negativity towards Steven Gerrard?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I see why you'd say that, but first half he was running after balls, making tackles back at their midfield and getting on the ball as much as pos. He did invariably fuck it up at that point and admittedly, 2nd half he looked like his head had dropped completely.

 

I just hope it doesn't end up him fucking off down the Easy Lancs in the summer. I'd be gutted if we did lose him, as I think everyone would and fucking should be. Let's get behind him.

 

He's 2nd to none in effort produced in the name of this club. I really don't get where you're coming from by the way Sanchez

 

He won't go to City.

 

I won't be gutted if he went. Like I wasn't gutted all the great players before him went. Players come and go. I would hold him in good memory and thank him for his service but as soon as he signed for another club, I'd move on.

[betterman]

3 or 4 games of poor form then maybe I would agree with this, however nearly 5 months of shite does not warrant anybody any leeway. We owe him nothing. We owe nobody anything.

 

Very short sighted. I would dread to think where the club would be without him. This season alone proves what a pile of shit we are when he is injured or playing even though he is injured. some of the things people saying about him just about says everything about where we find ourselves.

[Curly]

He won't go to City.

 

I won't be gutted if he went. Like I wasn't gutted all the great players before him went. Players come and go. I would hold him in good memory and thank him for his service but as soon as he signed for another club, I'd move on.

 

I suppose it should always be like that, but there will always be the odd one or two in your lifetime, who, if they left, would upset you a bit. For me that's Stevie G and Robbie. The rest I feel the same as you though.

 

Very short sighted. I would dread to think where the club would be without him. This season alone proves what a pile of shit we are when he is injured or playing even though he is injured. some of the things people saying about him just about says everything about where we find ourselves.

 

Well said mate. Repped

[Redshadow]

Betterman - I don't think we're a pile of shite with him injured - I think we coped well against Spurs without him and that just MAYBE - the reason our players are so bad without him at present is as they know he'll be able to come on and pull their arses out the fire - when they KNOW he's not available for a while as they did at Stoke and against Spurs (and against United at Anfield last season and this) - they pull their fingers out and produce performances off their own back.

 

Those performances and the points they secured and the wins they gave us show me that just perhaps not only do we need a NEW captain capable of motivating the TEAM to win and not to please Gerrard so that only HE plays well and everyone relies on him as is normal at present but also that maybe we DO have the depth to cope without him but the problem is one of mentality. If you're on crutches for 10 years and then find you're able to walk, it's going to be hard walking yes? But think how much HARDER it will be if you know you can go back to the crutches the minute something goes wrong? Well if someone took the crutches away and NEVER gave them back then you'd damn well learn to walk again as you'd HAVE to - It's the same with this team. Someone NEEDS to take away the crutch that is Gerrard and MAKE them rely on themselves regardless of his presence or otherwise in games. The results might just surprise us................................

[dirty_sanchez]

I see why you'd say that, but first half he was running after balls, making tackles back at their midfield and getting on the ball as much as pos. He did invariably fuck it up at that point and admittedly, 2nd half he looked like his head had dropped completely.

 

I just hope it doesn't end up him fucking off down the Easy Lancs in the summer. I'd be gutted if we did lose him, as I think everyone would and fucking should be. Let's get behind him.

 

He's 2nd to none in effort produced in the name of this club. I really don't get where you're coming from by the way Sanchez

 

Really? How so? I just think that the captain should be leading by example. Considering that Gerrard dishes out bollockings during the match, it's not going to gee up the other players if he's dawdling about.

[The 5th Benitel]

I said it in my big post earlier - AWS said it in a different way in his very good post to and I'll say it again in another big post now. This club is SUFFERING from 'Gerrard-Dependency''. He is TO involved as the Captain - he tries to take it ALL on his shoulders to get us out of the crap and the team think that to - hence when he's On the pitch, the others All look to him for corners, free-kicks, moments of magic etc and Never show their own abilities (and believe me, players like Lucas, Mascherano, Aquilani, Rodriguez, Riera, Torres and Agger DO have considerable ability of their own) and feel/are stifled as they expect the captain to Want to do everything for them and think he'll get angry if they don't let him and if he's marked out of the game? They don't bother thinking for themselves and hoof mindlessly.

 

Gerrard's damned if he does and if he doesn't - I think he EXPECTS to do it (save us from trouble) each time he plays and he LIKES being seen as the saviour but at the same time he takes EVERYTHING bad that happens to the club on the pitch to heart and thinks it's HIS fault and thus he can't function properly as Captain as he's either constantly trying to pull the club out the mire OR worrying that the terrible times on the pitch are ALL his fault. The Only exception to this was last season when we had what I call a Mature team - we had for the first time since the 1990 season a team of 'captains' who were willing and able to trust their OWN abilities collectively and ignore Gerrard unless Totally necessary - they had other ways to win through the team organised around Xabi, Riera, Torres, Benayoun, Mascherano AND Gerrard - but you see? Without Gerrard - that team COULD work anyway and Still win matches - WITH him it was so robust as a unit anyway that he could give FULL vent to his destructive abilities in the final third and with Torres he used that freedom to the full to form a truly fearsome partnership - our team was VERY well set up for last season - and much of the one before; But alas, not this season.

 

This time out - As we haven't replaced Alonso yet with Aquilani as the NEW fulcrum of our midfield (and believe me, he DOES have the ability to do that) then the only midfielder allowed to offer the passing ability and destructiveness to defences that Alonso offered is Gerrard - Aquilani's not settled in the team yet and Lucas is not ALLOWED to attack as he was taught to do as a young footballer for some unknown reason. And I think IF we keep relying on Gerrard it will only get worse as he STILL thinks he should save us all the time and STILL takes our struggles to heart as that's the type of man and captain he is; Gerrard's a very good captain when the team is functioning well as he can use his great abilities to the full within a settled team structure to inspire the players around him to FAR greater achievements than the sum of their parts but when things go wrong? That's when HE goes wrong as a player as he continually forgets himself as the leader and tries to solve ALL our difficulties on his own and because of his generally moody, self-blaming character - he takes Everything that goes wrong to heart - it weighs him down, his performances suffer, the team who look to him as we do at present suffer to and the whole club is dragged down ON the pitch as a result.

 

The solution? The answer is to do what we did over the last 2 seasons AGAIN from February 2008 when Rafa' first organised the personnel at his disposal around Alonso and Masch' into the 4-2-3-1 formation that has served us so well since but which does NOT work without an Alonso or an Aquilani as the passing fulcrum to supply Gerrard, the forwards and the wingers to do damage as they can; Rafa' NEEDS to get this formation working again as he's obviously not going to change it - he LOVES controlling the ball, being solid and controlling the game and this formation allows us to do all three And be devestating in attack If done correctly. Therefore Rafa' needs to build Another team that is 'mature' and not dependent on Gerrard or Torres as we had in the last 2 seasons - he needs to TRUST Aquilani and put him where Alonso was for a RUN of games whatever happens (although I suspect as he's that type of player, Alberto will probably play the same role as Xabi did but further forwards ala Scholes, Bergkamp or Lampard) he needs To TRUST Gerrard and Torres to learn to work with Alberto and he needs to TRUST Masch' on his own to anchor the midfield as without Xabi' - that formation can still work but will need only 1 holding midfielder from now on.

 

We need to build Another team of 'captains' with Gerrard just one among many stars not THE star fulls stop - that didn't work for United with Bryan Robson in the 80's and it won't work for us now - remember how we operated back then? NO-ONE was bigger than the club, EVERYONE'S position was under constant threat and NO-ONE was kept beyond their sell-by date. I'm not saying Stephen's past his sellby date now but he IS unchallenged for a position in the team which is wrong and sometimes I get the impression the club are eager to please him above all else which is just wrong. If he's lazy on the pitch as last night - it's because he's not MADE to sweat and work for his position and that NEEDS to change soon. Once he's done that and sorted out the heart of our midfield, I think as in the last 2 seasons - the other departments of the team will start to function effectively once more - our attack will be able to score more and more easily, our defence will not be under CONSTANT pressure from the midfield losing the ball as they have been this season and our midfield will KNOW what they're doing and who they're playing with as they don't at present - then Rafa' can be back to the position he was in at the end of last season (problem is it might take a Full pre-season next year for him to do this sorting out) with a settled midfield, defence and attack and he can improve areas of the team as and when but now?

 

For now, That hole in our midfield REALLY needs sorting out and this is what I think Rafa' should do to fill it - It's what I think he WILL do as well. I just don't think he believes at present that Aquilani can play game after game after game in OUR league non-stop yet as Xabi once did - Don't forget back in 2004 he did EXACTLY the same thing with Alonso to - he eased him in slowly and how many times was Xabi on the bench when we thought he should be playing and we shouted for Rafa' to play him ahead of Diao/Hamann? More than a few I think. Basically it's a TRUST issue - we Need to build another team that Trusts itself to play and dominate as we did last season and Win lots without Gerrard (or Torres if necessary) and we need to do it quick as the longer we rely on Gerrard the worse we'll be in his current malaise (it doesn't help that his legs have started to go with age either), we need to build a team where we TRUST Aquilani and Masch' to run the midfield as Xabi and Masch' did with Lucas as backup and we NEED to do it soon - however as I said before, only one man can do all this so it's over to Rafa' now.........................................

 

 

I'm NOT reading all that but i WILL say that the REASON we've had to depend on HIM is that we WOULD have lost loads of games if he hadn't taken control of them. This is BECAUSE most of the PLAYERS we've brought in ARE solid enough players but DONT have the talent to WIN football matches.

[Redshadow]

All I said in that BIG post - Benitle is basically that Gerrard takes to much to heart when things go wrong, tries to solve everything AND thinks trouble is all His fault - thus ending up ineffective when things go wrong as they are now. I then said Gerrard can only function well as captain in a GOOD team that is FULL of 'captains' who can think for themselves. I said we HAD a good team like that last season but without Alonso the whole midfield and formation Rafa' had designed stopped working and thus the solution is to build ANOTHER team like that; I think you're wrong BTW - I think a LOT of our players have the talent to win football matches with or without Gerrard - they just don't have the MENTALITY to do it without him as they're afraid to act independently of him as the likes of Hyppia and Alonso did last season regularly.

 

This leads to their talents being stifled in the hope of Stephen's talents rescuing us time after time in trouble during games and they are Then unfairly branded as 'shite' or 'talentless footballers' when often the opposite is true but the TEAM'S current mentality doesn't allow them to prove just how good they are/can be. This time, the new team would be centred around Aquilani and Masch' as the previous team had Masch' and Alonso at it's heart. However, I then said I think the reason Rafa' hasn't done this yet is because he doesn't yet TRUST Alberto and Javier to do this (dominate midfields together) due to Alberto's short time here and his rawness with regard to the English game/his ability to play consecutive games (I pointed out to that Rafa' did PRECISELY that with Alonso to in 2004 - resting him regularly, remember?). Finally I concluded that it was up to Rafa' now to act and do what is needed.

 

Concise enough?

[betterman]

Betterman - I don't think we're a pile of shite with him injured - I think we coped well against Spurs without him and that just MAYBE - the reason our players are so bad without him at present is as they know he'll be able to come on and pull their arses out the fire - when they KNOW he's not available for a while as they did at Stoke and against Spurs (and against United at Anfield last season and this) - they pull their fingers out and produce performances off their own back.

 

Those performances and the points they secured and the wins they gave us show me that just perhaps not only do we need a NEW captain capable of motivating the TEAM to win and not to please Gerrard so that only HE plays well and everyone relies on him as is normal at present but also that maybe we DO have the depth to cope without him but the problem is one of mentality. If you're on crutches for 10 years and then find you're able to walk, it's going to be hard walking yes? But think how much HARDER it will be if you know you can go back to the crutches the minute something goes wrong? Well if someone took the crutches away and NEVER gave them back then you'd damn well learn to walk again as you'd HAVE to - It's the same with this team. Someone NEEDS to take away the crutch that is Gerrard and MAKE them rely on themselves regardless of his presence or otherwise in games. The results might just surprise us................................

 

I will reply tomorrow when i have time!! Good Evening Gentlemen!

[The 5th Benitel]

All I said in that BIG post - Benitle is basically that Gerrard takes to much to heart when things go wrong, tries to solve everything AND thinks trouble is all His fault - thus ending up ineffective when things go wrong as they are now. I then said Gerrard can only function well as captain in a GOOD team that is FULL of 'captains' who can think for themselves. I said we HAD a good team like that last season but without Alonso the whole midfield and formation Rafa' had designed stopped working and thus the solution is to build ANOTHER team like that; I think you're wrong BTW - I think a LOT of our players have the talent to win football matches with or without Gerrard - they just don't have the MENTALITY to do it without him as they're afraid to act independently of him as the likes of Hyppia and Alonso did last season regularly.

 

This leads to their talents being stifled in the hope of Stephen's talents rescuing us time after time in trouble during games and they are Then unfairly branded as 'shite' or 'talentless footballers' when often the opposite is true but the TEAM'S current mentality doesn't allow them to prove just how good they are/can be. This time, the new team would be centred around Aquilani and Masch' as the previous team had Masch' and Alonso at it's heart. However, I then said I think the reason Rafa' hasn't done this yet is because he doesn't yet TRUST Alberto and Javier to do this (dominate midfields together) due to Alberto's short time here and his rawness with regard to the English game/his ability to play consecutive games (I pointed out to that Rafa' did PRECISELY that with Alonso to in 2004 - resting him regularly, remember?). Finally I concluded that it was up to Rafa' now to act and do what is needed.

 

Concise enough?

 

 

I think the difference was that Alonso is a good ENOUGH player to take hold of the game so we saw him do that. Hyypia as well. However, PLAYERS like Kuyt, Lucas, Mascherano, Riera etc just DONT posses the skills to do it som Gerrard has TO. Aquilani might be ABLE to but defo wont if he's sat on his HOOP for 90 mins. One thing we know for definate is that the PAIRING of Lucas and Mascehrano definately can't.

 

No one IS saying those players are talentless it's just that their talents are limited. Why dont WE see them playing like Gerrard when he's not THERE? It's because they're not capable of doing it, just like Gerrard isn't capable of PLAYING like Messi.

 

This season more than any other has shown what would have happened if Rafa had INHERITED a team that didn't include Gerrard. It's not Gerrard making US rely on him, it's the lack of geniune match winning quality that MEANS we have to rely on him. Now and again we've brought in the odd BIT of quality like Alonso and Torres and they've COMPLEMENTED his game. The rest of the time the others are not good enough for A top 4 team SO he's had to win matches on his own.

[diego]

Here is today's lesson in TLW 101 Orthodoxy.

 

The relative success of the past five years is down to Gerrard, not the manager.

 

The relative failures of the current season is down to the manager, not Gerrard.

 

It follows that the relatively few success of the Houllier years were down to Gerrard and the failures were down to the manager.

 

The fact that LFC have not won the PL since Gerrard appeared on the scene has nothing to do with him.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Very short sighted. I would dread to think where the club would be without him. This season alone proves what a pile of shit we are when he is injured or playing even though he is injured. some of the things people saying about him just about says everything about where we find ourselves.

 

How is it short sighted?

 

We've actually coped well in games without him this season. In fact I'd go as far as saying we look more relaxed when he's been out. We miss Torres more as his goals to games ratio is awesome this season.

[Curly]

Here is today's lesson in TLW 101 Orthodoxy.

 

The relative success of the past five years is down to Gerrard, not the manager.

 

The relative failures of the current season is down to the manager, not Gerrard.

 

It follows that the relatively few success of the Houllier years were down to Gerrard and the failures were down to the manager.

 

The fact that LFC have not won the PL since Gerrard appeared on the scene has nothing to do with him.

 

BINGO!!!

[Paul]

Rafa is playing him when he is unfit

 

of course Gerrard will say he can play cos he loves the club but it is as clear as day that Gerrard doesn't feel right

 

why we rushed him back today fuck knows

 

he needs to be rested and sent for his groin op before he does himself some proper damage

 

can't believe that some people can't see this

 

Coming back and playing early after being injured means you're shit though. Xabi was similarly shit for two seasons.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Except he obviously wasn't.

[Curly]

How is it short sighted?

 

We've actually coped well in games without him this season. In fact I'd go as far as saying we look more relaxed when he's been out. We miss Torres more as his goals to games ratio is awesome this season.

 

We miss them both. We miss Xabi. We miss the team that was going out and twatting teams for fun at the back end of last season. We haven't scored more than 2 goals in a match since we bummed Hull 6-1, but that was in September. I've gone off the point here. The point is, it's not (just) Stevie's fault. Also, Nando has looked, and has had criticism on here for looking, like he couldn't be fucked as well

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Coming back and playing early after being injured means you're shit though. Xabi was similarly shit for two seasons.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Except he obviously wasn't.

 

If he's not fit though Paul he shouldn't be telling Rafa he is.

[Hooch]

"Yeah but he's not fit though"

 

I've heard this all season. Seriously, when the fuck is he going to be fit again? What is the injury he's supposed to be carrying if he's "unfit"?

Are we just going to use this excuse for every piss poor effort Gerrard puts in this season?

[harryo63]

Here is today's lesson in TLW 101 Orthodoxy.

 

The relative success of the past five years is down to Gerrard, not the manager.

 

The relative failures of the current season is down to the manager, not Gerrard.

 

It follows that the relatively few success of the Houllier years were down to Gerrard and the failures were down to the manager.

 

The fact that LFC have not won the PL since Gerrard appeared on the scene has nothing to do with him.

your not aloud to say that. blasphemy

[Brownie]

His season has been totally wrecked by injury. Paul makes a great point; very similar to Alonso a couple of years ago.

 

Expect many on here to be wanting Gerrard sold and replaced by someone else in the summer. Gerrard will be great next season.

[The 5th Benitel]

Here is today's lesson in TLW 101 Orthodoxy.

 

The relative success of the past five years is down to Gerrard, not the manager.

 

The relative failures of the current season is down to the manager, not Gerrard.

 

It follows that the relatively few success of the Houllier years were down to Gerrard and the failures were down to the manager.

 

The fact that LFC have not won the PL since Gerrard appeared on the scene has nothing to do with him.

 

If you include this one the last 5 seasons have heraled one FA cup win and one decent title challenge from a position where we were already realistically out of the running in January.

 

I suspect most people think that if we'd been without the player who has clearly been head and shoulders above all but a couple of the other players in that time. In fact, if you take Gerrard out of Istanbul and the FA Cup final do you still think we'd have won?

 

I think these worries are amplified by the fact Rafa throws him in when clearly not fit and that our tactics seem to centre around him or Torres producing a bit of magic.

 

If there's one player in our league who deserves to win a title but hasn't it's Steven Gerrard. Your last sentence seems to suggest you think we should look at someone who has clearly been out best player in the last decade being somehow at fault for that. Even for our fans, that takes some beating.

[Brownie]

If you include this one the last 5 seasons have heraled one FA cup win and one decent title challenge from a position where we were already realistically out of the running in January.

 

I suspect most people think that if we'd been without the player who has clearly been head and shoulders above all but a couple of the other players in that time. In fact, if you take Gerrard out of Istanbul and the FA Cup final do you still think we'd have won?

 

I think these worries are amplified by the fact Rafa throws him in when clearly not fit and that our tactics seem to centre around him or Torres producing a bit of magic.

 

If there's one player in our league who deserves to win a title but hasn't it's Steven Gerrard. Your last sentence seems to suggest you think we should look at someone who has clearly been out best player in the last decade being somehow at fault for that. Even for our fans, that takes some beating.

 

'Must not blame the manager, must find someone else instead.'

 

You would have thought these people may have learnt their lesson from the Alonso situation. 'He was shite and Rafa was right to sell him'. He wouldn't improve us now at all, would he?

 

Apparently it's a decent idea to sell your best players.

[Walton Park]

Steven Gerrard is having a bad season in terms of playing and injuries as well. He is also playing in a fucking woeful team. I think he can be excused I think. Everyone has a bad few month some time in their career.

Still shouldnt of fucked off before the end of the Stoke game though.

[The 5th Benitel]

'Must not blame the manager, must find someone else instead.'

 

You would have thought these people may have learnt their lesson from the Alonso situation. 'He was shite and Rafa was right to sell him'. He wouldn't improve us now at all, would he?

 

Apparently it's a decent idea to sell your best players.

 

 

And then not play the player you brought in to replace them.

 

I honestly cant believe that people are having a go at Gerrard to defend Rafa. Without him you take away the two trophies we've won. We'd have been out in the group stages in the 05 CL and been FA cup runners up. That's dicounting the amount of league points he's won us by doing things no other player in our side is capable of.

 

I honestly think if Rafa turned up for one of our games in a manc top and took a shit on The Kop people would find a way to defend him for it.

[Paul]

If he's not fit though Paul he shouldn't be telling Rafa he is.

 

I'm sorry mate, but I disagree. That's exactly what I want our captain and best player to do; he wouldn't deserve to wear the armband if he wasn't chomping at the bit and asking to play because he knows he's still better - even half-fit - than anyone else we've got in attack. It's Rafa's job to say, "Sorry Steven - I'm not picking you".

 

There's no way Rafa has seen him train and is unaware of what his fitness levels are. The bottom line is that Rafa has left us absolutely threadbare up front and he's so desperate that he'll pick him regardless (as he's also done with Torres this season). I can't say I blame him for that, mind you; my problem is that he's got us into this position in the first place.

[djb1980]

Form is temporary class is permanent.

 

Gerrard will turn it round because he is good enough. When he was coming back from injury last season other players where in better form and he didn't have to be 100% in the first few games after injury. This year when he is coming back he is struggling because others are not in great form. He is 100% committed. Thats why he is playing earlier than he should because he is desperate to get us out of the bad run.

 

What people dont understand about Gerrard is he is not the big hard character he is made out to be. He is a worrier. He is hurting this season because of our bad form. He is trying to do something about it but is struggling. He need support not people seeing him as a scapegoat. He has given us so many good moments so at leat allow him to come through this.

 

He is the 1st to know he isn't at the normal level he sets but he will be back.

[Yozzer]

Just to point out Redshadow, why the fuck do you use an obsurd amount of capitals in all your posts?