Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Numero Veinticinco]

In what way are trans, queer, and non-binary people a gift to the world? Any more than anybody else anyway. 
 

[Rico1304]

15 minutes ago, Pidge said:

I agree it definitely seems like the most important consideration.

 

Seems like he took the groundbreaking approach of discussing it with his wife before making it public knowledge.

 

 

"Given the long-term consequences of the clinical interventions at issue in this case, and given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases where the authorisation of the court should be sought prior to commencing the clinical treatment."

 

Not sure healthcare should be decided by legal experts, rather than medical ones, but overall a step in the right direction. Hopefully it leads to sensible, clear guidance and responsibility placed back in the hands of clinicians and NICE.

The point is kids arent able to make a decision of such importance at a young age, coupled with the fact the treatment is experimental.  If you’re old enough, go for your life. 

[Pidge]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

The point is kids arent able to make a decision of such importance at a young age, coupled with the fact the treatment is experimental.  If you’re old enough, go for your life. 

Not quite. That's pretty much what I agree with at this stage, but there is still scope to get treatment, but it would require a court approval. Which is not something I overall agree with in principle. If the courts want to help direct guidance, fine. But it's not their role to essentially impose legislation, or make clinical decisions.

[Rico1304]

4 minutes ago, Pidge said:

Not quite. That's pretty much what I agree with at this stage, but there is still scope to get treatment, but it would require a court approval. Which is not something I overall agree with in principle. If the courts want to help direct guidance, fine. But it's not their role to essentially impose legislation, or make clinical decisions.

Considering part of the judgement was pretty damning on the treatment itself, the standard of clinical treatment I’d be surprised if any kid taking it to court was granted permission.  
 

They were particularly interested in the fact the clinic didn’t know how many kids referred were autistic or had any mental health diagnosis.

 

I think we are in violent agreement.  Don’t fuck up kids.  
 

The chair of mermaids tells a hilarious story about how puberty blockers left her son with micro penis meaning his transition surgery was much more complicated... 

[Pidge]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Considering part of the judgement was pretty damning on the treatment itself, the standard of clinical treatment I’d be surprised if any kid taking it to court was granted permission.  
 

They were particularly interested in the fact the clinic didn’t know how many kids referred were autistic or had any mental health diagnosis.

 

I think we are in violent agreement.  Don’t fuck up kids.  
 

The chair of mermaids tells a hilarious story about how puberty blockers left her son with micro penis meaning his transition surgery was much more complicated... 

Pretty much, yeah.  I'd think considering the court times and costs involved there will be little chance of any patient even seeking approval. Haven't read the full judgement.

[Moo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148

 

A bit more information on the court ruling yesterday.  

I hadn't realised that one of the claimants was someone basically regretting their decision to start puberty blockers at a young age.  I was interested to note that the article mentions "thousands of girls referred" and wondered why it didn't mention boys and presumed it was because the claimant had been one of these girls, which is probably the case.  But it did lead me to do a bit more reading which appears to show that the number of (gender assigned at birth) girls referred massively outnumbers boys.  

I wonder why this would be? Would this statistic itself not pose further questions?

Going to do a bit more reading.

[Moo]

22 hours ago, Numero said:

In what way are trans, queer, and non-binary people a gift to the world? Any more than anybody else anyway. 
 

Even if you don't take into account cultural implications etc, I think the kind bravery Page showed in 2014 and then again yesterday is certainly a gift.

Elliot Page is a gift, to many many people.

 

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Moo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148

 

A bit more information on the court ruling yesterday.  

I hadn't realised that one of the claimants was someone basically regretting their decision to start puberty blockers at a young age.  I was interested to note that the article mentions "thousands of girls referred" and wondered why it didn't mention boys and presumed it was because the claimant had been one of these girls, which is probably the case.  But it did lead me to do a bit more reading which appears to show that the number of (gender assigned at birth) girls referred massively outnumbers boys.  

I wonder why this would be? Would this statistic itself not pose further questions?

Going to do a bit more reading.

Deborah Soh is worth a read. 
 

They clinics were asked by the courts to provide stats on the success of their treatments. After

all they’ve been doing this for 9 years. They declined as they said they’d not been peer reviewed. Judge said he didn’t mind. They declined. Wonder why? 

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, Moo said:

Even if you don't take into account cultural implications etc, I think the kind bravery Page showed in 2014 and then again yesterday is certainly a gift.

Elliot Page is a gift, to many many people.

 

It wasn’t about Page. It was the general point that trans, queer, and non-binary are a gift to the world. I mean, it’s a serious question. I’m queer, and no cunt wants to unwrap me. I don’t like it because it gives an ‘other-ness’. People are people. Some of them are great. Some are cunts. Queers and trans and non binary people are just people. Any suggestion that their queerness or transness or non-bineriness is a gift rather than just another state of being, seems quite bizarre to me. 

[Rico1304]

17 minutes ago, Moo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148

 

A bit more information on the court ruling yesterday.  

I hadn't realised that one of the claimants was someone basically regretting their decision to start puberty blockers at a young age.  I was interested to note that the article mentions "thousands of girls referred" and wondered why it didn't mention boys and presumed it was because the claimant had been one of these girls, which is probably the case.  But it did lead me to do a bit more reading which appears to show that the number of (gender assigned at birth) girls referred massively outnumbers boys.  

I wonder why this would be? Would this statistic itself not pose further questions?

Going to do a bit more reading.

Oh, and don’t you think it’s sex observed at birth? 

[Rico1304]

36 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Deborah Soh is worth a read. 
 

They clinics were asked by the courts to provide stats on the success of their treatments. After

all they’ve been doing this for 9 years. They declined as they said they’d not been peer reviewed. Judge said he didn’t mind. They declined. Wonder why? 

Abigail Shrier has a book out about it too. Plenty of interviews with her about. 

[Jack the Sipper]

1 hour ago, Moo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148

 

A bit more information on the court ruling yesterday.  

I hadn't realised that one of the claimants was someone basically regretting their decision to start puberty blockers at a young age.  I was interested to note that the article mentions "thousands of girls referred" and wondered why it didn't mention boys and presumed it was because the claimant had been one of these girls, which is probably the case.  But it did lead me to do a bit more reading which appears to show that the number of (gender assigned at birth) girls referred massively outnumbers boys.  

I wonder why this would be? Would this statistic itself not pose further questions?

Going to do a bit more reading.

I've got next to no insight into the whole transgender issue myself, but, if true, at first glance it would appear to be a (subconscious?) reflection of a society in which being male is seen as more desirable than being female. I think that much is still true for sections of our society if not generally. 

 

I can also see why that would be something of a thorny subject to debate, for more than one reason.

 

Of course, I could be talking bollocks, and there may well be a completely unrelated reason as to why more girls want to be boys than vice-versa.

[Moo]

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Oh, and don’t you think it’s sex observed at birth? 

As opposed to gender? 

I saw AFAB and looked at what it stood for to try to understand what I was reading, and didn't initially see a differentiation, should have just said assigned at birth as I now understand it.

My apologies, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Moo]

2 hours ago, Numero said:

It wasn’t about Page. It was the general point that trans, queer, and non-binary are a gift to the world. I mean, it’s a serious question. I’m queer, and no cunt wants to unwrap me. I don’t like it because it gives an ‘other-ness’. People are people. Some of them are great. Some are cunts. Queers and trans and non binary people are just people. Any suggestion that their queerness or transness or non-bineriness is a gift rather than just another state of being, seems quite bizarre to me. 

I read it as an expression of pride.

[Rico1304]

4 minutes ago, Moo said:

As opposed to gender? 

I saw AFAB and looked at what it stood for to try to understand what I was reading, and didn't initially see a differentiation, should have just said assigned at birth as I now understand it.

My apologies, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I don’t think so, sex is observed, not assigned. They look at the genitals and that’s it.  There’s no sorting hat deciding what the kid is.  In fact, it’s usually before then at the scan. 

[Section_31]

1 hour ago, Jack the Sipper said:

I've got next to no insight into the whole transgender issue myself, but, if true, at first glance it would appear to be a (subconscious?) reflection of a society in which being male is seen as more desirable than being female. I think that much is still true for sections of our society if not generally. 

 

I can also see why that would be something of a thorny subject to debate, for more than one reason.

 

Of course, I could be talking bollocks, and there may well be a completely unrelated reason as to why more girls want to be boys than vice-versa.

This was Rowling's take on it in that now infamous blog.

 

 

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.

The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018,  American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:

‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’

Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’

Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

[Moo]

8 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I don’t think so, sex is observed, not assigned.  

I read "assigned" and found the stats (2019-20) on gids.nhs.uk

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

16 minutes ago, Moo said:

I read it as an expression of pride.

*shrug* I guess. I mean, I would probably have as much of a problem with somebody saying it about any sub-group. White people are a gift to the world. Muslims are a gift to the world. People will three nipples are a gift to the world. It’s all arbitrary shit to me. I dunno. I am a cunt, so I’ve bestowed that gift upon the Earth. 

[Jack the Sipper]

13 hours ago, Section_31 said:

This was Rowling's take on it in that now infamous blog.

 

 

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.

The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018,  American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:

‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’

Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’

Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

Thanks for that, an interesting read. I knew that she's rattled a few cages in this area, but hadn't read this blog before, or anything that really details her reasoning.

 

I have to say that the argument implied here (that social media and peer pressure have been the main drivers in girls wanting to transition) isn't really what I was guessing at; I was thinking more about age-old socially-conservative and religious factors. Social media isn't immune from these pressures of course, although I'm not sure how my theory would explain why, prior to the social media explosion over the past decade, it was more common for boys to want to transition. 

 

Still, we both seem to agree that, contrary to the belief that people wanting to transition are 'born into the wrong body', social/external pressures do play a part -which would explain the uproar among some people.

[Rico1304]

1 hour ago, Jack the Sipper said:

Thanks for that, an interesting read. I knew that she's rattled a few cages in this area, but hadn't read this blog before, or anything that really details her reasoning.

 

I have to say that the argument implied here (that social media and peer pressure have been the main drivers in girls wanting to transition) isn't really what I was guessing at; I was thinking more about age-old socially-conservative and religious factors. Social media isn't immune from these pressures of course, although I'm not sure how my theory would explain why, prior to the social media explosion over the past decade, it was more common for boys to want to transition. 

 

Still, we both seem to agree that, contrary to the belief that people wanting to transition are 'born into the wrong body', social/external pressures do play a part -which would explain the uproar among some people.

You can’t say ‘born in the wrong body’ anymore. 

[Jack the Sipper]

33 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

You can’t say ‘born in the wrong body’ anymore. 

Really? I thought it was the accepted, almost obligatory term in some quarters, albeit not in inverted commas. I do plead guilty to not keeping myself up to date with the correct phrases to describe people and situations, which seem to change on an almost daily basis depending on who you speak to.

[Rico1304]

5 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

Really? I thought it was the accepted, almost obligatory term in some quarters, albeit not in inverted commas. I do plead guilty to not keeping myself up to date with the correct phrases to describe people and situations, which seem to change on an almost daily basis depending on who you speak to.

Don’t be daft, it’s impossible to keep up and the advice only changed a couple of weeks ago. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

20 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Don’t be daft, it’s impossible to keep up and the advice only changed a couple of weeks ago. 

I find it interesting that a white, middle aged l, middle class, middle management conservative sort is so up to date and, some might say, preoccupied with this sub act to the point you know all the advice, the rulings, the way the wind blows on sayings, etc. 

[Lario]

Everybody's that not like me, I just call them "weirdos".

[Numero Veinticinco]

15 minutes ago, Lario said:

Everybody's that not like me, I just call them "weirdos".

There’s a great thread for discussing faggots, if you’re interested?