The war in Ukraine

[Red Phoenix]

By the way : I don't trust the Russians, but it was clear that things were slightly more peaceful before the US backed coup in the Ukraine started. If the US naturally leave things as they are, Russia, China, and many other countries will become more self-sustained, and US power will eventually fade, so that things are at least balanced around the world.

 

That might be why they're always causing wars.

[Red Phoenix]

Really, explain how? 

 

If by that you mean all of western Europe would be part of the Warsaw Pact then you'd be right. However, you wouldn't have the freedom to have the discussion we're holding right now.

 

They should've disbanded the whole thing gradually as the years passed, then tried being peaceful with Russians instead of being obsessed with winding them up and just pretending to have peace. The same thing with China, they should stop provoking them.

[Croque Monsieur]

By the way : I don't trust the Russians, but it was clear that things were slightly more peaceful before the US backed coup in the Ukraine started. If the US naturally leave things as they are, Russia, China, and many other countries will become more self-sustained, and US power will eventually fade, so that things are at least balanced around the world.

 

That might be why they're always causing wars.

Indeed. And as we all know, Russia and China have never oppressed anyone or caused wars or meddled in the internal affairs of other countries.

 

Paragons of geopolitical virtue.

[Croque Monsieur]

They should've disbanded the whole thing gradually as the years passed, then tried being peaceful with Russians instead of being obsessed with winding them up.

Winding them up? 

 

What kind of argument is this? Please explain and expand your 'interesting' theory.

[Lee909]

You really think the Russians would not have annexed large parts of the Soviet Union without the likes of Poland,Hungary,Romania etc being part of NATO. The Russians push shit in wind up terms as much as anyone else,see the constant invasion of airspace that leads to the scrambling of jets.

 

Tibet,Taiwan, might disagree that China would be nice if the US left them alone

 

 

Russia has violated a key arms control treaty by testing a nuclear cruise missile, the US government says.

Russia tested a ground-launched cruise missile, breaking the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed in 1987 during the Cold War, the US said.

A senior US official did not provide further details on the alleged breach, but described it as "very serious".

The bilateral agreement banned medium-range missiles with ranges between 500 and 5,500 km (300 to 3,400 miles).

 

Russian strategic bombers penetrated US airspace 16 times in the last 10 days, according to US defense officials. The bombers penetrated 16 times into northwestern US air defense identification zones. Meanwhile, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel warned about the heightened possibility of a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

US jets scrambled in response to the Russian bombers several times.

 

Major Beth Smith, spokeswoman for NORAD, commented about the incursions, saying, ” Over the past week, NORAD has visually identified Russian aircraft operating in and around the U.S. air defense identification zones.”

 

Two Russian bombers, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, have been caught flying over British airspace.

The unwelcome guests spent four hours flying over the Isle of Lewis despite being intercepted by two RAF jets.

 

A pair of 111 squadron Tornado F3 fighters took of from RAF Leuchars in Fife to locate the supersonic Tu160 bombers in the Outer Hebrides.

[Lee909]

You want a insight into how China deals with protesters read Fire under the snow.

[Red Phoenix]

Winding them up? 

 

What kind of argument is this? Please explain and expand your 'interesting' theory.

 

 

The sanctions, NATO getting closer and closer to Russia, the events in the Ukraine this year for a start. Are you trying to tell me it's mostly Russia's fault?

 

Indeed. And as we all know, Russia and China have never oppressed anyone or caused wars or meddled in the internal affairs of other countries.

 

Paragons of geopolitical virtue.

 

They're all fucked up, but if they at least tried existing with eachother in a better way we might all survive longer, and the US are without a doubt causing more problems around the world than Russia and China put together. If that's wrong, please explain how.

[Red Phoenix]

You want a insight into how China deals with protesters read Fire under the snow.

 

 

Tibet is my main issue with China if that's what that's about. There's no way I'm going to defend that. What I'm saying is that the US are far worse and continue to cause a lot more problems around the world.

[Croque Monsieur]

Nothing from RP at moment. I expect he's foraging for bullshit* in the outer reaches of the whackosphere.

 

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

 

*Copyright Charlie Brooker

[Croque Monsieur]

The sanctions, NATO getting closer and closer to Russia, the events in the Ukraine this year for a start. Are you trying to tell me it's mostly Russia's fault?

 

 

They're all fucked up, but if they at least tried existing with eachother in a better way we might all survive longer, and the US are without a doubt causing more problems around the world than Russia and China put together. If that's wrong, please explain how.

It's always the US. We'd be living in a virtual paradise, divided up between Russia and China I'm sure, if it wasn't for them.

 

The existence of the US, for all it's faults, is the reason why, for the last seventy years, the people of the West (you included) have enjoyed unparallelled standards of living and stability that have never before been seen in the history of humanity.

 

Now, I realise this has been achieved at the expense of others, but if you look around you, we're not a very pleasant species; as long as we're alright Jack we don't give a fuck about anyone else. I wish it were otherwise, but that's not going to change anytime soon. 

 

Just be grateful you live in the society you do. It doesn't mean we're always right, but neither does it mean we're always the bad guys.

[Red Phoenix]

Nothing from RP at moment. I expect he's foraging for bullshit* in the outer reaches of the whackosphere.

 

 

Nice.

 

And no, you can't excuse what the US has done to so many countries over the decades. I'll be grateful that I live somewhere peaceful, but not for the shit the US gov has done to destroy so many different people's way of life around the world. A lot of it has had nothing to do with keeping peace for us and you should know it.

[Croque Monsieur]

Nice.

 

And no, you can't excuse what the US has done to so many countries over the decades. I'll be grateful that I live somewhere peaceful, but not for the shit the US gov has done to destroy so many different people's way of life around the world. A lot of it has had nothing to do with keeping peace for us and you should know it.

I never suggested it did. I merely said the existence of the US allowed us (i.e. the West) to live lives of relative ease.

 

The US can, and has, behaved in a thoroughly cuntish manner over the years. My main objection is that the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the US for all the world's ills whilst conveniently ignoring the handsome contributions of the other major powers.

[Red Phoenix]

I never suggested it did. I merely said the existence of the US allowed us (i.e. the West) to live lives of relative ease.

 

The US can, and has, behaved in a thoroughly cuntish manner over the years. My main objection is that the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the US for all the world's ills whilst conveniently ignoring the handsome contributions of the other major powers.

 

I haven't blamed the US gov for all of the world's ills, I just think that they're one of the world's biggest problems at the moment in general, and that they have been for some time now. I'm not ignoring what the others are doing either, but it seems clear that no other country is causing the world problems on the scale that the US is. If it was Russia or China doing the same, I'd be regularly going on about them instead.

 

To say it again, yes of course I'm grateful that we currently live in peace. It doesn't mean that I have to stay quiet about all of the bad things that are going on at the same time though, or support those that I completely disagree with.

[Jairzinho]

It's always the US. We'd be living in a virtual paradise, divided up between Russia and China I'm sure, if it wasn't for them.

 

The existence of the US, for all it's faults, is the reason why, for the last seventy years, the people of the West (you included) have enjoyed unparallelled standards of living and stability that have never before been seen in the history of humanity.

 

Now, I realise this has been achieved at the expense of others, but if you look around you, we're not a very pleasant species; as long as we're alright Jack we don't give a fuck about anyone else. I wish it were otherwise, but that's not going to change anytime soon. 

 

Just be grateful you live in the society you do. It doesn't mean we're always right, but neither does it mean we're always the bad guys.

 

Perhaps not everyone has the same compassionless view of the world that you do.

[Croque Monsieur]

I haven't blamed the US gov for all of the world's ills, I just think that they're one of the world's biggest problems at the moment in general, and that they have been for some time now. I'm not ignoring what the others are doing either, but it seems clear that no other country is causing the world problems on the scale that the US is. If it was Russia or China doing the same, I'd be regularly going on about them instead.

 

To say it again, yes of course I'm grateful that we currently live in peace, but it doesn't mean that I have to stay quiet about all of the bad things that are going on at the same time.

'It seems clear' - says who? 

 

If the US didn't exist do you think the likes of Russia and China would be all sweetness and light, spreading harmony across nations?

 

Get real.

[Section_31]

It's always the US. We'd be living in a virtual paradise, divided up between Russia and China I'm sure, if it wasn't for them.

 

The existence of the US, for all it's faults, is the reason why, for the last seventy years, the people of the West (you included) have enjoyed unparallelled standards of living and stability that have never before been seen in the history of humanity.

 

Now, I realise this has been achieved at the expense of others, but if you look around you, we're not a very pleasant species; as long as we're alright Jack we don't give a fuck about anyone else. I wish it were otherwise, but that's not going to change anytime soon.

 

Just be grateful you live in the society you do. It doesn't mean we're always right, but neither does it mean we're always the bad guys.

I have to agree here. The yanks can be cunts, but take them out of the picture and it'd be squeeky bum time for all of us. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, but if the yanks weren't up in everybody's shit all the time I reckon the world would be worse not better. None of its opponents, be they China, Russia, or any Middle Eastern country you'd care to mention, are exactly benign examples of peace and love.

[Red Phoenix]

'It seems clear' - says who? 

 

If the US didn't exist do you think the likes of Russia and China would be all sweetness and light, spreading harmony across nations?

 

Get real.

 

Sorry, maybe I should've said "is" clear. The US created a coup in the Ukraine involving neo-nazis, are you going to deny that? Or is that just what we're supposed to be ok with? If you think it is then maybe you need to get real instead. Let's just point at Putin instead. The red scare, etc. Let's forget those inconvenient nazis, maybe they'll go away if we don't talk about them.

[Croque Monsieur]

Perhaps not everyone has the same compassionless view of the world that you do.

I know. As I've got older I've become a lot more cynical.

 

For all our many achievements in science and the arts, the constant parade of death, cruelty and despair we see played out across the globe does leave one with a sense of hopelessness.

 

I think we'll survive as a species, we're too cunning not to, but there'll be no utopia.

[Jairzinho]

I have to agree here. The yanks can be cunts, but take them out of the picture and it'd be squeeky bum time for all of us. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, but if the yanks weren't up in everybody's shit all the time I reckon the world would be worse not better. None of its opponents, be they China, Russia, or any Middle Eastern country you'd care to mention, are exactly benign examples of peace and love.

 

I'm not sure how anyone could make a judgement one way or the other. As you'd have to judge countries within the parameters of a world where the Yanks are up in everybody's shit all the time.

[Jairzinho]

I know. As I've got older I've become a lot more cynical.

 

For all our many achievements in science and the arts, the constant parade of death, cruelty and despair we see played out across the globe does leave one with a sense of hopelessness.

 

I think we'll survive as a species, we're too cunning not to, but there'll be no utopia.

 

I, genuinely, look forward to giving a fuck less.

[Croque Monsieur]

I, genuinely, look forward to giving a fuck less.

Fair play. Can't argue with that.

[Croque Monsieur]

Sorry, maybe I should've said "is" clear. The US created a coup in the Ukraine involving neo-nazis, are you going to deny that? Or is that just what we're supposed to be ok with? If you think it is then maybe you need to get real instead. Let's just point at Putin instead. The red scare, etc. Let's forget those inconvenient nazis, maybe they'll go away if we don't talk about them.

Russia created mayhem in Georgia and Chechnya (Putin is an old Cold War warrior and wants the Soviet Empire back; from his point of view this is entirely understandable).

 

Ask the Tibetans what they think of China.

 

Nations act in what they believe is in their own interest, regardless of morality.

 

Also I claim Godwin's Law.

[Red Phoenix]

Russia created mayhem in Georgia and Chechnya (Putin is an old Cold War warrior and wants the Soviet Empire back; from his point of view this is entirely understandable).

 

Ask the Tibetans what they think of China.

 

Nations act in what they believe is in their own interest, regardless of morality.

 

Also I claim Godwin's Law.

 

I'm not excusing Russia or China. Tibet especially gets my back up a lot so there's no way I'd do that.

 

As for regardless of morality, I just take an issue when the US seems to have known about these fascists and they backed them anyway. With Godwin's law : I'm actually talking about types of nazis, not just bringing it up as a comparison, and I don't think it applies in that case.

 

Anyway I've got nothing against you, not just trying to argue, etc. I just think this is a huge mistake we're making here, and maybe it could even take a country like China to attempt to get all sides to calm the fuck down and start talking instead of fighting and creating more sanctions, because it's clear that this has the potential to get seriously worse than it already is. There's got to be a decent way out if it, I guess we just hope that both sides see some sense.

 

I mean, these fucking clowns are talking about the whole of Europe being close to war with Russia. What if that happens? How long do we fight normally before they start talking about nukes? It's completely fucking mental and somebody has to step forward, China or whoever else, and start talking some sense into both sides.

[Croque Monsieur]

I'm not excusing Russia or China. Tibet especially gets my back up a lot so there's no way I'd do that.

 

As for regardless of morality, I just take an issue when the US seems to have known about these fascists and they backed them anyway. With Godwin's law : I'm actually talking about types of nazis, not just bringing it up as a comparison, and I don't think it applies in that case.

 

Anyway I've got nothing against you, not just trying to argue, etc. I just think this is a huge mistake we're making here, and maybe it could even take a country like China to attempt to get all sides to calm the fuck down and start talking instead of fighting and creating more sanctions, because it's clear that this has the potential to get seriously worse than it already is. There's got to be a decent way out if it, I guess we just hope that both sides see some sense.

Both sides will see sense, especially when it really starts to hurt economically.

 

Notice how France is still going to supply Russia with the Mistral class warships they (Russia) ordered, despite Francois Hollande quacking on about increasing sanctions.

 

In all this shit, as in so much else, money rules.

 

If Putin sets his sights on the Baltic states, then we could be in a very 'interesting' situation.

 

I've got nothing against you either mate - this kind of thing makes the GF great!

[Stu Monty]

Of course it still stands. I don't give a fuck if Putin thinks he's right, the fucking mentalist.

So it's wrong for any country to invade another to right a wrong, as in my example?

 

That's a bizarre stance to take.