Tinkering and Resting

[silverlining]

I really thought Lucas had an alright game, granted he made a few mistakes, but so did everyone else, but its understandable when you take into account the conditons the game was played in. Made a few great tackles (although he gives so many needless free kicks away), and thought his passing was pretty good, which was seconded when I watched the game again last night after I got in. Would have scored had it not been a great block from Distin.

 

Still think he is off to Italy in January or the summer though.

 

Fucking hell, I really hope so.

 

I fucking hate him.

 

Yes, yes, I know that's not exactly constructive, but my feelings about him have been clear for ages, so I won't bother.

[Carra_is_legend]

I wouldn't say the lad who started the thread is moaning - he's just seeing something which happened (players moved from 1st XI to the bench, so not fully rested) and said he'd prefer to see them given the night off.

 

I used to come on this site quite often, but it really pisses me off these days as people are not allowed to make comment if it can be percieved in anyway negative - "we won, therefore you can have no opinion other than Rafa and the team is fucking marvelous". It seems to me unless somebody wants to take part in a massive wankfest, rubbing each others cocks saying how we're the greatest team ever to grace football, they get critisised.

 

Thats how I see it as well. The lad created the thread with a very valid point (in my opinion). I don't agree with his opinion and I have told him that - not along the lines of "We won so shut the fuck up" like plenty of others have done.

 

It seems that any question against Rafa is posted, they get criticised left, right and centre - just because we are winning.

[macca1979]

It's simple, Rafa rested Keane and Riera because they had knocks. EVERYONE knows that is a fact.

 

Rafa rotated Agger so that Sami could cope with Crouch, which he did very well I thought.

 

Rafa rotated Masch I think because he's been at the Olympics to begin with, came back late, then got injured. Either way Lucas played well last night so it was a good call.

 

I find it hard to imagine why anyone would criticise Rafa for his selections in this game, he pretty much got it spot on.

 

As for saying that playing 20 - 30 minutes requires similar energy or effort as playing a full game, that's just ridiculous to be honest.

 

As someone has already said, 26 from 30 points, if that is Rafa at his worst, I can't wait for him to find form.

[Barrington Womble]

Thats how I see it as well. The lad created the thread with a very valid point (in my opinion). I don't agree with his opinion and I have told him that - not along the lines of "We won so shut the fuck up" like plenty of others have done.

 

It seems that any question against Rafa is posted, they get criticised left, right and centre - just because we are winning.

 

exactly. there seems very little room for anyone who wants to take a middle ground and say OK we got 3 points, but because of whatever, i thought we got a bit lucky.

[Guest TK-421]

 

I used to come on this site quite often, but it really pisses me off these days as people are not allowed to make comment if it can be percieved in anyway negative - "we won, therefore you can have no opinion other than Rafa and the team is fucking marvelous". It seems to me unless somebody wants to take part in a massive wankfest, rubbing each others cocks saying how we're the greatest team ever to grace football, they get critisised.

 

We've made such a good start to the season that most times I see criticism of Rafa or the team it's just bouncing off me. It's kind of hard to take in, if you know what I mean, but I see your point.

 

Back to the opening post. If the suggestion is that players need to be left out of the squad altogether to benefit from rest then I disagree. They can rest on the bench, and if we're in trouble they can be used to try and turn the game around. Take last season's 1-1 against Birmingham at Anfield, for example. Without Torres, who came off the bench and conjured up a goal out of nothing, we would probably have lost that game. Nando rescued us a point, but we wouldn't have had the option if he was left out of the squad altogether.

 

I think some people are scraping the bottom of the criticism barrel this season.

[Carra_is_legend]

Back to the opening post. If the suggestion is that players need to be left out of the squad altogether to benefit from rest then I disagree. They can rest on the bench, and if we're in trouble they can be used to try and turn the game around. Take last season's 1-1 against Birmingham at Anfield, for example. Without Torres, who came off the bench and conjured up a goal out of nothing, we would probably have lost that game. Nando rescued us a point, but we wouldn't have had the option if he was left out of the squad altogether.

 

Also, if the knocks are not serious and if Rafa thinks "Ideally, it would be nice for them to sit out this game but if the game needs them, I can put them on to the pitch since their injuries are not too serious", then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

If we are winning 3-0 after 60 mins, there is no need to bring them on. If we are drawing 0-0 or losing, bring them on and get a winner or an equaliser. There is absolutely nothing wrong in doing this.

[shanks59]

Some people are only happy when they are miserable.

 

Be fair, forums were designed for moaning .. :whistle:

[Red Phoenix]

The thread does have a "I have no qualmsesma" tag too, so you can't really complain that it's worthless.

[Kurt]

Be fair, forums were designed for moaning .. :whistle:

 

Have you ever posted without the use of the "whistle icon"?

 

 

 

 

 

:whistle:

[shanks59]

Have you ever posted without the use of the "whistle icon"?

 

 

 

 

 

:whistle:

 

Yes

[Stormbringer]

yeah it's totally wank this rotation shite. If he doesn't get us to the top of the table soon I say sack him.............................................................................................................................................................................................................Og give me strength ffs

[redrosetints]

I wonder how long Shanks or Paisley would have lasted, having everything inspected in minute detail. We won, we rotated, we had injuries and did I mention we won ?

 

I understand people are hedging their bets, we've been here before, false dawns etc its only October afterall and we've won nothing yet, but christ, loosen the collar a little and maybe just enjoy the moment, even if there are no guarantees.

[Kevin D]

I think criticism is valid because we've seen it happen on numerous occasions and go badly. The fact of the matter is that we won but on another day Diop does not do what he did and we may have lost two massive points.

 

We did win though so Rafa deserves plaudits for using his squad but IMO the squad is not strong enough to win most games with that amount of changes. Also Alonso and Lucas should play together as little as possible.

[Brownie]

We've made such a good start to the season that most times I see criticism of Rafa or the team it's just bouncing off me. It's kind of hard to take in, if you know what I mean, but I see your point.

 

Back to the opening post. If the suggestion is that players need to be left out of the squad altogether to benefit from rest then I disagree. They can rest on the bench, and if we're in trouble they can be used to try and turn the game around. Take last season's 1-1 against Birmingham at Anfield, for example. Without Torres, who came off the bench and conjured up a goal out of nothing, we would probably have lost that game. Nando rescued us a point, but we wouldn't have had the option if he was left out of the squad altogether.

 

I think some people are scraping the bottom of the criticism barrel this season.

 

Didn't we draw 0-0 with Birmingham at Anfield last season? Torres was 'rested' but came on and almost scored with an overhead kick.

 

I agree with Barry Wom. I remember the Derby last year when Rafa made a lot of decisions I disagreed with but, 'we won so why does it matter'? The things I was unhappy about that day ended up costing us points throughout the season (IMO) so I think it's still fair to mention something if you think it potentially has the ability to cost you at a later date.

[Guest TK-421]

Didn't we draw 0-0 with Birmingham at Anfield last season? Torres was 'rested' but came on and almost scored with an overhead kick.

 

I agree with Barry Wom. I remember the Derby last year when Rafa made a lot of decisions I disagreed with but, 'we won so why does it matter'? The things I was unhappy about that day ended up costing us points throughout the season (IMO) so I think it's still fair to mention something if you think it potentially has the ability to cost you at a later date.

 

I might have my games mixed up. There was one where he came on with about 15 minutes to go and scored with his left peg, can't remember which game it was or if we won or drew.

[Kevin D]

Fulham at home , my favourite Torres goal.

[Brownie]

Yeah it was Fulham and we won the game. To be fair Torres wasn't being rested at that point, he had been injured and just didn't look right, until that night. He was awesome after that.

[Thants]

Most of the missing first teamers werent injured or up to it last night.

[Guest TK-421]

Yeah it was Fulham and we won the game. To be fair Torres wasn't being rested at that point, he had been injured and just didn't look right, until that night. He was awesome after that.

 

I was just trying to give an example. Personally I'd rather have a strong bench, during the games when rotation is used, rather than have the rested players watching from the stands.

[mattyq]

I think this thread has lost its objective a little bit. The creator of the thread is not questioning the rotation - he is saying that if players need rest, they should be completely left out i.e., they should not be even on the bench.

 

I don't agree with the 1st post on the thread but just pointing out that he didn't say Rafa should never ever rotate.

 

I take your point, CiL, but he started the thread off saying - We saw Rafa at his worst, tinkering, or words to that effect.

That implies that Rafa was rotating for no good reason and IMO is just plain wrong

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Can't believe people want to pick holes in every fucking game. We won, we are top. It wasn't a thrashing that most people want against anybody outside the top four. It doesn't matter how we win as long as we do. Stop pulling out old sticks to beat Rafa with because it was not a perfect win. Nobody will complain if we have challenged by the end of the season. Or will they look at not beating the likes of Portsmouth 73-0 everytime. Spybee was spot on with his comment earlier in the thread.

[Brownie]

I was just trying to give an example. Personally I'd rather have a strong bench, during the games when rotation is used, rather than have the rested players watching from the stands.

 

I totally agree with you on that.

[Red-Ed]

Didn't see anything wrong with the team selection - the team was easily good enough to beat Portsmouth at home.

 

All the changes seemed totally reasonable to me:

 

Agger - just back from injury, probably a little tired and Hyppia is best suited to dealing with Crouch.

Riera - worn out, had a knock.

Keane - played against Chelsea with an injection and needs a rest.

Mascherano - not really needed for a mid table team at home, has done a lot of travelling and not really had a summer break due to the Olympics.

 

Those coming in - Babel - played very well against Chelsea and deserved a start.

Pennant - with Babel likely to cut in he offered width down the right.

Lucas - best option for central midfield after Mascherano.

 

So, I don't really see how anyone can have any issues with this - people can certainly question it - nothing wrong with that, but all the decisions add up and are reached with simple logic.

 

Also thought Lucas had a decent game.

[MLB]

As I said in the other thread, I didn't have too many problems with Rafa's starting 11 last night, although I did wonder where a goal was going to come from. I had expected the squad players (Babel, Lucas and Pennant) to perform better though. I have a bit of sympathy win them because it's hard to come in without having had too many games and look sharp, but at the same time they should be fresh and hungry and putting themsleves about more than any of them - except Babl - were. We definitely can't afford to keep doing that though, because sooner or later it WILL cost us points. Keep players fresh with well timed substitutions and make changes in first team personnel when it makes sense to do so, but don't keep bringing 3 or 4 peripheral players in and expect to be able to take 3 points every time.

[Ramjet]

Last night saw rafa at his worst - tinkering. Of course we have to rotate players - noone disputes that - but the fact is that putting a regular starter on the subs bench does NOT result in ANY fitness or energy saving for them (all it does is reduce the risk of injury, although i accept that is important). The players still have to train, and get mentally up for the game, and then usually have to come on for a cavalry charge! If Rafa wants to rest players, he has to simply give them the entire game off. If not, play them - and take them off when the game is comfortable.

 

That is probably the biggest crock of shit I have ever read, and I have read some shit believe me. If you have any studies that can prove your theory then by all means go right ahead.

 

All the players train, whether they play or not, seriously its true, head down to Melwood some day you'll see them.