 

You see how stuck Rafa is? This is why the new system is Torres/Kuyt with Gerrard as attacking mid, and why Kuyt is in the Right Att Mid position, and why Pennant (undoubtedly our best winger, with real dribbling skills, and proving time and time again when he plays, that we score more goals) CANNOT get a game.

 

Personally, I think the system works as long as the problem of Carragher is there. However, I'd rotate Pennant on the Left Wing, with Babbel, and let them fight for the spot.

[Kevin D]

Rashid , what number 10 in the world , Kaka aside , will create more and score more than Gerrard from his current position?

[zigackly]

Benitez has a problem.

 

With luck, it's only a temporary problem. I'm going to come out and just say it: Carragher is in his last two seasons as a regular in the 1st team. It's obvious, that he's hating to play the role, which has been assigned to him by Benitez - that of Right Back. He is not the player he was. He panics. he makes bad mistakes. Benitez puts him at right back, BECAUSE THERE"D BE AN OUTCRY IF HE DROPPED HIM. there is no way Jamie Carragher will ever be a central defender again. Hell, he wont even play for England, cos they make him play right back!

 

And herein lies the reason why Kuyt is in the right midfield position. I appreciate your observation of Gerrard's ability to work hard ( although he WAS tired in the 2nd half last night) but NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY works harder than Dirk Kuyt. Dirk Kuyt should have been man of the match, for scoring the goal, creating opportunities, but mostly, for his tireless running back to support an ailing Jamie Carragher in defence. Arsenal weren't stupid..they consistantly attacked down that right flank, seeing Carragher as the weak link. Fortunately for us, Jamie had an improved game. So it's not Gerrard being asked to plug the gaps now, its KUYT being asked to play totally out of position, and work harder than any other player..which the lad does to his credit. Player of the season, 'nough said.

 

You see how stuck Rafa is? This is why the new system is Torres/Kuyt with Gerrard as attacking mid, and why Kuyt is in the Right Att Mid position, and why Pennant (undoubtedly our best winger, with real dribbling skills, and proving time and time again when he plays, that we score more goals) CANNOT get a game.

 

Personally, I think the system works as long as the problem of Carragher is there. However, I'd rotate Pennant on the Left Wing, with Babbel, and let them fight for the spot.

 

Controversial ...

 

I completely disagree by the way, but I've said my piece in other threads more relevant to your subject matter.

[KopOut]

Controversial ...

 

I completely disagree by the way, but I've said my piece in other threads more relevant to your subject matter.

 

Yeah, apologies for this, I think I may have slotted the post in the wrong thread :(

[Guest TK-421]

If Rafa wanted to drop Carra then he'd be big enough to make the decision.

[zigackly]

If Rafa wanted to drop Carra then he'd be big enough to make the decision.

 

And here is the evidence ...

 

[Guest TK-421]

What a guy.

[GRADY]

you play gerrard in the middle for me every time.

I personally think where gerrard is playing now with torres suits him down to the ground.

 

My concern would be if torres was out injured I think in this formation there would be far too much pressure on Gerrard. But havin a world class striker in torres complements him so well.

 

Imagine havin the formation we have now with someone like fabregas in the alonso position. Would be immense.

[Jose Jones]

This is a fantastic thread to read by the way, and not least for Rashid's measured contribution, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's viewpoint.

 

I like Gerrard in a free role. I think to get the best out of him you set up the rest of the players in a 4-2-2-1 formation and tell Gerrard to do pretty much what he wants to do in the space behind the three attackers. Benitez likes all of his players to contribute in both defence and attack, and Gerrard will naturally do that wherever he plays anyway, but if you give him the freedom to do it wherever he wants on the pitch, he'll track back when it's needed, break forward when it's needed, snap off passes to Torres or out to either flank, and score a great number of goals. It's all about starting him in the position from whence he can do most damage though, and I personally think we've found it.

 

Perhaps when we've tried him there in the past he's had less maturity, and perhaps he's had to get forward too much, because using Crouch as the focus of the attack means you need to have runners past Peter in the middle as well as the flanks, and it restricts Gerrard to a role too high up the pitch for my money, which negates the effect you get from him running from deep, hitting the second balls from the edge of the box, or picking out a pass from the space "between the lines". He works very well with a quick forward with great movement and the ability to create from nothing and this is what we have in Torres.

 

I think his recent form comes from a combination of effects: he has learned maturity playing in the deeper role for much of last season and the first two thirds of this, but that shackled him too much for me, and he is now enjoying the freedom to impose himself on the game in a manner of his choosing.

 

Having Torres, Babel and Kuyt playing ahead of him is giving him options to set up counter attacks or exploit the space they create. It's noticeable recently that defences are placing two or three men on Babel as his pace and his ability to beat a man when cutting inside scares them, and this is also creating space for Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt. Torres too is enough of a handful to occupy two centre backs, and opposition teams, in the main part, simply don't have enough defenders to cope with all of our options in attack.

 

I do agree with Rashid that we sometimes have Torres too isolated up front, and this is mainly an effect of the defensive work we have to do against top opposition. However, as we gain more confidence in the system and find out the ways in which it works best I think we'll be able to get more attackers joining Torres in those games as well. This will help to improve his away goals tally.

 

I also think we could benefit from more pace and a greater goal threat from the right flank, and this would also help Babel who often ends up with two or more men on him because it's easier to close Kuyt down. I love Dirk's commitment and workrate, and I think there's a place for him in the squad covering the front four positions, but if we had a first choice who could occupy more than one defender, it would create more space for the others.

 

I think this could really help us to push on next season, and if we can also attack more from the fullback positions it will give us the opportunity to have three or four attackers getting into the box and the area just outside it, which will result in more goals for all four of our forwards.

 

In short I wouldn't change a thing about Gerrard's role. I think we're getting the best from him, and some improvement on the flanks will help us to get even more.

 

Excellent post, and I agree with most of it. I think Gerrard is best attacking, and attacking mainly through the centre. In his excellent "free role from the right" season, he did do well taking on full backs and getting crosses in, but his main damage was done drifting into the middle and bursting through, and he was given more space to do this by not having the defensive responsibilities of a central midfielder.

 

I agree with Rash's observation that we can have too much of a gap between the midfield and Torres, but I'd like this to be filled better between the wide players. If we have someone who can hold on to the ball better at one of the wide forward positions, this would help. Someone along the lines of a Ronaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho, who can take players on as well as getting into the box and score goals. Fuck knows who that would be though. When this player drifts to the centre, it would then give room for Gerrard to power down the wing.

 

I like Dirk and I think Babel has potential but neither of them are really able to do that at the moment. I also don't think Gerrard is ideally suited to one of the wide forward positions, as that player has more of a responsibility to get bang up front, rather than attacking with the ball from deeper which is Gerrard's strength.

 

So I reckon I'd like us to sign a top notch dribbly goal-scoring winger so that we have:

----------Torres---------

Babel/Kuyt-------New Guy

----------Gerrard--------

----Alonso/Lucas-Masch--

 

I'd also like to get a top notch attacking full back, probably for the left. Sell Riise, keep Aurelio as back up, and with Finnan and Arbeloa steady enough to take care of right back.