Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Pidge]

I find this quite a difficult one, not because I'm inclined towards an isolationist mindset, but more because I don't trust any of the cunts.

 

I'm pretty sure I'll be voting to stay in, I don't buy the arguments that EU directives have been as restrictive as we are often told, fact is it's up to our government to manage the implementation of most of these directives and they have routinely fucked it up and then hidden behind the EU excuse.  Fish and agriculture industries have faced multiple shocks partially because of these directives, but I'm not wholly convinced that these changes wouldn't have been made anyway in some form as a result of consumer pressure. The courts argument doesn't fly with me because our legal system is well tested and relatively robust in it's structure as it is (if not it's implementation all of the time) and so genuine cases for arbitration are often resolved before it gets to the EU and vexacious causes fall by the wayside before then as well.  I've been quite grateful for some of the limits imposed on these tory bastards (imagine if Grayling was really set loose...) as well.

 

There is still a question of sovereignty which really concerns me though, just it's more a matter of individual sovereignty and the threat to consumer rights and privacy which TTIP and similar agreements pose. But we'll be signing it as part of the EU and I fucking hate that.

 

But then, leaving the EU will only increase our reliance on trade agreements with markets which dwarf us (in size if not always financial muscle quite yet) and we'll be facing them on our own. The LSE have used the uncertainty to try and kickstart a long-requited merger with the Boerse and the reactions to that are bizarre (some genuinely consider it an EU conspiracy and don't seem to realise that it's a private entity expanding it's position as the dominant market in the area), if we do leave I hope the merger happens as otherwise it could be an economic disaster. How many of the FTSE 100 have significant business (if not origin) in Europe a few barriers might wellincrease the likelyhood that some of these firms break parts of their business off to operate as a separate entity.  Not a terrible idea for most of those companies in isolation but a widespread upheaval could see our market soon fluctuating like other narrower exchanges in the East and it would soon bite everyone in one way or another.

 

Long way away and loads of time for discussion but pretty sure I'm in right now...

[cloggypop]

The LSE and Boerse merger does give the larger share to the Germans of course.

 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VW1EI

 

It's certainly interesting timing.

[SasaS]

"Mark Garnier, a pro-EU lawmaker for Britain's ruling Conservative Party, said the proposed deal was bound to play into the UK referendum debate.

'The average punter I have no doubt will look at this and say it is the Germans taking over our institutions,' he said."

[A Red]

[Tom R]

Can't believe the brass balls on Nicola Sturgeon complaining how a Brexit would damage Scotland. When Scottish Independence would have seen Scotland dumped out of Europe.

 

Can't quite believe we're having this vote. There's some divisive little shits pushing for it I guess.

 

negged for saying "brexit"

[Nightcat]

I doubt that an Independent Scotland would be left out of the E.U. Even if they technically were out of the E.U. for a few months, the E.U. would accept them back in very quickly.

 

The problem with Scottish independence as proposed by the SNP though is that they were advocating for an Independence that does not exist for members of the E.U. So how come the SNP wants independence from the UK but wants to be part of the E.U.? Take the power away from Westminster and the City and hand it to Brussels, Berlin and Frankfurt. Isn't that hypocritical and misleading?

 

Back on topic. I think you guys would be better voting out of the E.U. I sort of wish Somalia became somehow member of the E.U., then organise a referendum, so I can vote to leave the E.U. 

[Dr Nowt]

negged for saying "brexit"

"I'll be up your sister's Brexit like a rat up a drainpipe" does have a ring to it, though.

[Dave D]

negged for saying "brexit"

Been meaning to ask, what the fuck does brexit mean?

 

I'm assuming it's something very trendy and clever. I refuse to believe it's a shortening/combining of "Britain" and "exit"???

 

Edit- Quick Google confirms above.......shit a brick, what the fuck is going on in the world. When I heard it used in a political interview on the radio the other day I was thinking it was some EU politicians bloody surname!

 

Who makes this shit up, Danny Dyer?

[Dr Nowt]

Been meaning to ask, what the fuck does brexit mean?

 

I'm assuming it's something very trendy and clever. I refuse to believe it's a shortening/combining of "Britain" and "exit"???

Aye, it's a cuntmanteau.

[Moctezuma]

As a man of science I feel I shouldn't get worried about anecdotal evidence, but I can't help starting to get a bit concerned when practically everyone around me (outwith the young well educated demographic) seems to be inclined to leave the EU. A lot of it is down to power of the right wing press with all their 'straight bananas and call a sausage a sausage' shite and people worrying about immigration.

 

Anyone else starting to become concerned that this internal Tory party struggle manifest as some 'give the people democracy' wank is actually going to do some pretty significant harm to the country?

[thechap]

There are several factors that make me want out.

 

Before that I have some observations about some of  the 'In' argument. Dave's deal is utter bollocks. It is beyond trivial and in no way delivers the 'fundamental EU reform' he said he was going to demand. Not even close. Anyone using this 'deal' as a form of persuasion for us to vote to stay takes their audience for complete fools.

 

The 'leap in the dark' argument - when did we become a nation of utter cowards? We had over half a millennia of powerful history before we joined the EU. I'll tell you what's in the 'dark' - a continuation of our proud history of being a trading nation being able to make our own trade deals without having to ask 20-odd other prime ministers if it's okay with them and a continuation of our trade with those left in the EU because to do otherwise would be catastrophic for all. We'll regain control of our borders while continuing to enjoy full intelligence co-operation with other nations crime agencies for the safety and security of all.

 

Only a couple of weeks ago Dave did not 'rule anything out', clearly including taking a leap in the dark. He wasn't scared of it then but after his flimsy meaningless deal it now suddenly scares him. Why? Unless he was bullshitting us all along.

 

 

Why leave?

 

Finally getting shot of the Common Agricultural/Fisheries Policies, the second of which decimated our fishing industry while other nations' fishermen help themselves to the fish in our waters. No more dumping already dead fish overboard because they are the wrong catch.

 

The EU has no concept of democracy. Referendum, Sir? Oh dear, wrong answer. Try again, Sir?

 

Corrupt accounts. Permanently.

 

We can't stop any EU citizen from coming here. It's an open door. Hence the fucking queues at the hospitals, the GP surgeries, the schools, why some people have become victims of crime at the hands of criminals who shouldn't be here and why the house I am trying to buy is £100,000 more expensive than what the last owner paid for it 5 years ago. 

 

The £350m we spend at the EU every week could be all spent here rather than a massive chunk of it being spent elsewhere in the EU.

 

If we like the look of an EU law or regulation we can pass our own version of it to suit ourselves and not to suit people outside of this country.

 

 

If you like the EU working regulations and want to keep them then, fine. Vote for a UK party that likes them too. Clearly a lot of people think that party is Labour. Fine, Vote Labour. At least it will be the policy of the UK government and not the unelected EU Commission.

[Stu Monty]

And Spain can't stop over a million of our pensioners from going over there, clogging up their services.

 

The arguments about services and housing really aren't very good ones. They are struggling because we aren't maintaining and investing properly in them. The idea that staying in the EU and then actually running our own affairs properly, to make use of the influx of economically beneficial migrants, is the one that kills off any duff arguments in those two areas.

 

I like the look of a lot of EU laws that benefit our country, that doesn't mean the Tories are going to pass them. The EU has been generally way more progressive than our leaders have, and has driven human rights in a way they wouldn't be if we were left to our own devices.

[thechap]

Why should I or any UK voter give a shit about Spain? Nice people but their politics and policies are their own business. If they don't want UK people living there I honestly couldn't give a shit.

 

The argument about services and housing are massive, hence why we're having this whole national debate. To say they're not good arguments ranks you alongside those who used to say and indeed often still say that to want to  debate immigration means you're racist. You casually dismiss what is a massive problem for millions of people in this country. 

 

To blame the struggle for those services on lack of investment while ignoring soaring population growth is ridiculous. As is using the phrases "running our own affairs" and "staying in the EU" in the same sentence.

[magicrat]

We should stay

change isn't good for old people

Whats fucking worse is that self serving opportunistic scruffy cunt Boris Ballbag has cost me money on my planned holiday next month

Exchange rate has gone to shit. Him and Gobshite Gove are fucking jokes playing fast and loose with my holiday to further their leadership credentials among the the xenophobic loons at local party local level. Fucking cunts

[JohnnyH]

You think your country's full now. Wait until this lot are sent home.

 

Bloody economic migrants....

 

 

[Moctezuma]

Why should I or any UK voter give a shit about Spain? Nice people but their politics and policies are their own business. If they don't want UK people living there I honestly couldn't give a shit.

 

The argument about services and housing are massive, hence why we're having this whole national debate. To say they're not good arguments ranks you alongside those who used to say and indeed often still say that to want to  debate immigration means you're racist. You casually dismiss what is a massive problem for millions of people in this country. 

 

To blame the struggle for those services on lack of investment while ignoring soaring population growth is ridiculous. As is using the phrases "running our own affairs" and "staying in the EU" in the same sentence.

 

I think you may be getting the wrong end of the stick with regards what Stu is saying, if we come out of the EU we may have to repatriate a load of economically inactive oldies (or they'll come back) and the young determined immigrants who come here (who on average add to the national balance sheet) will be blocked from coming in.  That overall would be bad for the nation given the current set of policies which favour the old considerably - see the triple locked pension, free bus passes and T.V.. licences and protection of inheritance.

 

 

It’s notable that the 2.2million UK citizens resident in other EU member states who have the most to lose and most invested personally in the European project, don't get a vote.

 

 

I would also concur with him that without EU legislation workers and individual rights would have a wrecking ball taken to them by the current government, not to mention environmental legislation and other public interest sphere's.

 

 

Re our payments Norway pay 357.7 million euros a year for access to the single market. Multiply that with 12 and you will get a pretty good estimate of what access to the single market will cost Britain, about 4 billion Euros a year. Plus, as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the government will still have to implement EU directives, without having any say in how they are shaped.

 

 

The UK leaving the EU will be an absolute nightmare on so many levels. The bureaucracy and all other the attendant wrangling will be horrendous on both a macro and micro level. I would also envisage that in cutting off our economic ties with the EU, or even positioning ourselves as a junior partner, there will be an impossibility of even vaguely getting to set the terms in future deals between ourselves and the EU.

 

 

I would also ignore the PR guff about the renegotiation as I would imagine that Cameron didn’t really know what he was trying to negotiate, all he really wanted was something that got his face in the papers/on T.V. with him holding a document stating he had achieved something.

 

[Stu Monty]

Why should I or any UK voter give a shit about Spain? Nice people but their politics and policies are their own business. If they don't want UK people living there I honestly couldn't give a shit.

 

The argument about services and housing are massive, hence why we're having this whole national debate. To say they're not good arguments ranks you alongside those who used to say and indeed often still say that to want to  debate immigration means you're racist. You casually dismiss what is a massive problem for millions of people in this country. 

 

To blame the struggle for those services on lack of investment while ignoring soaring population growth is ridiculous. As is using the phrases "running our own affairs" and "staying in the EU" in the same sentence.

 

If they can't go to Spain then they have to stay here, don't they? So that's another million pensioners you're now looking after aren't you. Which costs money, whether you give a shit or not. 

 

I'm not casually dismissing anything. I'm saying that your logic is that you can't have another kid as the spare room is cluttered up. Yeah, clear the fucking spare room and you can have the kid with very little problem with regards to space.

 

The problem is not inward migration (an economic benefit), it's the management of that migration by an incompetent nation that seems unable to use what is a massive resource.

[Stu Monty]

 

I think you may be getting the wrong end of the stick with regards what Stu is saying, if we come out of the EU we may have to repatriate a load of economically inactive oldies (or they'll come back) and the young determined immigrants who come here (who on average add to the national balance sheet) will be blocked from coming in.  That overall would be bad for the nation given the current set of policies which favour the old considerably - see the triple locked pension, free bus passes and T.V.. licences and protection of inheritance.

 

 

It’s notable that the 2.2million UK citizens resident in other EU member states who have the most to lose and most invested personally in the European project, don't get a vote.

 

 

I would also concur with him that without EU legislation workers and individual rights would have a wrecking ball taken to them by the current government, not to mention environmental legislation and other public interest sphere's.

 

 

Re our payments Norway pay 357.7 million euros a year for access to the single market. Multiply that with 12 and you will get a pretty good estimate of what access to the single market will cost Britain, about 4 billion Euros a year. Plus, as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the government will still have to implement EU directives, without having any say in how they are shaped.

 

 

 

The UK leaving the EU will be an absolute nightmare on so many levels. The bureaucracy and all other the attendant wrangling will be horrendous on both a macro and micro level. I would also envisage that in cutting off our economic ties with the EU, or even positioning ourselves as a junior partner, there will be an impossibility of even vaguely getting to set the terms in future deals between ourselves and the EU.

 

 

I would also ignore the PR guff about the renegotiation as I would imagine that Cameron didn’t really know what he was trying to negotiate, all he really wanted was something that got his face in the papers/on T.V. with him holding a document stating he had achieved something.

 

 

This idea that we don't have to dance to the tune of the EU if we're out of it is nonsense. In the same way that progressive Californian law can shift the behaviour of national companies (because it's such a huge market why would you NOT make your product compliant) we'll have to make our products fit for EU law if we want to sell them there.

[cloggypop]

We should stay

change isn't good for old people

Whats fucking worse is that self serving opportunistic scruffy cunt Boris Ballbag has cost me money on my planned holiday next month

Exchange rate has gone to shit. Him and Gobshite Gove are fucking jokes playing fast and loose with my holiday to further their leadership credentials among the the xenophobic loons at local party local level. Fucking cunts

At least you don't have to go through the non-EU passport queue yet.

[cloggypop]

[Rico1304]

I think you may be getting the wrong end of the stick with regards what Stu is saying, if we come out of the EU we may have to repatriate a load of economically inactive oldies (or they'll come back) and the young determined immigrants who come here (who on average add to the national balance sheet) will be blocked from coming in.  That overall would be bad for the nation given the current set of policies which favour the old considerably - see the triple locked pension, free bus passes and T.V.. licences and protection of inheritance.[/size]

 [/size]

It’s notable that the 2.2million UK citizens resident in other EU member states who have the most to lose and most invested personally in the European project, don't get a vote.[/size]

 [/size]

I would also concur with him that without EU legislation workers and individual rights would have a wrecking ball taken to them by the current government, not to mention environmental legislation and other public interest sphere's.[/size]

 [/size]

Re our payments Norway pay 357.7 million euros a year for access to the single market. Multiply that with 12 and you will get a pretty good estimate of what access to the single market will cost Britain, about 4 billion Euros a year. [/size]Plus, as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the government will still have to implement EU directives, without having any say in how they are shaped.[/size]

[/size] 

The UK leaving the EU will be an absolute nightmare on so many levels. The bureaucracy and all other the attendant wrangling will be horrendous on both a macro and micro level. I would also envisage that in cutting off our economic ties with the EU, or even positioning ourselves as a junior partner, there will be an impossibility of even vaguely getting to set the terms in future deals between ourselves and the EU.[/size]

 [/size]

I would also ignore the PR guff about the renegotiation as I would imagine that Cameron didn’t really know what he was trying to negotiate, all he really wanted was something that got his face in the papers/on T.V. with him holding a document stating he had achieved something.[/size]

Excellent

[Stu Monty]

Fucking hell, Roni Size has got a lot to say on the EU!

[Delmar]

To me it's pretty simple (being not a Brit and working in non-EU state).

 

Two things, first, do you have the money?  The Norgies and and the Swissies do, both for their own and different reasons.  

 

First, oil funds.  If you have it, fine.  You can finance yourselves.  

 

Second, total disregard of where the money comes from and how, as long as it is there.  You can finance yourselves.

 

If not, it is more sensible to work within the system.  

 

Having said that, I dislike the EU.  From my perspective the UK should stay, and work to change the whole thing. Suggest something different, like move for the EU HQ to get from Brussels to Liverpool.  Equally random place, with more reasonable people...

[magicrat]

At least you don't have to go through the non-EU passport queue yet.

Half the time its fucking quicker these days

[Baltar]

To me it's pretty simple (being not a Brit and working in non-EU state).

 

Two things, first, do you have the money?  The Norgies and and the Swissies do, both for their own and different reasons.  

 

First, oil funds.  If you have it, fine.  You can finance yourselves.  

 

Second, total disregard of where the money comes from and how, as long as it is there.  You can finance yourselves.

 

If not, it is more sensible to work within the system.  

 

Having said that, I dislike the EU.  From my perspective the UK should stay, and work to change the whole thing. Suggest something different, like move for the EU HQ to get from Brussels to Liverpool.  Equally random place, with more reasonable people...

If history has taught us anything, it's that the UK can't change a damn thing about the EU. Certainly not their core values. But hey, Germany can tear up the rules on asylum and make up their own rules and then force it own the rest of the EU. But if  the UK tries to change its benefits system that would put EU citizens at a disadvantage, then the EU comes down like a ton of bricks on us.