Iran Accuses US and Israel

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Well, you are, as always, very sure of yourself, and thats admirable. I guess I find your views abhorrent as well, and I assure you that I do not consider them sub human (an awful turn of phrase). I believe that given the circumstances, Hamas does though, they don't appear to value life at all - doesn't matter, what ever the point of reference, we aren't going to agree.

 

I'd be really interested to hear which of my views you find abhorrent.

[zigackly]

I think it's a bit creepy to say Hamas doesn't value life whilst presumably believing that the Israeli government does. Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick? I find both organisations abhorrent.

[xerxes]

Well, understandably the West want Iran fucking dealt with, because they're essentially a failed state run by dangerous religious lunatics who fund terrorism across the world. Like many Muslim countries do.

 

A little harsh on Iran there Brendan.

 

Iran has been kicked around by the British, Russians and Americans since the 17th century. Iran has only been anything like independent since 1979 subsequent to which the west was very happy to arm Iraq in order that the two states would kill as many of each other’s citizens as possible.

 

Ahmadinejad likes to play to the gallery, but is a skilled and capable leader. It is hardly a failed state, it has the 25th largest GDP in the world, a young increasingly educated population of 75m, a sophisticated legislature and a cultural history which predates us by several hundreds of years.

 

Given that Israel is a nuclear armed state with a track record of aggressive destruction of all and any opposition Iran’s opposition to it is hardly surprising. What terrorism “around the world” is Iran funding? A fraction of what the US is financing I suspect. And Iran’s support for Hamas ( who themselves were originally funded by the Israelis to destabilise the PLO) is wholly rational as is their support for Palestinians in Lebanon.

 

Who wants Iran “fucking dealt with,” and what does that mean? A strong Iranian state is in the West’s interests. A destroyed state is not – see Iraq and Libya.

[Uncle_Meat]

[YOUTUBE]4pKMV6e5kEo[/YOUTUBE]

[Guest ShoePiss]

stu monty posted a youtube about the various check points Palestinians have to go through just to go about their daily life. It's really worth watching.

[TheHowieLama]

This might be out of place in such a lofty discussion of "ideology" but pause to understand that everyone who 'has', think the people who 'have not' are beneath them. Those who have in Israel are more in line and share more in common, with those who have in the States. Shocker- they also share more in common with those who have in the Middle East and those who have in China. And Africa. The religion thing is a centuries old three card monty game to keep the majority (who have not - read never will have) distracted for the good of the "team". It also lets otherwise good people get on the high horse to preach - which takes a lot of time and energy. And time and energy.

 

Its a small world and the uber-rich just had a party - and they all attended. And they are all business colleagues.

And friends.

[vanball]

I'd be really interested to hear which of my views you find abhorrent.

 

I have to admit that my use of the word views was in error - having looked through the thread again, i find that most of your posts are actually just responses to other posters' views, although your posts of Jan 26 re: headed for war and re: nukes were both pretty good and did express a view, not just a barb or comment.

 

But the rest is just pot shots and the use of Zionist Liars is pathetic. You are pretty sharp when people don't agree with your view of Israel, that is to be sure. Also, reference to lunatic right wing leaders in Israel - I don't necessarily disagree, they have had more moderate leaders than Bibi to be sure, but how about a little balance? You don't agree that the leaders of some of the Arab states and the leaders of Hamas are off the rails?

[RedRazor]

I thought that the diaspora all wanted to return to the land that some dead guy had 'promised' them. Why would they wish to live in any of the nations you mention? All this shit is because they claim the specific area they occupy to be their homeland. And the only people actively involved in ethnic cleansing at this time are the Zionists.

 

The Palestinians have a right to have a'siege mentality' because they are under siege. Whereas the poor, persecuted and friendless Israelis (backed to the hilt by the most powerful and militarily prolific nation on the planet, plus a lot of lesser western powers) have only their wealth, weaponry and their hatred of all Arabs to prop them up.

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking the fanaticism is only one way. Zionists hate as well as any Jihadist, and, thanks to the west, they do it with bigger guns.

 

I see.

 

However, please consider the following further points of interest:

 

in 1947 the Jewish population of Syria was 30,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Lebanon was 20,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Egypt was 75,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Iraq was 150,000

 

275,000 Jews living outside Israel in 1947 and what is left would just about fill a double decker bus.

 

I'm sure some Jews made a decision to up sticks and move to Israel. I'm sure that some Jews were 'strongly encouraged' to make the same decision. I'm also guessing that some never got to make a choice of any sort.

 

By contrast the Arab Muslim population of Israel (not including Gaza or the West Bank) continues to grow at a very healthy rate year on year. These facts do not support an argument that Israel is engaged in any form of ethnic cleansing, or, if they are, they are really bad at it.

 

I kid myself about many things such as

- if I comb my hair a certain way I look a little like George Clooney

- I look a lot younger when I have a suntan

- that I will win the lottery and so on.

I do not kid myself about the intensity of zealots and fanatics associated with any religious or political entity.

 

I do believe in my ability to interpret facts and draw conclusions from them. The alternative approach of "don't confuse me with facts - I've already made my mind up" I find difficult to understand at times.

 

That the Palestinians are under seige is also true. They have been fenced in and controlled by Israel for a significant period of time. I am not sure what solution is on offer any more. To be honest I don't really care bacause I do not see any solution that would be workable.

 

All we can do is wait for the decline of the US until it reaches a point where it unable to afford Israel the protection it currently receives. It may be another 50 years or 100 years but it will come to pass. What then will happen to the 5 million Jews in Israel? Same place, different day, different tragedy.

[vanball]

I see.

 

However, please consider the following further points of interest:

 

in 1947 the Jewish population of Syria was 30,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Lebanon was 20,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Egypt was 75,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Iraq was 150,000

 

275,000 Jews living outside Israel in 1947 and what is left would just about fill a double decker bus.

 

I'm sure some Jews made a decision to up sticks and move to Israel. I'm sure that some Jews were 'strongly encouraged' to make the same decision. I'm also guessing that some never got to make a choice of any sort.

 

By contrast the Arab Muslim population of Israel (not including Gaza or the West Bank) continues to grow at a very healthy rate year on year. These facts do not support an argument that Israel is engaged in any form of ethnic cleansing, or, if they are, they are really bad at it.

 

I kid myself about many things such as

- if I comb my hair a certain way I look a little like George Clooney

- I look a lot younger when I have a suntan

- that I will win the lottery and so on.

I do not kid myself about the intensity of zealots and fanatics associated with any religious or political entity.

 

I do believe in my ability to interpret facts and draw conclusions from them. The alternative approach of "don't confuse me with facts - I've already made my mind up" I find difficult to understand at times.

 

That the Palestinians are under seige is also true. They have been fenced in and controlled by Israel for a significant period of time. I am not sure what solution is on offer any more. To be honest I don't really care bacause I do not see any solution that would be workable.

 

All we can do is wait for the decline of the US until it reaches a point where it unable to afford Israel the protection it currently receives. It may be another 50 years or 100 years but it will come to pass. What then will happen to the 5 million Jews in Israel? Same place, different day, different tragedy.

 

I am sad to agree that it is a possibility - and I am glad that I won't be around to see it - also glad that an equal number of Jews do not live there.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

stu monty posted a youtube about the various check points Palestinians have to go through just to go about their daily life. It's really worth watching.

I had just been looking and reading about the checkpoints when I seen your post.

So I thought you might like to have a look at this regarding them.

 

 

A Israel Defense Forces checkpoint, usually called an Israeli checkpoint (Hebrew: מחסום‎, machsom, Arabic: حاجز‎, hajez), is a barrier erected by the Israel Defense Forces with the stated aim of enhancing the security of Israel and Israeli settlements and preventing those who wish to do harm from crossing. Most of the checkpoints in the West Bank are not located on the boundary between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory, but rather throughout the West Bank.[1]

In September 2011, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said there were 522 roadblocks and checkpoints obstructing Palestinian movement in the West Bank, up from 503 in July 2010. That number does not include the temporary checkpoints known as "flying checkpoints," of which there were 495 on average per month in the West Bank in 2011, up from 351 on average per month in the previous two years.

IDF checkpoints may be staffed by the Israeli Military Police, the Israel Border Police, or other soldiers.

[torahboy]

I see.

 

However, please consider the following further points of interest:

 

in 1947 the Jewish population of Syria was 30,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Lebanon was 20,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Egypt was 75,000

in 1947 the Jewish population of Iraq was 150,000

 

275,000 Jews living outside Israel in 1947 and what is left would just about fill a double decker bus.

 

I'm sure some Jews made a decision to up sticks and move to Israel. I'm sure that some Jews were 'strongly encouraged' to make the same decision. I'm also guessing that some never got to make a choice of any sort.

 

By contrast the Arab Muslim population of Israel (not including Gaza or the West Bank) continues to grow at a very healthy rate year on year. These facts do not support an argument that Israel is engaged in any form of ethnic cleansing, or, if they are, they are really bad at it.

 

I kid myself about many things such as

- if I comb my hair a certain way I look a little like George Clooney

- I look a lot younger when I have a suntan

- that I will win the lottery and so on.

I do not kid myself about the intensity of zealots and fanatics associated with any religious or political entity.

 

I do believe in my ability to interpret facts and draw conclusions from them. The alternative approach of "don't confuse me with facts - I've already made my mind up" I find difficult to understand at times.

 

That the Palestinians are under seige is also true. They have been fenced in and controlled by Israel for a significant period of time. I am not sure what solution is on offer any more. To be honest I don't really care bacause I do not see any solution that would be workable.

 

All we can do is wait for the decline of the US until it reaches a point where it unable to afford Israel the protection it currently receives. It may be another 50 years or 100 years but it will come to pass. What then will happen to the 5 million Jews in Israel? Same place, different day, different tragedy.

 

 

 

The establishing of a Jewish 'homeland', Israel, in 1948 would probably account for that sparesly occupied double decker bus no longer having Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq on its destination board. 'Guessing' why so many Jews left those countries at that time for any reason other than the creation of a new Zionist home can help you draw any number of mistaken conclusions. The fact is they left.

 

It is true that Arab Israelis live quite happily in parts of the Zionist state. Even though small percentages of civil service jobs are offered to Arabs and the health service spend in Arab regions amounts to about 1 or 2% of the overall budget, they can build schools and open businesses. Purchasing land proves difficult for them. Can't think why.

 

But I would still suggest that the squeezing of Arab land on the west bank and Gaza, combined with deadly military incursions by the IDF, would point to a policy of diminishing the Palestinian presence in those areas. Coupled with the installation of illegal settlers in those lands my 'conclusion' is that the Israeli government has a policy designed to diminish Palestinian poulations in Israel. Probably hoping they jump on that double decker you speak of and re-open the routes to Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq. Or even the USA.

 

Get the Palestinians over to America in numbers and they could fuck about with the demographic in way less than a hundred years. Imagine a President Al Jabari getting into the White House. That'd be a fun time to live through.

 

I accept that you are frustrated at, or indifferent to, the fact that a solution to the problem appears elusive. Yet your posts suggest a concern. If you see the problem then support those who offer solutions, providing they don't include genocide or the mass purchase of double decker buses.

[vanball]

The establishing of a Jewish 'homeland', Israel, in 1948 would probably account for that sparesly occupied double decker bus no longer having Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq on its destination board. 'Guessing' why so many Jews left those countries at that time for any reason other than the creation of a new Zionist home can help you draw any number of mistaken conclusions. The fact is they left.

 

It is true that Arab Israelis live quite happily in parts of the Zionist state. Even though small percentages of civil service jobs are offered to Arabs and the health service spend in Arab regions amounts to about 1 or 2% of the overall budget, they can build schools and open businesses. Purchasing land proves difficult for them. Can't think why.

 

But I would still suggest that the squeezing of Arab land on the west bank and Gaza, combined with deadly military incursions by the IDF, would point to a policy of diminishing the Palestinian presence in those areas. Coupled with the installation of illegal settlers in those lands my 'conclusion' is that the Israeli government has a policy designed to diminish Palestinian poulations in Israel. Probably hoping they jump on that double decker you speak of and re-open the routes to Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq. Or even the USA.

 

Get the Palestinians over to America in numbers and they could fuck about with the demographic in way less than a hundred years. Imagine a President Al Jabari getting into the White House. That'd be a fun time to live through.

 

I accept that you are frustrated at, or indifferent to, the fact that a solution to the problem appears elusive. Yet your posts suggest a concern. If you see the problem then support those who offer solutions, providing they don't include genocide or the mass purchase of double decker buses.

 

I have a number of friends from those countries and I am not mistaken as to why they left -and it wasn't to go to Israel - if you want to deny how Jews have been treated in those countries go ahead, but Red Razor's point is valid.

[Stu Monty]

Well, understandably the West want Iran fucking dealt with, because they're essentially a failed state run by dangerous religious lunatics who fund terrorism across the world. Like many Muslim countries do.

 

For a man who likes to lord it over the simpletons you don't half come out with a lot of stuff from The Ladybird Book of Geopolitics.

 

The West want Iran dealt with because it's not allied to them, that's the long and short of it. The West are cool with failed states. They are often the genesis of their failure (as in Iran). The West are cool with dictators and religious nutters, they are cool with torture and they are even cool with the funding of terrorism (even sometimes when it's against them as in Saudi's case). They do a lot of it themselves and are happy to have their allied lunatic states do it too.

 

I'll say this really slowly because you've missed it a few times now: The West do not want lots of progressive states that make sensible secular decisions because those decisions very rarely align with the interests of the West. They do not want democracy spreading because it leads to populations often under the boot of one of their puppet dictators voting for a guy that will look after their own nation, not the interests of the West. The fact that you can keep referring to Iran without even referencing how the the religious nutjobs got into power (US/UK forcing out a democratic, representative, secular leader and putting in a brutal puppet of their own) makes your argument look stupid.

 

Now, you're not an idiot so I'm guessing you already know this. That just leaves us dishonesty and a lack of bravery to come out and actually state your position honestly. That being that you don't mind brown babies being torched if they aren't on your side. It's the Fox news stance and, to be fair, makes you a lot less civilised than some of the people you would have slaughtered.

[Pidge]

So has anyone worked out what the flashpoint was that provoked these attacks? I really want to know as it's been a point omitted from most reports I have seen/heard (admittedly I haven't read much on it, but most print journos seem quite entrenched so not sure where that would get me...)

 

Every news story I've come across seems intent on balance and not reporting the attacks as sheer atrocities, but I haven't even seen an attempt at actual justification.

[stringvest]

That's precisely where big change is gonna come from. The US's reducing influence in the area, through the growing independence of neighbouring and nearby states, and it's overdue realisation that it needs to establish energy independence, as the cost - financial, political, military - of acquiring oil from the middle east (and the risk of not being able to acquire it) becomes untenable. And while nature abhors a vacuum, China absolutely loves them. They have appetite, and they have form, as it's a model being deployed in the subcontinent, and as the smoke dies down from the pro-democracy hullabaloo, these states will settle for non-secular leadership of varying degrees of fundamentalism. China finds it very comforting to deal with political structures such as this.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I have to admit that my use of the word views was in error - having looked through the thread again, i find that most of your posts are actually just responses to other posters' views, although your posts of Jan 26 re: headed for war and re: nukes were both pretty good and did express a view, not just a barb or comment.

 

I don't know how long you've been around this forum, if you lurked before you signed up, or if you're a reincarnation of a banned poster, but if you do a search you'll soon see that I do little other than tediously repeat my own opinions. On everything. All the time. Over and over. Knocking my views is only a click away.

 

But the rest is just pot shots and the use of Zionist Liars is pathetic. You are pretty sharp when people don't agree with your view of Israel, that is to be sure.

 

I'm sharp when people say something as ludicrous as Hamas' refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist is what everything hangs on. Only in the mind of somebody with a memory stretching back only five years could that be remotely true.

 

Also, reference to lunatic right wing leaders in Israel - I don't necessarily disagree, they have had more moderate leaders than Bibi to be sure, but how about a little balance? You don't agree that the leaders of some of the Arab states and the leaders of Hamas are off the rails?

 

You don't seem to get it. Calling Israel's leadership right-wing mentalists is adding balance. Everybody already knows about Hamas - or think they do - and it's all over the news about how they're a terrorist group. Well, in westernised countries, anyway.

 

What you don't see much of on the news is how Israel is a terrorist state which is operating a prison-state in Gaza. How they're illegally capturing land and expelling Palestinians. You don't see that on the BBC.

 

But I don't pretend to like Hamas. I've never liked Hamas and I doubt I ever will. Here's what I've said about it before:

 

I don't support Hamas. I don't support rocket attacks from Islamic Jihad. I don't support suicide bombing. In fact, I despise these actions of extremism. I can understand why, though. I can see why people would use whatever they can in the situation they are in and, most importantly, I can recognise the way Israel act is far worse, with far worse consequences.

[Section_31]

This thread is actually an interesting microcosm of how entrenched both sides are.

 

I think both regimes have their moderates and extremists, and when you're under attack - be it from an Israeli tank or a Hamas rocket - you're going to go with the extremists.

 

I think both sides have a right to some land and to live in peace on that land. The UN should have taken a stronger hand in the region from the word go, rather than simply setting up Israel and then basically let the US give it a shitload of F16s. it should have guaranteed its borders. It would have been protected, but would not have had the overwhelming firepower it does now.

[VladimirIlyich]

This thread is actually an interesting microcosm of how entrenched both sides are.

 

I think both regimes have their moderates and extremists' date=' and when you're under attack - be it from an Israeli tank or a Hamas rocket - you're going to go with the extremists.

 

I think both sides have a right to some land and to live in peace on that land. The UN should have taken a stronger hand in the region from the word go, rather than simply setting up Israel and then basically let the US give it a shitload of F16s. it should have guaranteed its borders. It would have been protected, but would not have had the overwhelming firepower it does now.[/quote']

 

This is surely another example of what a complete and utter waste of time,money and effort the UN actually is.

[xerxes]

There can be little doubt that a majority of Israelis would simply like to live in peace without living under the physical threat of rockets and bombs and the ideological threat of those who wish to deny their right to existence or pledge their extermination. Equally, most Palestinians would simply like to live with equal rights to their Jewish neighbours, in peace. Yet the assumption that Israel “wants” peace is misleading.

 

Since 1949 Israel has received $115bn in US aid alone. That level of support, and the infrastructure it provides for depends upon a war footing. Peace would bring no peace dividend- quite the reverse. Israel is currently receiving a minimum of $3.1bn US aid annually AND 2bn euros annually.

 

America has been happy to invest in this state of war too. Its oil interests, and those of the western world are significantly protected by having what amounts to a client state in the region, with formidable intelligence resources. Peace would see a massive reduction in US intelligence and capability in the Middle East. The significance of the Jewish vote in the corridors of power, as well as some key domestic states has seen dollars traded for votes and war in the middle east in a pretty cynical ongoing round of horse trading.

 

The “iron dome” is US funded as a prototype for a more sophisticated system to protect the US mainland from ICBM’s- an invaluable arena to road test new military technology.

 

Not that the US have been alone in using the Middle East for geo-political power plays, Russia too historically has done much the same for much the same reasons.

 

Looking to the future, the demographics are against the Israelis Directly creating a Gaza prison camp where a million and a half people in a population with the 7th highest population growth rate in the world where 75% of the population is under 25 is a human powder keg which will be impossible to contain.

[torahboy]

I have a number of friends from those countries and I am not mistaken as to why they left -and it wasn't to go to Israel - if you want to deny how Jews have been treated in those countries go ahead, but Red Razor's point is valid.

 

 

 

I'm not denying it, I'm just not 'guessing'. I don't doubt that Jews have been given a hard time throughout their history; from Pharoahs to the Romans to some of the neo Nazis that are active throughout Europe today, Jews attract bad deals. I just don't draw hard and fast conclusions from guesses.

 

But all the current proven evidence today leads me to conclude that the recipient of today's bad deal are the Palestinians, and they've got nowhere to fuck off to.

 

That reminds me - Golda Meier once said "We have a secret weapon in our battlle with the Arabs; we have nowhere to go". The Palestinians now have that same weapon.

[Tom R]

Can someone please tell me why I should have ever given a shit about these wankers in the middle east blowing each other up all the time? I'm just bored of it now to be honest.

 

I firmly don't give a shit. Maybe I should. I dunno. tell my why I should.

 

And why exactly is it always the top news story over here - and has been since I was small child - when I just don't give a fuck?

Because as far as I can tell these children have been at this shit for as long as I can remember, but if it wasn't pumped on to my telly every fucking day of my 34 years, then I would never even know it was happening, and frankly I would give even less of a shit.

[xerxes]

Can someone please tell me why I should have ever given a shit about these wankers in the middle east blowing each other up all the time?

Oil.

[Tom R]

There is no Palestinian Oil industry.

 

I still don't give a shit.

next!

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Bravura display of geopolitical understanding, chaps.

[Tom R]

This thread is actually an interesting microcosm of how entrenched both sides are.

 

I think both regimes have their moderates and extremists, and when you're under attack - be it from an Israeli tank or a Hamas rocket - you're going to go with the extremists.

 

I think both sides have a right to some land and to live in peace on that land. The UN should have taken a stronger hand in the region from the word go, rather than simply setting up Israel and then basically let the US give it a shitload of F16s. it should have guaranteed its borders. It would have been protected, but would not have had the overwhelming firepower it does now.

 

Can't we just agree that they're all wankers and they can kill each other as much as they fuckin well please?