Have you lost faith in Rafa as manager?

[redrosetints]

Fucking hell you have a short memory... here is the "squad/team" whatever you want to call it so it fits your agenda that Rafa inhertited from GH...

 

Goalkeepers

1 Jurek Dudek,

22 Chris Kirkland,

29 Patrice Luzi

 

Defenders

Carl Medjani,

Stephane Henchoz,

Jon Otsemobor

Steve Finnan

John Welsh

Djimi Traore

Sami Hyypia

Salif Diao

Jamie Carragher

 

Midfielders

Dietmar Hamann

John Arne Riise

Danny Murphy

Bruno Cheyrou

Steven Gerrard

Igor Biscan

Vladimir Smicer

 

Forwards

Michael Owen

El Hadji Diouf

Anthony Le Tallec

Milan Baros

Florent Sinama Pongolle

Harry Kewell

Emile Heskey

Richie Partridge

 

Christ we had some shite then. IMHO, were clearly stronger across the squad under Rafa. Plus Rafa actually get's profit from sales, Geds lot couldn't be given away.

[Neil G]

Quote:

Josemi Rey - Stop gap

Antonio Nunez - Stop gap

Xabi Alonso - We would make a profit if he was sold

Luis Garcia - Class

Mauricio Pellegrino - Stop gap

Fernando Morientes - Class just not suited to the Prem.

Scott Carson - We would make a profit if he was sold

Josh Mimms

Antonio Barragan - Profit

Boudewijn Zenden - Free

Jose Reina - - We would make a profit if he was sold

Mohamed Sissoko - Profit

Peter Crouch - - We would make a profit if he was sold

Godwin Antwi

Miki Roque

Jack Hobbs - - We would make a profit if he was sold

Besian Idrizaj

Ramon Calliste

Mark Gonzalez - Didn't lose any money on this deal

Paul Anderson - - We would make a profit if he was sold

Jan Kromkamp - Profit

Daniel Agger - We would make a profit if he was sold

David Martin

Robbie Fowler - What can I say!!

Craig Bellamy - Profit

Gabriel Paletta - Didn't lose any money on this deal

Fábio Aurélio - Free

Jermaine Pennant - Loss if we sold

Dirk Kuyt - Loss if we sold

Nabil El Zhar

Astrit Ajdarevic

Daniele Padelli

Jordy Brouwer

Francisco Durán

Ronald Huth

Álvaro Arbeloa - We would make a profit if he was sold

Javier Mascherano - We would make a profit if he was sold

Lucas Pezzini Leiva

Mikel San José Domínguez

Sebastian Leto

Fernando Torres - We would make a profit if he was sold

Andriy Voronin - We would make a profit if he was sold

Yossi Benayoun - Loss if we sold

Ryan Babel - Break even if sold

Charles Itandje - SMALL profit if he was sold

Emiliano Insúa

Martin Skrtel - Too early

 

So all in all not really that bad if you think about it....

 

Good analysis and I agree with virtually all of it, although I think we'd get our money back on both Pennant and Benayoun. That backs up my point about having confidence in giving Rafa big money to spend, because even if it didn't work out and he was sacked, his successor wouldn't be hampered in the transfer market because of Rafa's mistakes.

 

Whether Rafa could get the best out of big money signings is of course another matter, but I'd be happy for him to get the chance to try.

[Hermes]

That backs up my point about having confidence in giving Rafa big money to spend, because even if it didn't work out and he was sacked, his successor wouldn't be hampered in the transfer market because of Rafa's mistakes.

 

Whether Rafa could get the best out of big money signings is of course another matter, but I'd be happy for him to get the chance to try.

 

The biggest transfer budget in the clubs history? How exactly do you define "big money"?

 

£133m to take the club from 4th to 5th, how much more should they give him?

[Neil G]

The biggest transfer budget in the clubs history? How exactly do you define "big money"?

 

£133m to take the club from 4th to 5th, how much more should they give him?

 

£40-50m net, as I posted earlier in the thread.

 

That, together with the money he can raise from player sales, is the amount I think it would take to sign top-class players for the positions in the side that most obviously need strengthening. If he's given that money he'll have no excuse not to go for quality over quantity, and if he doesn't put in a title challenge on the back of it then he has to go.

[Hermes]

£40-50m net, as I posted earlier in the thread.

 

That, together with the money he can raise from player sales, is the amount I think it would take to sign top-class players for the positions in the side that most obviously need strengthening. If he's given that money he'll have no excuse not to go for quality over quantity, and if he doesn't put in a title challenge on the back of it then he has to go.

 

3 years ago he was scrambling for a CL place, £133m (£65m net) later he is still scrambling for a CL place.

 

Throwing good money after bad is not the answer.

[zigackly]

How much more should they give him?

 

Enough to compete with the two teams who have finished above us for the last two seasons, whose squads are littered with £15M to £30M players, would be nice. We only have one player in that price range. But we haven't got that kind of money anyway.

[JMARKH]

This rotation thing does my head in. How has rotation hampered us in the league, given by and large we've played all our big players in most games?

 

He's made some strange choices in some games, and some players have been shite, but that's fuck all to do with rotation.

 

Roatation of the system fucks things up as well, why did he not start with Crouch and Torres as a front two against Reading in the league as we would have won that game, as we did in the carling cup when we put four past them, we would have also beat Wigan at home, birmingham at home, portsmouth away and could have turned many more draws into wins but no this man insists on not having a settled side and it does affect the team as they gel better when they are not in and out the side, how can any player be expected to play with confidence when they don't know if their in the team one week to the next? all these things affect players who are rotated and even the regulars who are not because it has a knock on effect on the rest of the team

[Hermes]

Enough to compete with the two teams who have finished above us for the last two seasons, whose squads are littered with £15M to £30M players, would be nice. We only have one player in that price range. But we haven't got that kind of money anyway.

 

As I posted in an earlier thread he has far outspent every club that has finished below him in this country and never finished above any that have outspent him.

 

He has a record of failure in the transfer market, why trust him with millions more?

[EmilHamilton]

Dudek

 

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

 

Gerrard Murphy Hamann Kewell

 

Owen Baros

 

That would be Rafa's team I guess if he hadn't been able to buy or sell anyone.

 

Apart from Mascherano, Reina and Torres, there's nobody else in our current squad that would get a look in to that team even. Agger's good, but Hyypia's better. Arbeloa's good, but Finnan's more dependable head to head.

 

Alonso's been hogwash since the end of 2005/06.

 

After 4 years are we in a better position?

 

Not really. He's made mistakes which he hasn't recitified, something we had under Houllier as well.

[zigackly]

As I posted in an earlier thread he has far outspent every club that has finished below him in this country and never finished above any that have outspent him.

 

Strange, that.

 

He has a record of failure in the transfer market, why trust him with millions more?

 

Failure in the transfer market my arse. Don't be so fucking dense.

[Neil G]

3 years ago he was scrambling for a CL place, £133m (£65m net) later he is still scrambling for a CL place.

 

Throwing good money after bad is not the answer.

 

The most Rafa has had to spend net in one summer has been £20m.

 

If he'd been given £40m to spend in one summer at any point since he arrived, do you still think he'd have gone for quantity over quality? He tried to sign the likes of Simao and Alves but they were out of his price range.

[Hermes]

 

 

 

Failure in the transfer market my arse. Don't be so fucking dense.

 

Explain £133m (£65m net) to go from 4th to 5th.

[zigackly]

Explain £133m (£65m net) to go from 4th to 5th.

 

What the fuck are you on about?

[Hermes]

What the fuck are you on about?

 

He's failed to improve the team having spent a fortune.

 

He's fighting for CL place with a club with an income of half of ours who finished way behind us last season (Everton), a club that finished 26 points behind us last season but only spent the same in the summer (City) and another club that finished way behind and spent less since last season (Villa).

 

People need to stop making excuses for him and look at the reality.

[zigackly]

He's fighting for CL place with a club with an income of half of ours who finished way behind us last season (Everton), a club that finished 26 points behind us last season but only spent the same in the summer (City) and another club that finished way behind and spent less since last season (Villa).

 

That's probably fair comment, but there are mitigating factors which have knackered our form, after our best ever premier league start. None of those clubs have had their manager publically undermined in public and had months of rumours about a second takeover in just over a year. The season is far from over yet and I believe we will finish in a CL spot, despite the constant press speculation. It's not good enough, but at the end of the day it's one bad season whereas when not interfered with he's managed to finish about where we should be, or better considering that he's finished twice above a manager who had just gone unbeaten in the league for a season when he joined. I don't honestly think we should be expecting to outperform clubs who clearly have much better squads than us: it's a bonus if we do frankly. I think he worked miracles in his first two seasons, and we were a stone's throw away from another act of genius last season. How forgetful, ungrateful and fickle some of our supporters really are.

[WaltonRed]

That's probably fair comment, but there are mitigating factors which have knackered our form, after our best ever premier league start. None of those clubs have had their manager publically undermined in public and had months of rumours about a second takeover in just over a year. The season is far from over yet and I believe we will finish in a CL spot, despite the constant press speculation. It's not good enough, but at the end of the day it's one bad season whereas when not interfered with he's managed to finish about where we should be, or better considering that he's finished twice above a manager who had just gone unbeaten in the league for a season when he joined. I don't honestly think we should be expecting to outperform clubs who clearly have much better squads than us: it's a bonus if we do frankly. I think he worked miracles in his first two seasons, and we were a stone's throw away from another act of genius last season. How forgetful, ungrateful and fickle some of our supporters really are.

 

I havent forgotten and i will never forget, I will always be thankful to Rafa but I wont let it blind my love for the club which at the end of the day is suffering.

 

Its not being fickle, I havent come to this conclusion lightly. Im so sad and unhappy with it all at the minute its unreal. Its never nice to come to the conclusion that ultimately someone you want to succeed, wont.

[spider-neil]

a bit pointless going on about players sold for a profit or potentially sold for a profit, we aren't accountants.

there is absolutely no doubt rafa has improved the squad but in regards to the first team the same glaring short comings are there, in his fourth season in charge.

 

do you trust him to address those shortcomings in the summer (if he is still here).

as I've said eariler he should be given the oppertunity because a) it will cost a fortune to get rid of him b) there aren't many managers I think are better (only my opinion) c) a new manager will probably want to rebuild from top to bottom like every manager we've had since souness.

[DJLJ]

a bit pointless going on about players sold for a profit or potentially sold for a profit, we aren't accountants.

there is absolutely no doubt rafa has improved the squad but in regards to the first team the same glaring short comings are there, in his fourth season in charge.

 

do you trust him to address those shortcomings in the summer (if he is still here).

as I've said eariler he should be given the oppertunity because a) it will cost a fortune to get rid of him b) there aren't many managers I think are better (only my opinion) c) a new manager will probably want to rebuild from top to bottom like every manager we've had since souness.

 

He has had 3 1/2 years and £100+ million, wouldn't you expect him to have improved the squad?

[zigackly]

I havent forgotten and i will never forget, I will always be thankful to Rafa but I wont let it blind my love for the club which at the end of the day is suffering.

 

Its not being fickle, I havent come to this conclusion lightly. Im so sad and unhappy with it all at the minute its unreal. Its never nice to come to the conclusion that ultimately someone you want to succeed, wont.

 

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. I don't agree with it, but at least you aren't gleefully sticking a knife in his back mate, unlike some. I love the club as well by the way, but I don't think it's Rafa who is damaging it.

[Dropkick]

Which with hindsight looks a rational decision.

 

It was the decision that killed off our league challenge. If the manager who the players follow DENIES THE PLAYERS THEIR RIGHT to go on fighting for three points in a game then you cannot expect the players to kill themselves over the subsequent points to play for.

[Owen]

I like Rafa a lot and when he leaves here he'll be a success at another club but I just think to many events have conspired to end his tenure here. You can argue the toss a thousand times over but what's caused what and who is to blame but I just don't see how the situation can be retrieved. I have faith in him but he's powerless now; he's like Saruman in Return Of The King.

 

No point reading after this. Jules is spot on, unfortunately.

 

One thing's for certain, Rafa won't have any shortage of offers when he does leave, and that says a hell of a lot.

[EmilHamilton]

personally rather than spend 30 million each season on 4 squad players, he could've used the last 4 years addressing one issue at a time instead, and strengthening us with a couple top top quality players per year.

[WaltonRed]

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. I don't agree with it, but at least you aren't gleefully sticking a knife in his back mate, unlike some. I love the club as well by the way, but I don't think it's Rafa who is damaging it.

 

Its obvious the off the field shite has damaged our season but I just think it should'nt affect the team as much as others do, thats all.

[Jens]

My opinion is as a fan you must be patient. You must let Rafa work on the small details. He finally has a squad who he thinks is good enough and the heavy players in/out-traffic seems to be over (he´s said so himself anyway). He shouldn´t be made victim because he wanted his very own players. He must be allowed to develop the team as a unit. To do that, he must be allowed to work with the current players on a daily basis over a large period of time. Only then is it fair to judge him a success or a failure.This is what I think.

[navbasi]

I posted the below on another thread but it should really have been on this one!

 

A mate emailed me this (I think it's a c&p from another forum..)

 

With Man utd and Chelsea, the two teams that have dominated British football since Rafa arrived at Liverpool? There is absolutely no reason why he should be expected to compete with these sides, other than from Reds' fans and the Media's over-expectations, which are rooted in Liverpool's extraordinary European success under Rafa.

 

Do not forget that since Rafa first arrived, Liverpool have been considerably more successful than Arsenal - they have finished above them for the last two seasons in the league (by 15 points in 2006), have won the Champions League and the FA cup, and been losing finalists in the Champions League and the Carling cup. This is an extraordinary overachievement for a manager who has been at Liverpool for 3 1/2 years.

But the real question is, when Man Utd have 8 players who cost more than £12m, and Chelsea have 10, why should Liverpool, who have 2 (Torres, Babel)be expected to compete over a full season? Why?

 

There is no reason, other than that Rafa's overachievement has raised the bar so high, people think we're now on a par with these teams. Well, over 38 games, we're clearly not. And people think Rafa should be sacked because of this? It's an absolute joke.