'You should have stayed at a big club'

[TheHowieLama]

He was a 1 in 3 striker before he came here and has been the same for the last two years. That is an ok return - the fact that no one mentions is gets about two assists a year, not really a great partner.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

My suspicion is he's lost that first step that made him so dangerous.

 

Can't go by defenders as easily, and it also means they don't have to give him that bit of space he got before to take possession and make a move.

 

Think you are spot on. The injuries and the special training to prevent them has made him lose some pace. Not much maybe, but enough to disturb his play and not least his confidence.

[Section_31]

I think the problem is more mental, one might even say 'spiritual' with Torres. Whether he has lost pace or not I don't know, but he was never a pace merchant anyway, he was just an extrarodinary finisher. He just plays like someone with something on his mind at all times. He was like that for us, during the World Cup for Spain, and he's still like that at Chelsea. Maybe he just doens't like football as much as he used to? As Tony Soprano said: said "There's no geographical solution to an emotional problem."

[s(k)aturation]

Torres needs to be the number 1, as he was here and at Atletico. If Chelsea fucked Anelka and Drogba off and focused their play around him then I think he'd be great for them. I can't see that happening any time soon. Him being in and out of them team just escalates the problem.

 

Totally.

He's selfish.

And, from a centre-forward perspective, there's nothing wrong with that.

His off-field comments and on-field body language are another matter of course.

Rush only became the player he was when Sir Bob told him to be more selfish.

I actually think this era of "squad" is probably most detrimental on centre-forwards.

Having, like Chelsea, 3 blokes taking turns to be the marksmen doesn't work from an ego point of view.

And I think Chelsea have clearly suffered.

Torres was a bizarre signing for them IMO, clearly driven by the Roman Emperor.

But you wonder how many careers it fucks up.

[TheHowieLama]

I think the problem is more mental, one might even say 'spiritual' with Torres. Whether he has lost pace or not I don't know, but he was never a pace merchant anyway, he was just an extrarodinary finisher. He just plays like someone with something on his mind at all times. He was like that for us, during the World Cup for Spain, and he's still like that at Chelsea. Maybe he just doens't like football as much as he used to? As Tony Soprano said: said "There's no geographical solution to an emotional problem."

 

He's lost his mojo.

[piscinin]

He's playing just like he was here under Hodgson. The team aren't playing to his strengths so he knows he wont succeed. Hence, he won't succeed and the vicious cycle begins.

 

Chelsea need to get lampard out of the team ASAP if they want to get the best out of Torres. AVB did that a month or so back and hey presto Torres started finding the spaces which are the hallmark of his game. Then, luckily for us, AVB bottled it and is once again vascillating between new chelsea and old chelsea with predictable results.

 

The glorious irony is that just before he was sacked Ancelotti did an interview where he explained the problem with Torres was the way that Chelsea's midfield was setup is that they played for space to emerge late rather than early and this hindered torres. If ancelotti had stayed Torres would be playing like the benitez version, I'm positive.

[Redshadow]

Piscinin? Good Point there - "The Benitez Version" of Torres? Says it all; Rafa' basically IMO designed the player and super-striker that Torres became - Yes he burned him out in the end through constant Overuse and yet it's utterly maddening to see all that talent go to waste when ideally? He'd still be here completely what was originally the King's Grand Plan for LFC and partering Suarez rather than being replaced by him but without Rafa' Or a cleverer 'thinking' coach like him (Ala Ancelotti)? Torres is utterly useless.

 

Don't forget at Atletico Looooooong before he came to us? Torres scored nothing Like the number of goals he did for us between 2008-2010 averaging around 12-15 (at most) a season IIRR. Rafa' completely changed the way he played and designed the whole team to create that 'early space' he loves to charge into and score on the break usually at the end of swift counter attacks & prompted by precise passers like Gerrard/Alonso/Lucas as we had here to feed him and him alone as the focal point of our attack. It helps of course that that style fits hand in glove with the passing style used by Liverpool of Old and pioneered by Kenny as manager before and that Suarez is such an elegant touch player he fits well into that style to but there is the rub and what's wrong with Torres now.

 

Without a system designed specifically like that? He can't find the spaces on his own and he's far from strong enough as Suarez is to bully his way into such positions - For instance Torres would Not have scored that wondergoal Suarez did at Stoke as IIRR? Luis battered and pushed his way through about 4 defenders to get Into that position in the first place - Torres particularly in This form? Just would not - Could not have done that physically. Or not any more certainly. And it won't get better any time soon for him at Chelsea if you ask me - Their whole team is designred around the one thing Torres doesn't fit - Not counter attacking football For Torres or Passing football that he can adapt to (as he does with Spain or Did); They play a power game based around a physically powerful striker being the focal point upfront and athletic rather than artful passing players in midfield. Needless to say? Torres isn't that sort of striker and so cannot fit in that system; Nor will he ever.

 

Thinking about it though? Andy Carroll might though - In fact looking at it dispassionately? You could almost say that Carroll is playing at a club Made for Torres On the pitch and Torres at one Made for Carroll on the pitch and each is in the wrong place. As to Kenny being a jinx for Chelsea? It's nothing to do with Torres and is far from new - Kenny's now not lost to them in 13 games in Two spells as manager; That's far from unlucky any way you look at it. Quite the opposite in fact and Chelsea aren't the only side he has that sort of record against -It's not luck either that Kenny has these kind of stats - Far from it in fact - Kenny's not the second most successful manager in terms of English League Titles after You Know Who for nothing................

 

NB I would have him back here If Kenny thought it could benefit the team and only If we recieved a full and unreserved apology for the way he acted back then or something approaching it. I never felt right with the way he left and I've a feeling he didn't either from the way it looked like he'd cried after leaving us to the deliberate statements on joining Chelsea almost aimed at inciting our fans/diminshing our reputation in public? To the sense of unfinished business in that our attack would have been ridiculously skilled with him And Suarez and maybe people at other clubs looked at our (then) soon to be complete deal with Suarez, panicked and resolved to get Torres ASAP so as to stop such a concentration of striking power at Anfield? Due to all of that? I've Always felt we never Did hear the last of Torres and Liverpool FC; I still think that now...............

 

NBB Regarding Torres? As I said above - he needs the right type of Coach And Team to play in/for but With them? I've a feeling he's still capable of as much devastation as ever playing upfront once his confidence comes back. It's a question of motivation and confidence for him more than anything else. You can compare to Shevchenko all you like but he's a bit to young for such comparisms IMO. As someone else said earlier - Thank God for the (Apparent) Cliques and Jealousy of the 'Old Guard' at Stamford Bridge that effectively Forced AVB to Stop setting up the team around Torres and Mata (who was brought to be Their Gerrard re' Torres IMO). Without such self-defeating Jealousy, pettiness and divisive bitterness at Chelsea? They might just have had the Torres of late 2007, All 2008 by now; Or worse as far as we're concerned (better for them); Fortunately? That's not ever likely to happen now - Chelsea's own first team core have seen to that.....................

Edited December 2, 2011 by Redshadow

[TheHowieLama]

This Red Shady is just Imitating

So won't the Real Red Shady

Please stand up

please Stand up

please stand Up

[Redshadow]

TheHowieLama? I'm Still here - Look at the random capitals and liberal use of question marks/colons/full stops etc if you Don't believe me. Just thought I'd be bold and give the shadows a rest for a while..............

 

NB If you Still don't believe me? Well my Join Date's the Same no? Also, Look at all the red bars under my Vcash rating. That alone should show I'm Not lying about my identity. Still, is your decision what you choose to believe - To each their own.....

 

NB One more thing? It's RedShadow. And yes I know before you start in response to this.........

[Guest LFD]

So basically Redshadow you agree with me - swap Carroll for Torres and everyone is happy!

[TheHowieLama]

When you have a Niche don't give it away. Townshend did the windmill And smashed the guitar - he was the exception.

[Redshadow]

In a Nutshell LFD yes; I fully agree. I don't know if the Clubs/Kenny or an egotist like Roman Abramovich who will not want to be seen to be backing down so soon after taking Torres from us following a what 4 year? Pursuit will in order to facilitate such a Reverse Deal mind. And also? The issue of Torres has bothered me since he left - I never thought he was right down there or that he Should have left us in the first place and I've Always thought to this Day that deep down? He's regretted That decision since he made it and always will;

 

I just tried to articulate Why I think all this specifically in the post above is all - That and to detail what I think is behind his catastrophic loss of form - I'll tell you one thing though? The Torres of '07 - '10? Is Still there behind it all - I'm absolutely certain of that. He just needs the right man to motivate him enough and design the right team/tactical setup around him in order to bring it all rushing back is all. We should be thankful that man's Not at Stamford Bridge or even Near it right now or we would look very much the Mugs over That 'Swap' deal right now. In fact? Rafael Benitez hasn't got a another job since Inter removed him no?

 

Well, were He to be in charge down there? I'd Be worried about Carroll and gutted over losing That Torres (The Old El Nino) by now - I'm sure of it; Oh, and Roman? Would most probably be celebrating as Rafa' Would no doubt win them the CL somewhere down the line or certainly make them as consistent as we Once were in terms of being a Regular Real Threat for that Trophy above All others (and How it guts me to say that with All he did for us in the CL). Again though as above? Not a Chance of That happening so Nothing to worry about right now. We get Torres back, we don't. We keep Carroll/he Comes good or He leaves a failure. It matters not. Liverpool will survive and Kenny will drive us on to ever greater heights whatever happens because? The Club is all that matters in the end. Kenny knows........

 

NB The HowieLama? I haven't given it away (My Niche); Just Refined it a little so that my 'serious' posts are less ignored in future - TBH? I'm a Little Bit sick of expending effort on what are in the most part Very decent, articulate and well thought out posts and ending up in an argument about My particular writing style so I'll save This sort of thing? For informal discussions or posts I'm not to bothered about rowing over in future. Plus Ca Change as they say..................

Edited December 2, 2011 by Redshadow

[piscinin]

The fly in the ointment is of course that Carroll isn't very good.

[Redshadow]

Piscinin? Drogba looked utter shite when he first came here from Marseille; Well he did in the Premier League as opposed to any other competition anyway; "A striker that doesn't score goals regularly enough" was the term I think I remember hearing More than anything else with regard to That one IIRR. Think he was even viewed as something like a more skilful continental version of Heskey & just as ineffective in the long run If memory serves me right & I remember reading That? More than once as well in relation to him. Hmm, I Wonder how he turned out in the end? Point being you never can tell how a player will be once Fully developed - Lucas Leiva;The fulcrum of our midfield who we've just lost for the rest of this season at the very least thanks to an evilly timed injury is The perfect example.

 

Remember That draw with Fulham in 08/09? November 2008 wasn't it? The game where we had all of 2 Clear chances from Robbie Keane and Dirk Kuyt - Both saved? More to the point - the match that was in hindsight? Probably one of three things to cost us the title that year; (The others being Gerrard's disallowed goal v Stoke & Robert fcuking Green with That wonder save from Benayoun when we drew 0-0 with West Ham at Anfield the following week). Anyway - Lucas started that game in central midfield in place of the then Imperious Xabi Alonso who was at that time the Heart of Everything in the miiddle for us along with Mascherano & was booed off the pitch at games end after being forced to listen to ironic cheers when Alonso was brought on alongside him in the second half along with boos for the fact it was the traitor Mascherano being brought off For Xabi rather than Lucas which is ironic to say the least.

 

Oh, How we'd have laughed & Mocked back then if told that our whole Season and probable hopes of a trophy could be Very badly damaged by an injury to that Self-Same young Brazilian Midfielder and how we Did laugh/ignore Rafa' back then when he told us "some day, people will see just How good Lucas is". How right he was & what an absolute Beast of a player we now have on our hands - The best in his position without a doubt by now (and yes, that Includes Mascherano). In fact, I'd go further and say had 'That' day Rafa' spoke of come sooner? He might Still be our manager......................

 

Anyway, I think Chelsea are set up around bustling/physical 'power' strikers right now in the same fashion that the team was (and is) built for that 'type' of striker at Newcastle - Look at Carroll's replacements (& predecessors) there. Bustling, physically powerful with little of elegance about them but Plenty of presence, ball-holding ability & power. Almost identikit at Both clubs no? And maybe, just maybe Carroll is precisely what Chelsea are looking for Right now.

 

More than that, I'd go out on a limb and say Torres? The Old Torres is Certainly what We ourselves are missing to finish off our brilliant approach work & outstanding build-up play of recent months by putting some of the myriad of chances we've made away; And truth to tell? Would the loss of Torres really hurt Chelsea or that of Carroll bother us right now? It's not like either of them is pulling up trees at their respective clubs no? You never know in football is all I'm saying; In fact? I wouldn't be surprised if quietly and very much behind closed doors? Feelers are being or have been put out on both sides to explore the possibility of such a reverse switch becoming less speculation and more reality. I'll just end by saying stranger things have happened in football....................

Edited December 2, 2011 by Redshadow

[buffaloboy]

I don't know about Benitez redesigning how he played. I don't think it's really possible to take a 23 year old and completely redesign them. I think Benitez got very lucky with Torres. Yes he bought a 10-15 goal a season man and got a 20-30 goal man. I think Torres just loved us back then, he felt at home, he felt loved, he totally gelled with Gerrard and those 2 were magic a few years ago.

 

I think everything went right for Torres in 2007 and he hit the ground running which helped. His first league game v Chelsea he was awesome and scored a superb goal, went past Ben Haim like he wasn't there and whacked it past Cech. If Torres had not looked so good and after 4 or 5 games for us and he hadn't scored then it could have gone the other way. Torres might have looked like the player he is now. Who knows.

 

I don't think that Benitez made Torres, I think Liverpool FC made Torres. It was a perfect match and unfortunately it's very sad how it ended. The owners screwed the club and Torres was got at unfortunately and his head was turned. He thought Liverpool was a club in decline and Chelsea were title and Champions League challengers.

 

Also I don't think Benitez burned Torres out, he actually rested him a lot! He hardly ever played 90 mins for us. Benitez treated Torres as sparingly as he could but knew deep down that without him we were far weaker. It's ironic that a few years ago he kept breaking down with niggling injuries and missed many games and now he just warms the bench and has all the rest he needs.

 

Torres never had a great goals return at Atletico and he doesn't with Spain either. He definately doesn't at Chelsea. Only at Liverpool did Torres really explode with goals. I am not trying to belittle Benitez at all here but my view is that the man got lucky with Torres, more than making him the goal machine that he was. He just seemed to really take Liverpool FC to his heart after he joined and that saw Torres the player improve very much.

 

Also he scored about 4 times as many goals at Anfield than he did away. Maybe it was the actual stadium he loved and felt his best when he was there? It is normal for strikers to get more goals at home than away but not to the extent that Torres did.

[Redshadow]

Buffaloboy? I'll start by saying how I agree with you re Torres having his head turned momentarily I believe as well and you'd better believe that clearly, he's regretted this Ever since - Far more than he'll Ever say openly, that much is obvious. Oh and re' him with us? Yes, maybe Rafa' did rest him from time to time but with No quality backup barring Kuyt when the mood took him and nothing other than N'gog behind Him to come in when Torres did need a rest? In the end - Rafa' may not have intended to but yes, he Did burn out Torres through just using him and using him then? Using him again as our main striker; Think IIRR he at one point played the 07/08, 08/09 seasons as our main striker And the European Championships of 2008 in the middle And the Confedarations Cup at the end in Summer 09 without a Single prolonged rest!!! And you're telling me That didn't burn out a player as physically fragile as Fernando? Of course it did or if it didn't? It certainly contributed to it.

 

As to me? I also think that one of the injuries he recieved as a result of such overuse - When he broke down in the game v Benfica last year? (April 2010 - Won 4-1) was The turning point and the injury he's Never recovered from since. Had he been Fully motivated/as lucky as he was here at the start with Chelsea/under the right manager/All of those things Since then? Then he might have done but me? I think that injury is still affecting him a little and with the catastrophic loss of confidence he's enduring right now and lack of a 'champion' to manage him/build a team around him & defend him come what may? It's all formed one Huge black hole that's just sucked away All his ability as a striker right now resulting in the sad sight we've seen in our last 3 games at Stamford Bridge.

 

Despite all this? I maintain as always that with Fernando Torres? The Key to unlocking the potential he Still undoubtedly holds? Is getting the Right man to manage him and build the team around him once more - If Chelsea Were to trust in Torres enough to build everything around him, get rid of Anelka & Drogba as they Should now then? Were to make Torres and Him alone Their main man upfront? They'd reap the rewards soon enough - Thank God therefore they haven't done this and shown little sign of understanding just why it's gone so wrong for him with them. Always remember though? That could all change in a heartbeat............

 

Anyway - onto my main point? I say Benitez redesigned Torres game'? Because in my honest view? He Did. Nothing Torres did before coming to Liverpool or Since Leaving come to think of it and Nothing he did with Spain ever (except in certain circumstances) ever hinted at him as you say 'exploding' with goals in the manner he did - Successive Hat-tricks? 30 odd goals a season? Being The most Lethal Striker in Europe by a distance and coming second or third in the World Player of the Year Awards? When has he done that Anywhere except under Benitez?

 

Yes Torres may have loved the stadium at Anfield and just 'clicked' as it were in That first game against Chelsea (which had one of The most outrageously bad/biased [you decide] pieces of officiating I've Ever seen from Rob Styles in it). However - IIRR you can date Torres' 'explosion' with goals to Starting after One particular game with us - A game against Chelsea ironically enough at our new favourite Home away from Home, Stamford Bridge (February 2008; 0-0). Actually in hindsight? That match was the start of our good recent run down there. Anyway, In That particular game as I remember it? Rafa' deliberately used for the First time as our manager The formation that would come to define his reign with us after he'd gone (whether it was to praise him for designing That formation, getting the best out of Fernando and taking us So close to the Title the following Season or to get at him for selling Alonso 2 years later after which the formation fell apart).

 

Either way - That formation which so transformed Fernando Torres as a player? Was Rafael Benitez' 4-2-3-1 formation and it's No accident in my view that the same setup immediately then began to bring the best out of Torres and he scored thereafter like Never before (or since). The formation was the keeper, 4 defenders, then Masch' And Alonso with Gerrard in front of them linking with Torres upfront On His Own with Kuyt one side & Riera the other of him. This was the Only formation that allowed us to fit Masch', Gerrard, Kuyt, Alonso And Torres all into the same team and as I said? It's No accident he flourished thereafter - The system requires a lot of running and work from the lone front man (who Torres became) but in turn? Gives him the freedom of the front line, support from deep and massive supply lines he needs to wreck absolute havoc and plunde goals by the truckload.

 

Oh and something more? this is a system that Liverpool used All the time after the game I spoke of above and one that Chelsea have only come close to using once since he went there (with Mata back in September before the Old Guard got p*ssed off once more & the team went back to being built around them instead of Fernando) and one that Spain used in the Final of Euro 2008. It's no coincidence that Both times? Torres looked absolutely lethal, scored and created goals and chances galore. Since that system in games involving Torres was Never used before he was under Rafa' and since it's use seems to be the Only occasions when Torres has done well in teams? What's wrong with saying Rafa' redesigned Torres game because when you look at it like I have here? It's quite clear to see that he Did.............

Edited December 2, 2011 by Redshadow

[BringbackBiscan]

Do you understand what a question mark is for mate?

[Redshadow]

Yes.

[buffaloboy]

Good point Redshadow, we agree on some things. I totally agree that Benfica (h) in 2010 was where Torres of old was last seen. Since then it hasn't been the same player. Not for Spain in World Cup 2010, not for Liverpool in 2010-11 or Chelsea 2011.

 

Rafa did come up with the brilliant 4-2-3-1 formation which suited that team so well. We smashed Real Madrid, thrashed Villa and destroyed United playing that way. It brought the best out of the whole team and of course Torres was amazing as the lone striker.

 

I do differ though in I believe that Benitez came across that formation by luck rather than judgement. I don't think Benitez knew he was going to play Torres with Gerrard as a support striker until it evolved later on. When Torres was first bought he certainly wasn't playing that way.

 

Benitez played Gerrard right midfield for over a season so back then he didn't see the potential of Gerrard playing the link position. I firmly believe Benitez came across the 4-2-3-1 formation by more luck than judgement but it worked! You need luck at times. Once it was the favoured formation by god it worked very well.

 

As for Benitez burning out Torres, well you have a point but he was a LFC player, Benitez wasn't about to say have 4 months off buddy because of the confederations cup and the Spain games. I still don't think he burned him out. He rested him in a few games and took him off almost always before the end of games and I remember a few games where he had him as sub and put him on 12 mins to see what he could do. He won a game at Pompey like that. I remember a game away at Newcastle when Torres was really on fire and he didn't have him as a sub. He totally rested him. He could have played if he really had to I'm sure.

 

That 4-2-3-1 formation wasn't made by Benitez either, it was used long before Liverpool played it.

[Redshadow]

Thanks for reading my posts Buffaloboy unlike So many others on here who just want to argue about How I write them mate. Maybe that will change now with the recent adjustments I've made to my writing style. We shall see.................

 

As you say, we are in agreement on the Benfica Injury - If Anything destroyed the Old Torres? That was it. However another point I made that I'm not sure if you got or not? Is that I personally? Believe the so-called Old Torres? Could have been brought back to his maximum level long since by now; Well, with a mixture of confidence, careful management and luck as well as belief from the manager And player he could have been anyway. Indeed despite subsequent events? I believe we have already seen the beginnings of the Old Torres coming back Twice now this year. Once when Kenny first took over in his Final Scoring Burst for Liverpool and once when AVB Constructed the Entire Chelsea side around him for a few games. That it all fell to pieces and he then went back into his shell Both times for different reasons is immaterial - He looked happy And deadly both times; In short? The Old Torres was starting to feel his way back to life Both times I feel and it is Still IMO only a matter of time before someone Does perform the Oracle and bring him back permanently though maybe not whilst He's at Chelsea now - I think it's gone To Far now down there and he'll Have to leave them simply due to the Joke he's now become down there.

 

That development incidentally is one that enormously vindicates not just our fans stance for standing up to the media and everyone who made out with all their shite like we didn't even exist/were Nothing compared to that Pathetic Little Flag Waving Dump were clearly Determined to use his exit to destroy our reputation and put the Clubs They feel should be up there in our place in the eyes of the public. Remember it all? "he's at a big club now/no hiding places/no team for him to carry"? When they said that he'd effectively been at a small county club ala Birmingham/Sunderland etc and now he was Entering the land of the big boys? I do - Well the joke's on You now Press W*nkers - Wonder whose the laughing stock now? Because one things for certain? It isn't us - Just maybe Chelsea should look in the mirror once in a while and when they do? They'll see we're laughing At them not with them. The Emperor Has No Clothes is an apt Fairy Tale for Roman Abramovich here because right now in Torres' Case? Everyone can see it bar him & from Media darling's? Chelsea are now the laughing stock of our National game - All I can say? It's taken bloody long enough......................

 

As to the rest of your post? Again, some good points although I differ with you there but hey! That's what Forums are For no? Yes, I remember the destruction of Real Madrid (most particularly Gerrard's volley that crashed past Casillas like a Missile soon after the Second Half began......Just as the commentators were remarking on how quiet the game had become LOL followed by Dossena clipping a shot past a by-then battered & bruised Casillas (who made more saves that night than he did in 2 seasons IIRR) under the disbelieving eyes of the Kop for the first of two goals in a mad, mad week); I remember to us following up that glorious night by Eviscerating the Mancs in their own stadium on the Saturday - A win containing if I'm not mistaken The surreal sight of the Manc's conceding a penalty at Home And having a man sent off in the same game!! One that further was rounded off by a contender for Miss of the season by Stevie & Dossena celebrating in shocked amazement after lobbing an equally startled Van Der Sar to consign United's 'British Record for Clean Sheets' (TM The Gentlement of Her Majesty's Press) To The Dustbin of History. Finally in that utterly bizarre and glorious fortnight of our recent history? I remember us utterly pulverising Villa the Following Sunday and starting the long downfall of Martin O'Neill there (another thing that gave me immense satisfaction since my levels of dislike for that man and his posturing at Rafa'? Were Really starting to worry me at the time).

 

Also 'That' Week? Didn't it start us off on something like a 3 month scoring spree where we hit 3/4 goals for something like 9 games in a row - I remember the Match Report on this very site of that Villa game saying we had a 'vibe' about us and Many newspaper reports at the time describing us in Machine like fashion as "Rolling Over" anyone & anything that got in our way - We were only let down by our defence over that season in terms of Winning the Title which is ironic given what Rafa's strength really was - Well right now? I'd go so far as to say slowly but surely? We're reclaiming that vibe & aura we had back then - Greatly helped it must be said by consiging any notion of Chelsea challenging seriously for trophies to the History Books and before long? I think we'll be reliving and indeed bettering (by finishing the job......More than once if I know Kenny) the Halcyon days of that glorious Spring of 2009.

 

As to other matters? Maybe Rafa' Did come across the formation by luck rather than Judgement - What argues against that conclusion however? Is the fact that as mentioned above in my earlier nove.....ahem Large Post? That we began using it at Chelsea away without Torres - As hard a game back then as can be imagined and we only moved Torres Into said role within that system gradually IIRR. Ergo - I thought back then and think now? That Rafa' was thus quite clearly fine-tuning it as it turned out? Almost certainly For Torres himself. I Do agree about the Gerrard support striker bit being by accident though - I think Rafa' just happened across that by chance since if memory serves me? He before settling on that position for him? Played Gerrard everywhere from Right Back to Right wing, taking in defensive And various attacking midfield positions on the way before Finally settling on where Stevie could do maximum damage to the opposition and minimum to us with his occasional wasteful losses of possession or bad backpasses. Again though? I Do think Rafa' was Looking as he designed that system for a way to accomodate All his best players at the time. Agree once more about How lucky we were that the system eventually worked out as well as it did and Christ it did some damage when it did 'Click'!!

 

And to round off? Yes I agree that Rafa' Tried to rest Torres when he could but due to lack of quality cover and (one of the causes of That) a complete pair of a*seholes being in charge who could in No way rectify that problem or the damage it did to our ambitions? Rafa' was gradually forced bit by bit? To play Torres more, more, more and ever more until eventually? He played virtually Every game he Was fit for barring the odd obscure/unimportant cup matches and in the end against Benfica? We paid the price - As I've said elsewhere re' Lucas' Development*? Chance worked against Rafa' there & Liverpool FC as a whole in the end thanks to Torres injury; If he'd stayed fit when we played Atletico given How well we played particularly in the Second Leg? I think we'd have comfortably beaten them over the Two legs and we'd Certainly have battered Fulham in the UEFA Europa League Final - Then? With a trophy in the cabinet at the end of such an awful season as That one was? Do you really think they Could have got rid of Rafa' as a result?

 

More to the point - With Rafa' winning a trophy as he almost certainly Would have done with Torres fit at the Very end of 2009/10? Do you Really think a club like us would have gone within a Mile of "Woy Bloody Hodgson the Owl with his Vewy Clever Engwish Style Management, revolutionawy 1-10-0 tactics and that awesome defensive record of a goal (conceded) a game at least?" I think not. Still Had That happened? We may Still have been recovering for them now because I for one doubt Tom Hicks would have even Thought of going near the exit and giving Rafa' the satisfaction of outstaring him as it were - He's Far to much the egotist for that and the standoff that Would have resulted had that happened? Could not only have done massive damage to an already half-dead club by then but also? Might have scared off NESV as they were back then. Oh well - every cloud and all that.................

 

NB I never said the formation was Made by Rafael Benitez - Just used That Way in particular so as to benefit Torres and with Our players set up that way. And since players like Alonso (but not Mascherano as Lucas is now showing) are virtually unique? And there were/are Very few like Torres at his best and None like Stevie at His best? The formation Had to be unique in that particular way with Those particular players used That way as only We had a collection of talents like that at that time - Although since then both Real Madrid (2011 onwards) and Internazionale (2008-2010) Have Both played something similar to what we did. I doubt That was/is by accident either; At the times in question? Look at who the manager of both clubs was. Coincidence? I think not.....................

[Brownie]

Rafa Rafa Rafa blah blah blah.

[Heinze]

How shit is his hair?

[ChrisM]

Whenever I make the futile attempt at actually reading 100% of a Redshadow post all I get in my head is a mental image of Anders Breivik sat at a computer, typing.

[WaltonRed]

Torres is shit.

 

I never thought I'd say it but its the truth, he's gone as that world class player and it'll never ever come back.

 

Chelsea will cut there losses on him soon

[navbasi]

@GuillemBalague

 

Torres has got no intention of going back to Liverpool. Liverpool has got no intention to bring him back. I dont think you can change that.