Israel - A Rant

[TheHowieLama]

We know that won't happen, the other Arab countries realized that a decade ago, so we don't have to worry about Hamas' future then. 

 

What do you think of Hamas' current counter proposal - more performative theatre?

[Jurgen Knows]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

What do you think of Hamas' current counter proposal - more performative theatre?

Can you post it on here so we all know what we’re talking about? 

[Jurgen Knows]

5 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

We know that won't happen, the other Arab countries realized that a decade ago, so we don't have to worry about Hamas' future then. 

Why do you think it won’t happen? Is it not fair? Or does it just prevent the Zionists from ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank?

[TheHowieLama]

4 minutes ago, Jurgen Knows said:

Can you post it on here so we all know what we’re talking about? 

Hamas has proposed a ceasefire plan that would quiet the guns in Gaza for four-and-a-half months, during which all hostages would go free, Israel would withdraw its troops from the Gaza Strip and an agreement would be reached on an end to the war.

According to a draft document seen by Reuters, the Hamas counterproposal envisages three phases of a truce, lasting 45 days each. Hamas would exchange remaining Israeli hostages they captured on Oct. 7 for Palestinian prisoners. The reconstruction of Gaza would begin, Israeli forces would withdraw completely, and bodies and remains would be exchanged.

According to the document, during the first 45-day phase, all Israeli women hostages, males under 19 and the elderly and sick would be released, in exchange for the release of Palestinian women and children from Israeli jails. Israel would also withdraw its troops from populated areas during the first phase.
Implementation of the second phase would not begin until the sides conclude "indirect talks over the requirements needed to end the mutual military operations and return to complete calm".
The second phase would include the release of remaining male hostages and "the withdrawal of Israeli forces outside the borders of all areas of the Gaza Strip".
Bodies and remains would be exchanged during the third phase. The truce would also increase the flow of food and other aid to Gaza's desperate civilians, who are facing hunger and dire shortages of basic supplies.
"People are optimistic, at the same time they pray that this hope turns into a real agreement that will end the war," said Yamen Hamad, a father of four, living in a UN school in Deir Al-Balah in the central Gaza Strip.

 

https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4838916-hamas-proposal-calls-135-day-ceasefire-israeli-withdrawal-talks-end-war

 

[Jurgen Knows]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

Hamas has proposed a ceasefire plan that would quiet the guns in Gaza for four-and-a-half months, during which all hostages would go free, Israel would withdraw its troops from the Gaza Strip and an agreement would be reached on an end to the war.

According to a draft document seen by Reuters, the Hamas counterproposal envisages three phases of a truce, lasting 45 days each. Hamas would exchange remaining Israeli hostages they captured on Oct. 7 for Palestinian prisoners. The reconstruction of Gaza would begin, Israeli forces would withdraw completely, and bodies and remains would be exchanged.

According to the document, during the first 45-day phase, all Israeli women hostages, males under 19 and the elderly and sick would be released, in exchange for the release of Palestinian women and children from Israeli jails. Israel would also withdraw its troops from populated areas during the first phase.
Implementation of the second phase would not begin until the sides conclude "indirect talks over the requirements needed to end the mutual military operations and return to complete calm".
The second phase would include the release of remaining male hostages and "the withdrawal of Israeli forces outside the borders of all areas of the Gaza Strip".
Bodies and remains would be exchanged during the third phase. The truce would also increase the flow of food and other aid to Gaza's desperate civilians, who are facing hunger and dire shortages of basic supplies.
"People are optimistic, at the same time they pray that this hope turns into a real agreement that will end the war," said Yamen Hamad, a father of four, living in a UN school in Deir Al-Balah in the central Gaza Strip.

 

https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4838916-hamas-proposal-calls-135-day-ceasefire-israeli-withdrawal-talks-end-war

 

I’d say it is fair enough. Don’t you think?

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, Jurgen Knows said:

Why do you think it won’t happen? Is it not fair? Or does it just prevent the Zionists from ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank?

 

I don't make any judgement on either the 2002 or the 2013 plans - the Saudis led the second initiative so they must feel it is untenable - I trust their judgement, don't you?

[Jurgen Knows]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

I don't make any judgement on either the 2002 or the 2013 plans - the Saudis led the second initiative so they must feel it is untenable - I trust their judgement, don't you?

The Saudis, as far as I know, have always maintained that the Palestinian state should be within the 1967 borders and have East Jerusalem as its capital. Fair enough if you ask me.

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Jurgen Knows said:

I’d say it is fair enough. Don’t you think?

 

It's not up to me but I think including anything that either party knows is a non starter is not helpful.

 

There are going to be Israeli troops there. Forever. There is going to have to be land swaps for a two state solution to come to pass.

That is my opinion.

[Jurgen Knows]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

 

It's not up to me but I think including anything that either party knows is a non starter is not helpful.

 

Why is that a non starter in your view?

 

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

 

There are going to be Israeli troops there. Forever. There is going to have to be land swaps for a two state solution to come to pass.

That is my opinion.

Why is that so?

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Jurgen Knows said:

The Saudis, as far as I know, have always maintained that any Palestinian state should be within the 1967 borders and East Jerusalem as its capital. Fair enough if you ask me.

 

Nobody is asking you - Hamas refused the 2013 initiative outright.

 

Here's our boy Haniyeh:

 

Hamas refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist and claims all the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian. It never accepted the Arab plan which was first presented in 2002.

“To those who speak of land swaps we say: Palestine is not a property, it is not for sale, not for a swap and cannot be traded,” Haniyeh said.

Haniyeh said the rival Palestinian Authority ruling the West Bank, headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, was to blame for inspiring the softer Arab position because it accepted the need for land swaps with Israel.

 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Jurgen Knows said:

 

Why is that a non starter in your view?

 

Why is that so?

 

The fact they were told that was a non starter is why I think that.

 

Why will Israeli troops always be in what will be in some form Israel? I dunno.

[Jurgen Knows]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

 

Nobody is asking you - Hamas refused the 2013 initiative outright.

 

Here's our boy Haniyeh:

 

Hamas refuses to recognise Israel’s right to exist and claims all the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian. It never accepted the Arab plan which was first presented in 2002.

“To those who speak of land swaps we say: Palestine is not a property, it is not for sale, not for a swap and cannot be traded,” Haniyeh said.

Haniyeh said the rival Palestinian Authority ruling the West Bank, headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, was to blame for inspiring the softer Arab position because it accepted the need for land swaps with Israel.

 

You ask me then you say nobody is asking me … weird ..

 

Anyhow, the Zionists can accept the Saudi peace proposal if they want peace. Let Haniyeh refuse then and see what happens …

[Carradona]

The Irish women basketball team has refused to play their European qualifying fixture against Israel. Sinn Fein Leader, Mary Lou McDonald, calling out Israel and their decades of impunity and the need for a complete ceasefire on Sky News earlier.

 

Proud of the Irish.

[skend04]

Say what. There's no evidence been forthcoming against the UNRWA save for the less than honest Israeli government and IDF?

 

Colour me shocked.

 

[Jurgen Knows]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

The fact they were told that was a non starter is why I think that.

 

Why will Israeli troops always be in what will be in some form Israel? I dunno.

So it’s not unfair, but it’s still a non-starter because the Zionists say so …

 

Sounds like one party is trying to force its will on the other. 

[TheHowieLama]

I have not made a judgement on fair.

 

Generally wars are full of stuff like one party trying to force their will. So yea.

[Jurgen Knows]

8 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I have not made a judgement on fair.

 

Generally wars are full of stuff like one party trying to force their will. So yea.

War. Not peace talks.

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Jurgen Knows said:

War. Not peace talks.

 

Correct. And the end of war comes through negotiations. Those always include tradeoffs - so a "proposal" that knowingly includes something that will not be accepted is performative.

 

I can save you some time here.

The eventual agreement that ends the conflict - peace if you use that word - will not be something you see as fair or just.

[Jurgen Knows]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

The eventual agreement that ends the conflict - peace if you use that word - will not be something fair or just.

Fixed that for you. 
 

There has been no justice since 1947 so nothing new there.
 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Jurgen Knows said:

Fixed that for you. 
 

 

Unfortunately you haven't fixed anything.

[TheHowieLama]

Speaking to Al Jazeera, Hamas spokesperson Muhammad Nazzal said the group wants Qatar, Egypt, the United States, Turkey and Russia to act as “guarantors” to ensure correct implementation of the terms of the deal, should it be approved. He added, however, that the group is not willing to negotiate on the terms of the proposal.

“Among these details, none can be compromised,” Nazzal said. “The Israeli killing machine must be brought to a halt. We wish to see [the] Israeli occupation forces’ withdrawal from the Gaza Strip entirely. Our response is realistic and our demands are reasonable.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/7/whats-in-hamass-135-day-proposal-for-a-gaza-truce

[Jurgen Knows]

Sounds very realistic and reasonable.

[Jurgen Knows]

6 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Unfortunately you haven't fixed anything.

Look carefully.

[Carradona]

4 hours ago, Carradona said:

The Irish women basketball team has refused to play their European qualifying fixture against Israel. Sinn Fein Leader, Mary Lou McDonald, calling out Israel and their decades of impunity and the need for a complete ceasefire on Sky News earlier.

 

Proud of the Irish.

Predictable Israeli rhetoric coming out now that it is no secret the Irish are antisemitic. 

 

Fuck off, lying gobshites.

[Bjornebye]

6 minutes ago, Carradona said:

Predictable Israeli rhetoric coming out now that it is no secret the Irish are antisemitic. 

 

Fuck off, lying gobshites.

 

Invaded people standing with invaded people.