Keir Starmer

[sir roger]

Will vote for any decent socialists in the NEC elections and then cancel my subs.

 

Got taken in completely by Starmer , and that is embarrassing for a guy as old as me and with such a healthy disdain for politicians generally.

 

Avoiding the politics threads on here will be good for my mental health though.

[Jairzinho]

31 minutes ago, stringvest said:

I know, but the mumblings those enlightened individuals don't get a look in - not even in this country.  The fact is though, that Israelis have for decades voted for people wanting essentially to repeat the actions perpetrated on them on others, while hiding behind a massively over-engineered PR campaign.  A hideous regime.  And those people that do not reject it are just as bad.  

I don't disagree. 

 

I think for a lot of Israelis the damage is done in schools. They basically have overtly racist education and are trained to hate the "other" (in the same way the opposite happens in neighbouring countries).

 

So you're left with these deeply indoctrinated people that have spent their entire lives there, added to by people who see no issue with moving there (one of which being my uncle...yeah, Christmas dinners, as you can imagine, were ace when he came to visit with his family).

 

Israel and Saudi Arabia should be pariah states. The fact the UK has them both as bezzies, is a national disgrace.

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Even the people who produced the original ‘report’ JVP have said it was anti Semitic.  
 

 

 

Great. Now we have Daniel Sugarman, the Public Affairs Officer for the Board of Deputies and someone who'll be very happy that RLB has gone, explaining why it's antisemitic. What he linked has Jewish Voice for Peace saying it can provide fodder for "antisemitic tropes". But I'm sure you could take anything negative about the Israeli gov and do the same.

 

I'm sure it's nothing to do with protecting the Israeli gov and anything anti-Israel being twisted into "conspiracy theories" and "antisemitic tropes". Or being glad that one of the most well known MP's that supported Corbyn is now out of the cabinet, especially after their campaign to make sure he wasn't elected. Sugarman would be fine with another decade of Tory rule I guess too. He certainly doesn't give a fuck about Labour damaging itself, he's probably loving it.

 

And like has been said, there's a fair amount of people that would say equating the actions of the Israeli gov with Jews in general is antisemitic in itself. The BoD are one of the last groups of idiots to be getting any clarity from on this I think.

 

And still, if this was something about Islamophobic tropes and some MP from a party you prefer getting removed you'd soon be pointing out how PC it all was.

 

It'll probably cause a lot of damage this seeing as RLB was the runner up in the leadership election and a lot of her supporters will be pissed off which could lead many of them to leave the party/vote for a different party because of this in the next election. The more this all drags on the more it damages Labour and groups like the BoD will be happily stoking it all the way, just like they did with Corbyn.

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I see you're trying to make an analogy, but I don't think the situation lends itself to analogies. There isn't any country, be it Saudi Arabia or any other, which holds the same significance for Muslims that a Jewish homeland holds for the Hebrew people. That's a connection you simply don't understand, and I'd suggest that that failure to understand it is at the root of the problems the left keeps having with this issue.

 

Also, you evidently missed my support for the sackings of Lib Dem MPs Jenny Tonge and David Ward back in the day. Consistency, folks!

 

 

[Bjornebye]

11 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Israel and Saudi Arabia should be pariah states. The fact the UK has them both as bezzies, is a national disgrace.

Spot on. 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

3 hours ago, redheart said:

Sorry but this is pathetic.

 

I have dealt with RBL on numerous occasions and she is a thoroughly decent human being. She retweeted an article which is mostly aimed at saying anyone who didn't vote Labour because of Corbyn essentially voted Tory and we need rid of Tories at any cost. RBL agreed.

 

There was one comment re racism and capitalism. This referenced US police forces in the US being trained by Israeli Services (true) and the use of neck kneeling by those forces (also true there is plenty of evidence). The general point being Israeli forces use excessive and unlawful force against those of a different race/ethnicity/nationality and often kill them for no reason and without consequence. All true.

 

I see no anti-Semitism here. I see a criticism of Israel. Even in the overly broad and oppressive definition of anti-Semitism  issue by the IHRA this is not anti-Semitism it is a critique of the tactics used by Israeli services.

 

I am tired of "one issue" politics being used to stifle debate.

 

I am tired of Labour (a party which has done more for all forms of equality than any other) allowing itself to bullied in this way and throwing decent people under the bus in a craven attempt to gain power regardless of the cost.

 

I can no longer remain a member of the party and I will be leaving also. I will continue to vote Labour (no real alternative on the left) but I will not financially support this nonsense

Look, there is a time and a place to have this sort of conversation.  That time is not now, as the opposition, with the media hungry to rip into Labour the minute that they say anything to do with Israel, or Jews, or Palestine.

It's that fucking simple.  Avoid this fucking toxic subject right now. 

 

Starmer did the right thing, it was a fucking rediculous lack of awareness. All that great press he's gotten for his PMQs, the upsurge in Labour polling, all for nothing, all sacrificed for some throwaway comment from a fucking nobody actress that RLB retweeted. 

 

That's the margin for error when you're Labour, that's the fine line they HAVE to walk if they want to get back into power.  RLB doesn't want to play the game, that's a startling lack of political nous. 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

25 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Will vote for any decent socialists in the NEC elections and then cancel my subs.

 

Got taken in completely by Starmer , and that is embarrassing for a guy as old as me and with such a healthy disdain for politicians generally.

 

Avoiding the politics threads on here will be good for my mental health though.

Politics is a big boys game.  Landmines everywhere due to the right wing leanings of the MSM, the likes of Harry Cole, Guido, Peston, Marr, Neill, they get clicks, they get airtime, if you give them an inch they will take a mile.  Starmer knows this.  You inch your way back into the frame, and you do that by assimilating some of what they espouse, and then you win an election.  Guess what, THEN you can have those sort of conversations about Israel, from a position of power.

 

Don't be dumb.  Proper socialism is dead, it's basically terrorism in the eyes of the media.  Of course that's wrong, of course that's shit, I'm a socialist, I want a better society, but for christ's sake play their game, beat them at their own game, and then change the game.

[Red Phoenix]

25 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I see you're trying to make an analogy, but I don't think the situation lends itself to analogies. There isn't any country, be it Saudi Arabia or any other, which holds the same significance for Muslims that a Jewish homeland holds for the Hebrew people. That's a connection you simply don't understand, and I'd suggest that that failure to understand it is at the root of the problems the left keeps having with this issue.

 

Also, you evidently missed my support for the sackings of Lib Dem MPs Jenny Tonge and David Ward back in the day. Consistency, folks!

 

I can see your point with the first part, but when you get to at least one of those Lib Dem MP's it's obviously different.

 

In RLB's case we have an MP who's openly stated support for Jewish people over and over again, but linked one article by someone else that mentioned something about Israeli authorities in one sentence, and she was removed because it's somehow classed as an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

 

I don't think things would've gone down too well if she'd tweeted what Ward once did instead though : "The big question is – if I lived in #Gaza would I fire a rocket? – probably yes". If she'd done that in the current climate it would've left no room for doubt that she'd totally fucked herself over. Nothing on that scale has happened though.

[Red Phoenix]

25 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

Look, there is a time and a place to have this sort of conversation.  That time is not now, as the opposition, with the media hungry to rip into Labour the minute that they say anything to do with Israel, or Jews, or Palestine.

It's that fucking simple.  Avoid this fucking toxic subject right now.

 

There's no way that's going to happen if Israel decide to annex part of the West Bank shortly (July 1st they decide from what I can see) like is feared. Labour should be speaking out if that happens, not staying silent in fear of a bunch of shithouse biased journos.

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's no way that's going to happen if Israel decide to annex part of the West Bank shortly (July 1st they decide from what I can see) like is feared. Labour should be speaking out if that happens, not staying silent in fear of a bunch of shithouse biased journos.

It shouldn't be up to Labour to speak out. The BBC reporting of it will be interesting. Was it when they were showing footage of Belgrade being twatted with heavy artillery that the government quickly got them to fuck it off? I'm pretty sure they kicked off at Newsround with Andy Peters about it too. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's no way that's going to happen if Israel decide to annex part of the West Bank shortly (July 1st they decide from what I can see) like is feared. Labour should be speaking out if that happens, not staying silent in fear of a bunch of shithouse biased journos.

 I would imagine that if Israel goes on the offensive again, is if they weren't always, then there is likely to be no issue denouncing that behaviour. There's a big difference between that and what RLB did though, isn't there. When everybody and their mother is posting retractions, including the author, RLB refusing to take it down after naively having retweeted it in the first place is just asking for trouble.

 

It's a strange hill to die on for her and for all the people who are ripping up their membership over it. Like, I can take the worst performance in living memory leading to a big majority for the opposition, the party in shambles, and losing the fight to remain in Europe, but fuck me if you sack - of all people - Rebecca Long fucking Bailey for being both daft and obstinate, then that's me withdrawing my membership.I suspect the party will be stronger for it. Stronger as in more electable and more able to unite together as one entity to bring an end to the Tory reign that has last a decade and might last another if we're not careful. Remember, Starmer is the enemy, not the Tories. After all, he doesn't act exactly the way Corbyn would in every situation. Don't you know he nearly didn't lose an election a couple of elections ago. Good stuff. 

 

Makes me want to become a member, to be honest. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

It was interesting to see Galloway personally replying to posters on twitter who were giving in the big 'I'm cancelling' telling them to come to his party only to be told 'I'd rather eat glass'. 

 

 

[Stickman]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Great. Now we have Daniel Sugarman

Definitely one for the smarmy faces thread...

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

40 minutes ago, Numero said:

 

 

It's a strange hill to die on for her and for all the people who are ripping up their membership over it. Like, I can take the worst performance in living memory leading to a big majority for the opposition, the party in shambles, and losing the fight to remain in Europe, but fuck me if you sack - of all people - Rebecca Long fucking Bailey for being both daft and obstinate, then that's me withdrawing my membership.I suspect the party will be stronger for it. Stronger as in more electable and more able to unite together as one entity to bring an end to the Tory reign that has last a decade and might last another if we're not careful. Remember, Starmer is the enemy, not the Tories. After all, he doesn't act exactly the way Corbyn would in every situation. Don't you know he nearly didn't lose an election a couple of elections ago. Good stuff. 

 

Makes me want to become a member, to be honest. 

 

A little unfair this stuff, do you really think sir roger, for example, thinks Starmer is the enemy not the Tories? Or that anyone actually wants Starmer to act exactly like Corbyn?

 

Also, I'm not sure how lots of people leaving is going to strengthen the party. It's certainly not going to help when the party requires people going door to door.

 

But yes, unity will be much easier once the part of the political spectrum that is represented by the party narrows. Especially as it'll narrow in the direction the media wants. It might well work as the party needs the vote of Volvo nonce more than it needs to stop people on the left voting Green or not bothering at all.

 

 

[Jairzinho]

9 minutes ago, Stickman said:

Definitely one for the smarmy faces thread...

 

 

 

He looks like a fucking cartoon.

[mattyq]

So is it true that she was asked to take the tweet down, refused and was sacked?

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

It shouldn't be up to Labour to speak out. The BBC reporting of it will be interesting. Was it when they were showing footage of Belgrade being twatted with heavy artillery that the government quickly got them to fuck it off? I'm pretty sure they kicked off at Newsround with Andy Peters about it too. 

 

I know it shouldn't be up to them and I doubt they'll be the only ones, but would like them to and am sure some of them will. I don't know about the Belgrade footage either and what happened but it wouldn't be surpising given how bad the BBC have become.

 

1 hour ago, Numero said:

It's a strange hill to die on for her and for all the people who are ripping up their membership over it. Like, I can take the worst performance in living memory leading to a big majority for the opposition, the party in shambles, and losing the fight to remain in Europe, but fuck me if you sack - of all people - Rebecca Long fucking Bailey for being both daft and obstinate, then that's me withdrawing my membership.I suspect the party will be stronger for it. Stronger as in more electable and more able to unite together as one entity to bring an end to the Tory reign that has last a decade and might last another if we're not careful. Remember, Starmer is the enemy, not the Tories. After all, he doesn't act exactly the way Corbyn would in every situation. Don't you know he nearly didn't lose an election a couple of elections ago. Good stuff. 

 

Makes me want to become a member, to be honest. 

 

It's because it's not an isolated incident, it's the latest in a long running series of problems that started when Corbyn was leader. Most of us here know how bad the bias was against Corbyn and all of the propaganda involved, the coup against him to try and get him out, the recent leaks proving how some of them were working against members of their own party. Now this has happened and as we can see from this thread alone (there's an absolute load of it on social media too), people are getting sick of it to the point of leaving.

 

And there'll be more to come surely.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

1 hour ago, Numero said:

It was interesting to see Galloway personally replying to posters on twitter who were giving in the big 'I'm cancelling' telling them to come to his party only to be told 'I'd rather eat glass'. 

 

 

It's a lie, they'd rather join his party than eat glass.

 

That's partly how Cummings has won, he's called people's bluffs on shit like this.

 

"Go on then, here's the line, here's me crossing it, and now it's upto you to still vote for me, or put a cross next to someone else.  There we go, nice and easy wasn't it, well done." 

[Numero Veinticinco]

46 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

A little unfair this stuff, do you really think sir roger, for example, thinks Starmer is the enemy not the Tories?

I was talking generally,  but more to do with the response on Twitter and in this thread which just picks at everything Labour does under Starmer. The general point I’m making is the one I’ve been making about the left for years. There’s no greater enemy to left-wing politics that a left seemingly intent on eating itself. It was the same under Corbyn. And you know what, the Corbynites who claimed it was the utterly despicable are the ones guilty of it. They’ve concocted a bullshit caricature and seem intent to knock it down. Like I say, this seems to be a very bizarre line in the sand. It’s almost as if some were waiting for an excuse and group thinkers follow. As for specific examples like Sir Roger, I don’t know if he sees Starmer as the enemy or not, but judging by pretty much all of his recent posts, I think he’s certainly an enemy if not the enemy. 
 

58 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Or that anyone actually wants Starmer to act exactly like Corbyn?

Oh, this one is far easier to answer. I absolutely think some see Corbyn as the perfect example of a leader and anything substantively different is akin to right wing fascism, or at least Pseudo-Tory.   
 

Look, I’ll hold my hands up and admit to it being a cunty post, but I’m tired of it mate; I’m tired of this Tory government and as their own viable opposition I’m even more tired of Labour supporters doing their best to fuck over Labour whilst the Tories have a the mirror universe, evil twin honey monster chuckling his way to a full term. 

 

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

Also, I'm not sure how lots of people leaving is going to strengthen the party. It's certainly not going to help when the party requires people going door to door.

Because unity is important in a team. If we - the left - are going to get a single one of our desired policies into action, we need to give our collective head a wobble. I’m not, of course, talking about disagreement, I’m talking about self sabotage. 
 

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:



But yes, unity will be much easier once the part of the political spectrum that is represented by the party narrows. Especially as it'll narrow in the direction the media wants. It might well work as the party needs the vote of Volvo nonce more than it needs to stop people on the left voting Green or not bothering at all.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough about who I’m talking about. It’s not part of a political spectrum that I’m talking about. It’s those, from whichever part of the broad spectrum Labour is supposed to represent, who are of the mindset that if the Leader does do and say everything they want at all times, they’re a price of shit. It doesn’t matter who the leader is. After all, it doesn’t matter who is seen as the enemy in this case, it all amounts to the same thing; a good time for the Tories. Half the Tories hate the other half, but they shit the fuck up when it’s time to win support because they know who their real foe is. 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

36 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

working against members of their own party

I mean, RP, listen to what you’re saying here mate. You’ve read the Twitter responses, it’s just boot on the other foot time. 
 

I agreed with something Jairzinho said the other day about the split being something that is unfixable (excuse the scruffy paraphrase). Despite sharing, at a guess, 80% of their politics and finding another 15% palatable, they’d sooner bring each other down. We don’t even know what policy platform Labour will run   on yet, but has that stopped the cries of Starmer being a right wing Blairite, he’ll bend on purging the left out of Labour? No, it hasn’t. In fact, the better Starmer seems to do, the more credible he becomes, the more a certain section of his party hate him. It’s fucking ridiculous. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

40 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

It's a lie, they'd rather join his party than eat glass.

 

That's partly how Cummings has won, he's called people's bluffs on shit like this.

 

"Go on then, here's the line, here's me crossing it, and now it's upto you to still vote for me, or put a cross next to someone else.  There we go, nice and easy wasn't it, well done." 

Yeah, I don’t think they meant it literally. 

[Jairzinho]

22 minutes ago, Numero said:

 

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough about who I’m talking about. It’s not part of a political spectrum that I’m talking about. It’s those, from whichever part of the broad spectrum Labour is supposed to represent, who are of the mindset that if the Leader does do and say everything they want at all times, they’re a price of shit. It doesn’t matter who the leader is. After all, it doesn’t matter who is seen as the enemy in this case, it all amounts to the same thing; a good time for the Tories. Half the Tories hate the other half, but they shit the fuck up when it’s time to win support because they know who their real foe is. 

 

 

Oh, I know. But this will be the result. A lot of the left will leave the party.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Fucking hell. My phone’s autocorrect is terrible. Sorry to anybody trying to read that shit. 

[Red Phoenix]

43 minutes ago, Numero said:

I mean, RP, listen to what you’re saying here mate. You’ve read the Twitter responses, it’s just boot on the other foot time. 
 

I agreed with something Jairzinho said the other day about the split being something that is unfixable (excuse the scruffy paraphrase). Despite sharing, at a guess, 80% of their politics and finding another 15% palatable, they’d sooner bring each other down. We don’t even know what policy platform Labour will run   on yet, but has that stopped the cries of Starmer being a right wing Blairite, he’ll bend on purging the left out of Labour? No, it hasn’t. In fact, the better Starmer seems to do, the more credible he becomes, the more a certain section of his party hate him. It’s fucking ridiculous. 

 

I'm sure Starmer will be able to hack being called a right wing Blairite. After all it's not as if the media are going to join in and run a years long campaign on that issue like they did with Corbyn and antisemitism, to the point that it loses him tons of votes when the next election comes around. A lot of them would probably be fine with a right wing Blairite in charge, better than Corbyn after all.

 

It got that stupid last year that I remember a journo on LBC talking about how Corbyn wanted to re-open Auschwitz. When it gets to that level you know things have gone fucking mental. So when you talk about the worst election result in recent memory it's clearly not all down to Corbyn not being good enough, even though he did have several faults and make mistakes. For some reason he sure managed to drive a load of clowns half insane though.

[Numero Veinticinco]

28 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I'm sure Starmer will be able to hack being called a right wing Blairite. After all it's not as if the media are going to join in and run a years long campaign on that issue like they did with Corbyn and antisemitism, to the point that it loses him tons of votes when the next election comes around. A lot of them would probably be fine with a right wing Blairite in charge, better than Corbyn after all.

 

It got that stupid last election that I remember a journo on LBC talking about how Corbyn wanted to re-open Auschwitz. When it gets to that level you know things have gone fucking mental. So when you talk about the worst election result in recent memory it's clearly not all down to Corbyn not being good enough. For some reason he sure managed to drive a load of clowns half insane though.

I think this part is down to how you see his job. I see part of a Leader’s job to mitigate some of these factors. That’s as true for a football manager or a business leader as it is a party leader. Getting the media onside and gaining support is a big chunk of what needs to be done. Look at the difference in how Klopp deals with the media - who love him - as opposed to Mourinho over the last few years. He went from darling to devil. Klopp has them eating out of his palm. Starmer needs to have the same impact. Corbyn was against the media from day one and it was against him. Obama too had them eating out of his hand, Clinton, Bernie... not so much. My point is, he absolutely got a rough ride, but I don’t absolve his leadership team of all responsibility on that front. Starmer will be judged on that same standard.