The war in Ukraine

[Strontium]

Death toll 2500 in Ukraine...

 

And I thought the locals were joining ISIS...

 

Oh dear Stu, oh dear. Consistency is the key, no flip-flopping to please the crowd or the agenda.

 

 

 

Ukraine should rename itself Palestine, then certain people might start to care about its neighbour trying to aggressively annex bits of it.

[Red Phoenix]

Both sides will see sense, especially when it really starts to hurt economically.

 

Notice how France is still going to supply Russia with the Mistral class warships they (Russia) ordered, despite Francois Hollande quacking on about increasing sanctions.

 

In all this shit, as in so much else, money rules.

 

 

Yeah hopefully, and have noticed that warships deal being brought up regularly, it's just bizarre how they seem to be ramping things up so much from the NATO side. I don't think Putin will go anywhere outside of the Ukraine either, unless he's provoked. Germany have tried to plan a deal with Russia a few times that could work things out, I guess we hope something like that happens, but I'm just wary of just how far the US will push it. If the EU decides they've had enough though along with Russia, then maybe that'll make the US see some sense too.

[Spy Bee]

Both sides will see sense, especially when it really starts to hurt economically.

I'm not sure it's that simple. This seems to be a currency struggle. With Gazprom now accepting the Yuan and the Rubles, then this will potentially weaken the dollar. I won't pretend to be some kind of economic genius, but it doesn't strike me as a situation which will be easily resolved when countries are feeling the impact of sanctions.

[Stu Monty]

Ukraine should rename itself Palestine, then certain people might start to care about its neighbour trying to aggressively annex bits of it.

Feel free to answer the question you keep dodging in the actual Israel thread before you pop up elsewhere being snide on the topic.

 

I'll not hold my breath.

[Stu Monty]

Rico being the noisiest emptiest vessel in forum history on this thread. Shame really.

 

There's actually interesting conversation to be had if people don't want to behave like the stupidest kid in the special class.

[stringvest]

 

Two Russian bombers, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, have been caught flying over British airspace.

The unwelcome guests spent four hours flying over the Isle of Lewis despite being intercepted by two RAF jets.

 

A pair of 111 squadron Tornado F3 fighters took of from RAF Leuchars in Fife to locate the supersonic Tu160 bombers in the Outer Hebrides.

4 hours over the Isle of Lewis?  it looks small on google.

[Arl arse]

http://youtu.be/RAqnodZmvXA

[Coro]

The UN has accused the Ukrainian military in the deaths of civilians

Representatives of the office of the UN high Commissioner for human rights presented to the public a report which accused the Ukrainian military in the deaths of civilians.

In urban areas controlled by armed groups and exposed to intensive shelling of the Ukrainian armed forces, responsible for at least part of human casualties and damage to civilian objects lying on the Ukrainian armed forces, the document reads.

According to them, only from July 16 to August 17 as a result of clashes in the East of Ukraine has lost more than 1.2 thousand people. The total number of victims has reached 2.2 thousand.

In the end, the UN concluded that these facts contradict the statements of Kiev that "the Ukrainian armed forces never attacked areas with high population densities", transfers ITAR-TASS.

Earlier, representatives of the militia said that for four days the Ukrainian army lost more than 750 people. The President assessed the situation in the South-East as extremely difficult.

 

http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/www.novorosinform.org/news/id/7249

 

At the risk of grossly oversimplifying two very different conflicts, read this New York Times summary of a U.N. human rights report on the fighting in Ukraine and tell us it doesn’t sound familiar:

Ukraine’s military had to bear responsibility for “at least some” of the heavy loss of civilian life and for extensive damage to property resulting from the use of heavy weapons, including tanks and artillery, in densely populated areas, the report said. But armed rebels were faulted for positioning their heavy weapons in densely populated areas and for launching attacks from them, putting civilians at risk and violating international law.

Even the death toll, which is conservatively estimated at 2,220, is very close to the loss of life suffered in Israel’s latest war with Hamas.

Of course the conflict in Ukraine bears many dissimilarities to the one in Gaza, but there is at least one way in which they resemble each other: the reckless disregard for civilian life.

 

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/shades_of_gaza_in_ukraine_20140829#.VAFNhkHhpno.twitter

 

Both sides in the Ukraine conflict come under U.N. criticism for civilian deaths. It has become all too commonplace for armies around the world to put the responsibility on innocent bystanders to get out of the way.

 

[Stu Monty]

Pfft. These crackpots cherry picking to make it all look bent.

[Funkasy]

placing weapons among civilians, something stu agrees with. 

 

as regards for russia, one wrong article about the government and your shot on your doorsteps or poisoning by plutonium. What a team to cheer for.

[Coro]

placing weapons among civilians, something stu agrees with. 

 

 

Is this what you've been trying to justify?

[Stu Monty]

placing weapons among civilians, something stu agrees with. 

 

as regards for russia, one wrong article about the government and your shot on your doorsteps or poisoning by plutonium. What a team to cheer for.

 

I'm not cheering for anything. I think that's what you can't understand. Because you seem to have a very childish, partizan view of things.

 

You don't seem to be able to grasp that if people are fighting you in an asymmetrical war from a built up area you still have the choice whether to raze that area or not, either.

 

You also don't seem to be able to absorb the idea that no matter which side you "cheer for" you're backing the tactics you talk of. Would you like me to run you through some of our allies and how they treat dissidents? I don't really talk goodies and baddies - I, generally, talk hypocrisy.

[Red Phoenix]

placing weapons among civilians, something stu agrees with. 

 

as regards for russia, one wrong article about the government and your shot on your doorsteps or poisoning by plutonium. What a team to cheer for.

 

Yeah, apart from you going completely over the top there, if you want to really get down to the stark truth of the matter, you should look into what happened in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Fallujah with depleted uranium. Then look into the effects of a nuclear blast, how many weapons the US and Russia have stockpiled, and how shit both of them are at nuclear disarmament.

 

If there's one area where Putin and Obama both completely fail here, it's when you look at the issue of nuclear disarmament. I'm not trying to fearmonger, I was actually the opposite until yesterday, because I'd avoided looking at the issue for a long time, purely out of fear. This is one area where every nuclear power utterly fails, because getting rid of those weapons should be the main priority above all others.

 

Yes, they've been a "deterrent", fair enough. We should move on at this stage though, it's 2014 and there's no excuse that's good enough. Absolutely no excuse whatsoever.

[VladimirIlyich]

I think that when Russia was the USSR they didnt pose as much of a threat to the multinationals of the West and the Cold War,in its later years,provided an uneasy alliance which allowed a certain amount of stability. But once it was clear that the Western resources were becoming over-exploited and we needed thing like Gas from the East then things changed very quickly.

The Wall fell in 1990 not long before the first Gulf War and since then its seemed that there hasnt been a moments peace since then.

I have no confidence in it ever stopping soon while we are governed by the type of people we are in most countries now. Maybe the problem is that we are not governed by actual politicians but by the people whose mouthpieces they are.

[Section_31]

I think that when Russia was the USSR they didnt pose as much of a threat to the multinationals of the West and the Cold War,in its later years,provided an uneasy alliance which allowed a certain amount of stability. But once it was clear that the Western resources were becoming over-exploited and we needed thing like Gas from the East then things changed very quickly.

The Wall fell in 1990 not long before the first Gulf War and since then its seemed that there hasnt been a moments peace since then.

I have no confidence in it ever stopping soon while we are governed by the type of people we are in most countries now. Maybe the problem is that we are not governed by actual politicians but by the people whose mouthpieces they are.

It all comes down to money. The west is run by money, Russia is run by money, but Putin seems to be largely more concerned with prestige which makes him more of a dangerous animal. I reckon it will come down to how long the ultra wealthy over there are happy to have their pockets pinched before they get fed up with Putin, and what format that may take.

[Red Phoenix]

From The Guardian comment section :

 

So Ukraine government is attacking their own citizens who rebelled against it, killing thousands and the NATO countries support the Ukraine government vowing to protect Ukraine's sovereignty by all means ...I can remember a case with an identical beginning but an entirely different ending - Serbia's province Kosovo rebelled against the central government and started an armed uprising with independence as the final goal. NATO supported the rebels and acted as their airforce, bombing Serbia for 78 days and nights until its military and the police retreated from Kosovo which is now an independent country with a huge US Army base in it - Serbia's sovereignty was never an issue.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/russia-foreign-minister-immediate-ceasefire-ukraine

 

 

I can remember seeing this brought up a few times when Crimea was the main problem. I guess it's ok to do this if NATO back you, but not if NATO don't like it. There's some interesting info here connected to Chechnya : http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/11/22/bfp-exclusive-us-nato-chechen-militia-joint-operations-base/

 

This is from searching for information related to Georgia and finding something in The Economist (again, comment section.) :

 

Western European politicians should be careful in criticising other governments and peoples given their history. As a neutral observer of the events in Georgia ( I happen to be black and African) I can only conclude that Russia given it's tragic history is sensitive to its sovereigty, and justifiably so. I am bemused that western politicians have the temerity to address the Russian government in the tone it does. To non western ears their protestations sound rich. Given Western exploitation and its history world wide and for several centuries of pillage, war, slavery, etc. Perhaps the west would draw more sympathy if they speak with some humility and less arrogance. John Kennedy took umbrage with the U.S.S.R.'s attempt to station nuclear missiles in Cuba in the early 1960's and rightly so, and yet ( although again this will be distinguished ) Russia is expected not to react when so called defensive weapons are stationed in the Ukraine.

 

Frankly, for all the clever distinction, my only conclusion is that the west believes, as it has believed for centuries now, that it has the birth right to direct the rest of the world and dictate what is right and wrong to the rest of us who are non-western. Enough is enough. We have had enough impudence and cheek and deserve to be treated as equals. The era of western imperialism is over.

 

Of course if I were for example educated in the west and had been brainwashed in Oxford, Cambridge or some other western pinnacle of learning I would not be able or capable of thinking that the conclusions I reach are anything other than correct. Hence the unfortunate need to find means of resolving disputes other than by rational debate and arguments. Tragically we have had wars and will continue to have them, again the sad thing is that the emerging crop of western leaders have never experienced hardship, let alone suffering and so will lead the west in this direction.

 

http://www.economist.com/node/12009678/comments

 

 

From wikipedia :

 

Although Georgia has no significant oil or gas reserves, its territory hosts part of the Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan pipeline supplying Europe.^%5B84%5D This has been a key factor in the United States' support for Georgia, allowing the West to reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil and bypass Russia and Iran.^%5B85%5D

 

From the bottom of this section : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Background

 

 

So you have western agendas at work even with Georgia and Chechnya, surprise.

[Red Phoenix]

One more :

 

There's a lot of officially-manufactured anti-American paranoia in the Russian media these days. But the depressing fact is that in the larger picture, Russia is right. In fact, it's obvious, yet like so many obvious things, you'll never hear it admitted in the mainstream American media. Conquest is rewritten as liberation; military expansion as security.

While it's true that Russia's state-controlled television is filled with paranoid anti-American conspiracy theories and ranting, the depressing fact is that much of the parnoia is grounded in fact. The current power-mad American elite saw an opportunity as the Soviet Union teetered, and it seized it. They wanted oil, and hegemony, and the only thing standing in the way of it was Russia -- both the current crippled Russia, and the future possibility of a resurgent Russia. The prize is the oil and gas reserves in the Caspian Sea. In order to control the oil, Russia had to be diverted, particularly after the less-friendly Putin came to power.

This is why normally bloodthirsty, anti-Islamic hawks like Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams and Zbigniew Brzezinski all found time to squirt a few for the Chechen cause. It has served as the perfect crippling diversion while America gained control over the Caspian Sea oil, and at the same time, having Russia bogged down in Chechnya allowed the West to pry away key states, particularly Ukraine, from Russia's orbit, ensuring that it will likely never challenge America's position -- or its dominance of Caspian oil -- in our lifetime.

This is what Stratfor meant when it said that America succeeded where Hitler and Stalin had failed. The only question is, how long will the strategy work, and how will it eventually end up. But that question won't be asked, because for whatever bizarre reason, America still thinks it's not out to conquer Russia and the Caspian. In fact, your average Joe, fed by the mainstream media's facile and wildly misleading accounts, thinks that all that's happening over there in the former Soviet Union is that all the countries around Russia love us because we're just so damn good, and that the Russians, for some reason (jealousy, lack of positive thinking, dead-ender mentality), just won't get with the program.

 

Dividing Russia - Alternet

 

Some of you might also find some interesting stuff if you google "The New Great Game", and "The Grand Chessboard." In fact, by looking at just those two, you might find most of what you need to understand the bigger picture here.

[Lee909]

You cannot compare Kosovo to Crimea one bit. Listen to any soldier that served in the war at what the saw

[Red Phoenix]

You cannot compare Kosovo to Crimea one bit. Listen to any soldier that served in the war at what the saw

 

I'm talking about the east of Ukraine basically. It's fine if NATO back it, if not it's wrong.

 

With Kosovo :

 

Nato strikes on Serbia caused, rather than prevented, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, says Nato's former Secretary-General and former UK Foreign Secretary, Lord Carrington.

 

Ex-Nato chief criticises Kosovo campaign

 

More here :

 

Genocide in Kosovo? - counterpunch

 

A Review of NATO’s War over Kosovo - Chomsky

 

 

The more I read up on NATO the worse it gets.

[VladimirIlyich]

You cannot compare Kosovo to Crimea one bit. Listen to any soldier that served in the war at what the saw

A conflict is conflict and death is death.

The similarities are maybe simply who benefits from these conflicts and why.

[Lee909]

Im talking more of the ethnic cleansing, torture and rape by the secret policr

[Strontium]

Feel free to answer the question you keep dodging in the actual Israel thread before you pop up elsewhere being snide on the topic.

 

I'll not hold my breath.

 

Sorry, I've been away for a few days at a wedding. My girlfriend's sister was marrying an Iranian nuclear engineer.

 

What question is this? The one I've repeatedly answered about targeting civilians?

[Stu Monty]

Sorry, I've been away for a few days at a wedding. My girlfriend's sister was marrying an Iranian nuclear engineer.

 

What question is this? The one I've repeatedly answered about targeting civilians?

 

No, the one you're repeatedly avoided about why you think the morality of killing civilians has changed so dramatically over a couple of generations.  It's on the second to last page of the Israel thread.

[Stu Monty]

A neg but no response from intellectual powerhouse Funkasy.

 

I may be doing him a disservice and he's been the subject of a UK-US extraordinary rendition just after clicking the neg. Sweet irony.

[Funkasy]

Was there any way to reply to your last post ? Your very fast with insults as usual, so when your calling other posters for "kids" the irony is there yes.