Kromkamp, Josemi, Gonzalez, Sissoko, Morientes, Keane...

[Paul]

The money thing is always thrown into this argument, but only in Rafa's favour by making comparisons with Fergie or Chelsea. I never see anyone mention what Steve Bruce achieves at Wigan with significantly less money, or what Martin O'Neill has done throughout his career.

 

To be honest, I think Rafa's transfer record is poor overall. He has made some brilliant signings, some very poor signings and loads of utterly pointless signings. It's the utterly pointless that I take issue with. However, I'm not even convinced that all of the poor signings were actually poor; it seems to me that he appears only to be interested in technical coaching to improve a player and he either responds (like Djimi Traore and Steven Gerrard) or he doesn't (like the many, many failures).

 

I just wonder what his success ratio would be like for improving players if he combined his brilliance at the technical side of coaching with at least a passing acknowledgement of the mental side of the game. It is a fact that confidence players seem to fail under Rafa and yet they can be very successful under other managers who try to get inside their heads.

 

It seems to me that he gives it his all with the technical support and if that doesn't work, he just fucks the player off as a hopeless case. To me, that is a significant flaw and is also hugely wastful of an expensive potential resource.

[Unrighteous]

To be honest, Paul. I don't really follow O'Neils pre-Villa's transfer record but since then it's really hinged upon Ashley Young.

 

He spent what? £13m on him? And it was a bit of a gamble... and it was a gamble that Rafa wanted to take but LFC wouldn't allow him spending more than £8m? £9m? On him...

 

Think of our left flank if we had picked up Ashley Young. Yikes... We'd be very good as Young, Barry, and Agblonahor carry Villa, IMO.

[kopheart]

We need to keep it real guys, simply Rafa has never been able to compete £ 4 £ and to compare against those that have not won silverware in premiership (Bruce , Moyles etc) is ridiculous as they have no silverware to measure thier shrewdness in the market!

 

WE are CLOSER THAN WEVE EVER BEEN on a comparative shoe string to our nearest competitors, so wake up and smell the coffee and back the Rafa, the Team , even the board (the liverpool way) and review at the end of the season - imploding is the style of others..

[Catch22]

The money thing is always thrown into this argument, but only in Rafa's favour by making comparisons with Fergie or Chelsea. I never see anyone mention what Steve Bruce achieves at Wigan with significantly less money, or what Martin O'Neill has done throughout his career.

 

To be honest, I think Rafa's transfer record is poor overall. He has made some brilliant signings, some very poor signings and loads of utterly pointless signings. It's the utterly pointless that I take issue with. However, I'm not even convinced that all of the poor signings were actually poor; it seems to me that he appears only to be interested in technical coaching to improve a player and he either responds (like Djimi Traore and Steven Gerrard) or he doesn't (like the many, many failures).

 

I just wonder what his success ratio would be like for improving players if he combined his brilliance at the technical side of coaching with at least a passing acknowledgement of the mental side of the game. It is a fact that confidence players seem to fail under Rafa and yet they can be very successful under other managers who try to get inside their heads.

 

It seems to me that he gives it his all with the technical support and if that doesn't work, he just fucks the player off as a hopeless case. To me, that is a significant flaw and is also hugely wastful of an expensive potential resource.

 

I dont think you can compare the top teams with the middling teams as the budgets & goals are so different (if Rafa spends £30m on a player who lasts 2 years but wins 2 PL then it is a brilliant deal for us)& the number of players who may potentially improve a side are so small.

 

Within the middling teams Moyes & MoN have vg records but how do you know what they would do at a top side (the Keane issue) & how do you compare those achievements to any top4 club?

For instance,MoN is being lauded for buying Heskey for £3.5m but Rafa was about to be lynched if he had done the same.

 

Within the top teams i think most would agree that we had the worst squad when Rafa arrived & now have the 2nd/3rd with significant age advantages pushing up naturally into 2nd imminently

Also we are much closer to the Mancs than we were.

(maybe people don't agree with the squad improvements but then why are they demanding a PL title if we have the 4th worst squad?)

 

Factually we have spent the least out of the big 4 sides (& if wages dont count in transfer spending then Kewell & Degen are great signings which they obviously aren't)

 

So, IMO,Rafa has "out-improved" all 3 other teams (& about to pass 2 so it is not just a "catch-up") whilst spending less than each.

 

I dont see how this can be anything other than an excellent record.

 

Rafa's ability to quickly cut a bad deal is an excellent gambling/trading habit to have (& so opposite to GH)

 

The only 1 of his sales who has gone onto a major CL club is Momo who was sold as Masch is better & at a profit.

If Rafa was failing with confidence players then they would be moving onto other top teams & being successful but they aren't.

Bellamy/Keane/Cisse & Crouch have all moved to their level of just below the very top (out of the CL but as "main men" in the PL) which shows it is not a confidence issue.

[Paul]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on his record as I think his scattergun approach has been exceptionally wasteful - especially when you look at what he (usually, I have to add post-Keane) achieves when he spends big. I'm also not completely sold with the whole "shit squad" when he arrived thing as he won the European Cup with basically that same squad plus Xabi and Lil' Luis.

 

In fact I think that point shows how often people bought into his squad obsession: he kept buying players for the squad when what was needed was new players for the team. We've always had players who could do a job when required; the difference now is that we've got a first eleven of players ranging from very good Premiership standard through to world class.

 

The squad itself remains relatively uninspiring - especially in the attacking areas, though. In fact, the only area where I feel the squad has any genuine depth is centre half and that's fragile considering Sami's age and Agger's contract situation. I wouldn't class central midfield as having any depth now that Gerrard simply has to be used as an attacker, either. At full back, wide midfield and in attack we are certainly light on genuine quality when you look beyond the first eleven. Even ingoal, we're unproven (although I suspect he's OK, Cavalieri).

[Unrighteous]

I've been banging on about how we need to improve the bench for about two years and been called a moron for it.

[Thants]

I've been banging on about how we need to improve the bench for about two years and been called a moron for it.

 

Moron

 

 

Well someone had to.

[Paul]

I've been banging on about how we need to improve the bench for about two years and been called a moron for it.

 

I disagree. We need to improve the team - that will then strengthen the bench automatically. With an open cheque book I'd sign four new players for the team, basically a new pair of flanks, as well as another centre forward. The usurped players, who are all very good Premiership standard, would then give us an immense bench. If Rafa had focused the money he did have more firmly on the team, I reckon we'd have improved quicker: two very good players or one world class one in every season instead of a mixed bag of six or eight, most of whom were no better than what we had, would have reaped more rapid benefits, in my view.

[Menc]

The squad itself remains relatively uninspiring - especially in the attacking areas, though. In fact, the only area where I feel the squad has any genuine depth is centre half and that's fragile considering Sami's age and Agger's contract situation. I wouldn't class central midfield as having any depth now that Gerrard simply has to be used as an attacker, either. At full back, wide midfield and in attack we are certainly light on genuine quality when you look beyond the first eleven. Even ingoal, we're unproven (although I suspect he's OK, Cavalieri).

 

But compared to the midfield he inherited? Gerrard and Hamann backed up by Diao and Biscan?

 

Certainly Gerrard's much better used behind the striker, but in the event of an emergency he could be used in the centre.

 

Surely to buy somebody to back up a position where Gerrard can play to a world class standard would constitute buying for the bench, or the scattergun approach. It wouldn't be a good use of resources.

 

What's missing more depth in attack and quality on the flanks (wing and full-back); we're very well stocked throughout central midfield and defence, in my opinion.

[Ponz]

I disagree. We need to improve the team - that will then strengthen the bench automatically. With an open cheque book I'd sign four new players for the team, basically a new pair of flanks, as well as another centre forward. The usurped players, who are all very good Premiership standard, would then give us an immense bench. If Rafa had focused the money he did have more firmly on the team, I reckon we'd have improved quicker: two very good players or one world class one in every season instead of a mixed bag of six or eight, most of whom were no better than what we had, would have reaped more rapid benefits, in my view.

 

I think our wage structure may be a big factor in the weak bench. Unlike Chelsea and United, we struggle to afford first XI-level earners once they've been usurped. This partly accounts for the sales of Crouch, Sissoko and Garcia and the turmoil over Agger's new deal. Retail all four and you've got the "spine" of a pretty formidable bench.

[Vulmea]

I think Rafa's transfer policy has largely been dicated not so much by his choices or the total amount of money rafa's had but what money he's had available, when and who's been available to buy. It should also be considered that he's been making money along the way and achieving his 'performance' targets.

 

Chelsea bought their team at huge expense over a couple of years and have then added to it, Wenger grew his over a period of years and groomed players into it, Ferguson kept trying to buy a team, failed ran out of money drafted in half a team of youth players he could bully then once he had a team bought players at enormous prices to stay there. These and our past managers are really the only reasonable comparisons. Rafa's turnover has been enormous but so have his achievements and the improvements in the quality of the squad.

[Royal Family]

To be honest, I think Rafa's transfer record is poor overall. He has made some brilliant signings, some very poor signings and loads of utterly pointless signings. It's the utterly pointless that I take issue with.

 

Absolutely spot on that analysis, Paul. It's the 'in one year, out the next' signings that are just utterly pointless in terms of squad continuity and development.

[Section_31]

This may sound a bit daft but I actually don't think Rafa thinks about players as individuals or people, or considers their distinct qualities and their personalities, because he's so focused on the concept of team and tactics.

 

I think he views a player in terms of their ability to be molded into the whole and to do what they're told. I can't ever imagine him scouting a player and getting excited at their skill or vision or heading ability, more their workrate and athleticism.

 

I think this is sometimes why he comes across as wasteful in his approach, he scoops up players who 'appear' to be what he needs and when they can't fit into the side the way he wants them to he just lets them go. He's not a players' manager, I don't think he's even a fan of footballers - just football - and even then not as a game, but as a challenge which needs to be solved. He's Sherlock Holmes and the team is his fiddle..

[Stu Monty]

Absolutely spot on that analysis, Paul. It's the 'in one year, out the next' signings that are just utterly pointless in terms of squad continuity and development.

 

But if you're starting from a relative dearth of ability (which he was in my opinion, and I can't be arsed arguing about it again) then you have to ask whether getting five players or one player makes sense. We are now at the point where we can do the one/two player a window route because of a bit more depth but that was deemed unwise by Rafa for the first few seasons.

 

Buying one superstar with his annual £20m is all well and good until he gets injured and you're left with Biscan, Diao and Diouf.

[Guest Kenny]

to be honest I can see the squad players leaving in the summer, the Likes of Benny noon, Babel, Dossena, Pennant, maybe even Xabi. And with no funds available we will need to replace these players. And we will be taking losses on a several players I believe. I just hope some of these so called youngsters start showing some promise soon.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Kenny

[Brownie]

This may sound a bit daft but I actually don't think Rafa thinks about players as individuals or people, or considers their distinct qualities and their personalities, because he's so focused on the concept of team and tactics.

 

I think he views a player in terms of their ability to be molded into the whole and to do what they're told. I can't ever imagine him scouting a player and getting excited at their skill or vision or heading ability, more their workrate and athleticism.

 

I think this is sometimes why he comes across as wasteful in his approach, he scoops up players who 'appear' to be what he needs and when they can't fit into the side the way he wants them to he just lets them go. He's not a players' manager, I don't think he's even a fan of footballers - just football - and even then not as a game, but as a challenge which needs to be solved. He's Sherlock Holmes and the team is his fiddle..

 

Good post and I agree entirely. Rafa sees football as a challenge to himself and he wants to win that challenge; I think that sometimes explains some of the decisions that he makes, i.e. when he tries to be a bit too clever.

 

Just look at when we score a goal; i've NEVER seen Rafa celebrate a goal. I used to love that in him because it showed me that he had the ability to remain calm in stressful situations but as time has gone by i've started to link that to his weaknesses. I'm not saying he isn't passionate about football or anything but his lack of emotion is startling to me. I went absolutely fucking nuts when Torres scored on Sunday; I just couldn't help it, yet the camera cuts to Rafa and there he is shouting instructions to players.

 

I'm not criticising him for that, it's just his way, but I think it's a fascinating insight into the way he sees football.

[Section_31]

Good post and I agree entirely. Rafa sees football as a challenge to himself and he wants to win that challenge; I think that sometimes explains some of the decisions that he makes, i.e. when he tries to be a bit too clever.

 

Just look at when we score a goal; i've NEVER seen Rafa celebrate a goal. I used to love that in him because it showed me that he had the ability to remain calm in stressful situations but as time has gone by i've started to link that to his weaknesses. I'm not saying he isn't passionate about football or anything but his lack of emotion is startling to me. I went absolutely fucking nuts when Torres scored on Sunday; I just couldn't help it, yet the camera cuts to Rafa and there he is shouting instructions to players.

 

I'm not criticising him for that, it's just his way, but I think it's a fascinating insight into the way he sees football.

 

 

Yeah same here.

 

That's something which comes across in managers like Ferguson and Dalglish, you see them 'mimic' a header when a striker goes in for the heads, and then you see them go absolutely apeshit when the goal is scored.

 

With Ferguson too you'll often here him say the players 'expressed themselves' or 'enjoyed themselves out there'.

 

As I say, I can't conceive of Rafa ever being impressed by an individual footballer's skill at all.

[Guest LFD]

Overall Benitez has done well with the funds he's had.

 

99 million net (even less now with Keane going - over five years is 20 million net.

 

In that time to bring in Reina, Arbeloa, Agger, Skrtel, Aurelio, Mascherano, Alonso, Lucas, Babel, Riera, Benayoun, Kuyt, Torres - plus the youngsters ala Nemeth, Insua etc. No doubt if he sold this group they'd be worth a hell of a lot more than 99 million.

 

I also think another reason why he's bought well is the age of the spine of our team squad. They can play for 5+ years together, Alonso has already player five years for us, Reina can play for 10 years, it shows long term investment.

 

Sure he's made some mistakes, but they have not cost us much financially, only really Keane and Morientes financial losses. Some of the flops have made us money - Sissoko, Crouch (wasn't really a flop), Bellamy, Carson all appreciating in value.

 

By having to improve various parts of his squad he's spread his budget in the past which explains many mistakes. Other disappointments have come from missing out on known targets such as Alves, Vidic, Malouda, Simao, Walcott etc.

 

It's easy for people to pick bones by naming poor buys, but all managers do this. Luckily Benitez gets rid of them quickly and not for a loss. The good eggs stay and enhance the team. On our budget / financial situation I don't think we can be demanding all player brought to be shrewd buys. What we can demand is progress and this squad under Benitez has progressed a bast amount quality wise.

[Guest LFD]

Is Degen still alive?

[Brownie]

Yeah same here.

 

That's something which comes across in managers like Ferguson and Dalglish, you see them 'mimic' a header when a striker goes in for the heads, and then you see them go absolutely apeshit when the goal is scored.

 

With Ferguson too you'll often here him say the players 'expressed themselves' or 'enjoyed themselves out there'.

 

As I say, I can't conceive of Rafa ever being impressed by an individual footballer's skill at all.

 

Again, I agree. I don't think it's unfair to look at those examples, analyse them and then come to a conclusion. Not all managers have to be emotionally attached, like Fergie, Dalglish etc but i'm actually struggling to think of too many successful managers who adopt such a pragmatic approach, apart from Rafa.

[Spy Bee]

Good post and I agree entirely. Rafa sees football as a challenge to himself and he wants to win that challenge; I think that sometimes explains some of the decisions that he makes, i.e. when he tries to be a bit too clever.

 

Just look at when we score a goal; i've NEVER seen Rafa celebrate a goal. I used to love that in him because it showed me that he had the ability to remain calm in stressful situations but as time has gone by i've started to link that to his weaknesses. I'm not saying he isn't passionate about football or anything but his lack of emotion is startling to me. I went absolutely fucking nuts when Torres scored on Sunday; I just couldn't help it, yet the camera cuts to Rafa and there he is shouting instructions to players.

 

I'm not criticising him for that, it's just his way, but I think it's a fascinating insight into the way he sees football.

I think this is just an example of your changing opinion on Rafa clouding your judgement. If it was good back then, then why is it suddenly bad now? I don't understand how you suddenly see it as a weakness?

 

I think his transfer record is by and large a good one. I am a bit bemused sometimes and I wonder why he tries to srengthen certain areas when others appear more pressing, but as you can't get inside the man's head, you just have to judge on the progress the team makes.

 

It's back to that old Hermes argument... are we making progress?

 

I think we are. And I think we are doing it under some pretty severe handicaps (Parry, Hicks, Gillette, money).

[Guest LFD]

but i'm actually struggling to think of too many successful managers who adopt such a pragmatic approach, apart from Rafa.

 

Eriksson and Capello.

[Brownie]

Is Degen still alive?

 

He's currently stuck together with a combination of blue-tac, selotape and prit stick.

[Spy Bee]

Again, I agree. I don't think it's unfair to look at those examples, analyse them and then come to a conclusion. Not all managers have to be emotionally attached, like Fergie, Dalglish etc but i'm actually struggling to think of too many successful managers who adopt such a pragmatic approach, apart from Rafa.

 

Aw come on Brownie! You can't genuinely be using that as a criticism of him? It's really weak.

 

He doesn't celebrate goals.

Other successful managers I am aware of celebrate goals.

QED Rafa must not be a successful manager.

 

It sounds like shite propaganda on Fox News.

 

I know you are no fan of Rafa, and I know you try and put your points across in a considered way without any venom. But some of the angles you have been using to criticise him are totally unfair and to be honest, worthy of contempt.

[Brownie]

Eriksson and Capello.

 

Capello is a good shout; not so sure about Eriksson. He used to display emotion when goals went in.