Klopp: This season is not a true reflection of who we are

[an tha]

9 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

I don't know - that is why I asked you what made you think Klopp could do it. To my point before, I doubt we (read Klopp) will ever have a Balon D'or level CB AND two of the greatest wide attackers (Golden Boots) our club has ever seen at the same time again. 

So if that is what is needed for this "system" to work then we are wasting our time harping on the midfield.

We'll have to agree to disagree I feel.

 

I've stated my position on what I believe strongly we need to fix us, you clearly see it differently.

 

I think you are dead wrong when you say we are wasting our time 'harping on about midfield' but we could go round in circles on this all day and bore each other and i am sure everybody else stupid - so let's agree to disagree and see what happens in summer.

 

My guess is we'll see a pretty substantial midfield rebuild and a tweak or two elsewhere and then we'll see what happens from there next season.

 

I look forward to discussing things as we go then.

 

 

[Red74]

13 minutes ago, Freddo said:

I think that is about right Scott in terms of a big sacrifice. Something that sends a shot across the whole group. I’d go for Henderson either moved or stripped of the captaincy. Trent demoted from leadership group and Alli being made captain. All those coming to contract end to go. Fabinho to be sold. Squad fillers like Tsimikas and Jones to also go. 
If we get a good offer for Jota, we’d be mad to not consider it. 

Are you Graeme Souness. 

[Kobayashi Maru]

The deficiencies in Midfield have been obvious for quite some time, and the 'engine parts' may be missing, for me the real concerns are why Klopp has failed to adapt and make the necessary adjustments to the formations and tactical set up.  Being pragmatic and maybe a bit tighter, or has his idealisms rooted a dogmatic approach and he refuses to acknowledge or doesn't see the issues for what they are.

[Scott_M]

37 minutes ago, Freddo said:

I think that is about right Scott in terms of a big sacrifice. Something that sends a shot across the whole group. I’d go for Henderson either moved or stripped of the captaincy. Trent demoted from leadership group and Alli being made captain. All those coming to contract end to go. Fabinho to be sold. Squad fillers like Tsimikas and Jones to also go. 
If we get a good offer for Jota, we’d be mad to not consider it. 

And that is the balancing act as I think this is too much! 

 

We already have Firmino, Ox, Keita & Arthur leaving and Adrian, Milner, Matip, Phillips & Williams likely to leave.

I get the argument “Well of that group Matip, Firmino and occasionally Milner ever add anything to the team anyway”, I still feel then adding Fabinho, Jones, Tsmiskas etc to that and it’s in danger of too far.

 

Tsmiskas is a solid player. Given Robbo not being at his best, there is an argument he should have been used more this season.

 

And that might be part of the issue. As well as Tsmiskas plays, he’s never let us down, he’ll always be #2 to Robbo.
 

Ramsey might come good next season (like Tsmiskas) but Trent currently has no real competition. VVD certainly has no competition. Fabinho has minimal competition. Salah has no competition….

 
City yesterday left out Walker, Laporte & Bernardo Silva and were without Foden (so if fit, Mahrez, Grealish or Foden would have missed out). They regularly leave out KDB. Cancelo was bombed out quickly. Nobody is really 100% assured of their place in that squad. It keeps them on their toes & hungry. 

Given their ages and contract scenarios, I assume Fabinho, Thiago, VVD and Salah would be most at risk of a sacrificing. Given his 50/50 fitness record, Thiago doesn’t send enough of a message IMO. Does Fabinho send enough of a message?
 

Then it’s incredibly brave to sacrifice VVD or Salah - undeniably two of the best players in the world over the last 5 years? 
 

Then we’d have to replace Fabinho, VVD or Mo, and that wouldn’t be cheap.
 

Or would a break and some fresh legs be enough to get us back at >90 points?

 

I trust Klopp’s judgement but he needs to get the majority of these decisions right in the summer - on and off the pitch, there feels a lot to solve.

[Freddo]

28 minutes ago, Red74 said:

I’m right. You’re wrong

Jesus, it’s like talking to some right children on here. Anyhow, you believe what you want. Let’s sack klopp eh 

[Freddo]

@Scott_M I think for Tsimikas and Jones for the good of their careers they need to play as does Kelleher. It may be that they all ask to move. On Thiago, we clearly can’t rely on his fitness so you could see why he’d be sold. 
Lots of work to do though as I’m sure we can all agree. 

[KevieG]

The league position doesn't lie. It's an exact reflection of who we are. Just like a couple of years ago when we scrimped on centre backs we nearly missed out on champions league. 

 

Same this year. Mingebags who don't back the manager. 

[Scott_M]

8 minutes ago, Freddo said:

@Scott_M I think for Tsimikas and Jones for the good of their careers they need to play as does Kelleher. It may be that they all ask to move. On Thiago, we clearly can’t rely on his fitness so you could see why he’d be sold. 
Lots of work to do though as I’m sure we can all agree. 

I think Tsmiskas should be used more often. We likely won’t get as good a #2 left back and he’s only 27. Definitely keep.

 

I’m easy either way with Jones. I do think there is a talented player in there. I’d give him another season, I can see why others disagree.

 

I forgot about Keheller. Yes, he’s likely to move on. As is Adrian. So we need 2 back up keepers. We’re up to 10 players almost certain to leave…

 

On Thiago, given his age, lack of availability and <12m on his contract, I don’t disagree he should be at risk of being moved on. I doubt we’d get much of a fee - therefore if he’s needed less and potentially available more at key times, is keeping him more beneficial than whatever small fee we’d receive? Especially where we’re likely to be embedding 2/3 midfielders. 

[VladimirIlyich]

14 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

You mean in the return of the 3 forwards?

I mean that his financial restraints make him prioritise and he feels that sorting the strikers out first is the way to go,under those constraints. I trust his judgement despite this season.

[Scott_M]

14 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

The midfielder he wanted signed for Real Madrid and the other is only maybe leaving this summer and is followed by all the big clubs. Money had likely little to do with the former and is only one variable in the race for the other.

 

You know sensible answers like that won't fly. 

[dave u]

It is not a true reflection of who we were. It is absolutely a true reflection of who we now are.

[Scott_M]

14 hours ago, George Costanza said:

A new midfield doesn't solve our problems. It completely fanciful to even think that.

 

Stringy's right - the players have stopped listening to Klopp.  Maybe they've just checked out for a season & will return to focus next season but maybe last season was the last dance for the team as a collective unit.  Mane left but maybe more should have been moved on to shake it up. 

 

Only time will tell, but it'll be a huge/interesting summer. 

 

New players will obviously help, I think it's as much the downstream implications it'll have.

 

For arguments sake, say, as rumoured, we sign Belligham, Nunes, Mount & Kone. Thats a very big outlay (especially on Bellingham). All young, fast, very hard working. Players will be boosted we've invested heavily in international quality players.

 

The new players will listen to Klopp. They'll be hungry to impress. That enthusiasm, you'd hope, will rub off onto other players. You'd hope players will push each other. 

 

Gakpo, Nunez, Elliott, Carvalho, Bajectic, even Diaz, will be more embedded into expectations and still have the enthusiasm to improve.

 

Even though they've under performed this season, we still have great players. If they start to believe in us again, especially if we hit the ground running, you'd hope we could quickly-ish get back to where we were. 

 

I know that all sounds all shiny and wonderful, but thats my theory. If we do the above and we don't improve significantly then there need to be more fundamental questions being asked.

 

[sir roger]

1 hour ago, Freddo said:

I think that is about right Scott in terms of a big sacrifice. Something that sends a shot across the whole group. I’d go for Henderson either moved or stripped of the captaincy. Trent demoted from leadership group and Alli being made captain. All those coming to contract end to go. Fabinho to be sold. Squad fillers like Tsimikas and Jones to also go. 
If we get a good offer for Jota, we’d be mad to not consider it. 

 

Them fuckers, the Premier League, making it 5 a side from next season ?

[TheSire]

2 hours ago, Freddo said:

I think that is about right Scott in terms of a big sacrifice. Something that sends a shot across the whole group. I’d go for Henderson either moved or stripped of the captaincy. Trent demoted from leadership group and Alli being made captain. All those coming to contract end to go. Fabinho to be sold. Squad fillers like Tsimikas and Jones to also go. 
If we get a good offer for Jota, we’d be mad to not consider it. 

And then you'd be moaning about a lack of cover when there are injuries.

[Freddo]

Just now, TheSire said:

And then you'd be moaning about a lack of cover when there are injuries.

No I won't be moaning at all. We can replace some of these lads with better players. Some of these lads have had their best days in red. Up to Jurgen and the board to sort it out and get tough 

[Carra_is_legend]

For the first time I am genuinely worried for Klopp's future.

 

For me alarm bells are loud and clear when a manager calls out lack of fundamental stuff like tackling. He pretty much said yesterday that he could not understand himself why no one was tackling or fouling when the ball was out in the open. Ofcourse he has seen that before in other games too but perhaps finally decided to call it out yesterday when he said only 4 players actually did something. There are too many senior players with an absolute rubbish attitude.

 

In my opinion, for Klopp to come out on top before next season, he needs to ship out 1 or 2 senior players in the summer to make a point and establish the authority back. It could be anyone out of Trent, Hendo, Fabinho, VVD, Jota and even Salah. On top of Matip.

[sir roger]

Jurgen is brilliant, but I worked under loads of bosses, good and bad,  and cant remember any that I took much notice of after the first few years. You get bored of hearing the same things.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

12 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Jurgen is brilliant, but I worked under loads of bosses, good and bad,  and cant remember any that I took much notice of after the first few years. You get bored of hearing the same things.

It's just natural, and some employees take advantage of it, and some enjoy the new relationship.  

 

I agree that this is a problem for Klopp, and this summer is his last chance to remove those who can't be trusted any longer.   

 

But I'm nervous about Klopp buying/loaning midfielders.  

Thiago, Keita, Fabinho, Ox, Wijnaldum, Grujic, Arthur.  That's the list.  7 central midfielders in 7 years.  

It's hard to make a final judgement on how many were successful, aside from Wijnaldum. Injuries are a factor, you can't ignore it.  

 

Perhaps a 40% success rate, being kind, across 7 years.  

 

And now we're going to buy 3 midfielders in one summer and get it 100% right?  It's actually massively worse than this high risk gamble because previous midfield signings came into a side with a younger version of Milner and Henderson to help bear the workload, and Coutinho, Lallana, and Can for a few seasons.  

 

Sorry, this is fucking madness.  Klopp has fucked this up and he can't fix it in one summer unless he buys 5 midfielders and prays for a miracle.  He bought a single midfielder in the past 4 years.  An ageing star with injury issues who last played 45 games in a season back in 2011.  Mad shit. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

We’re fucked!

[Scott_M]

3 hours ago, Red74 said:

Everyone’s been saying let’s write this season off but why should we. City haven’t and we only played 2 games more than them last season. We spent as much as them in the summer and their expensive midfielder hasn’t played a game through injury yet they haven’t made any excuses.
 

That’s not true though. We played 1 FA Cup, 1 CL and 4 league cup cups, of which 3 of which we were at full strength. 
 

Plus we had both finals go to Extra Time. 
 

And we had all the extra time Mo especially had to go through at the AFCON.

 

And all that to miss out on the two big trophies. I don’t think anybody can play down the mental, emotional & psychological impacts last season has brought. 

[3 Stacks]

 

3 hours ago, an tha said:

We'll have to agree to disagree I feel.

 

I've stated my position on what I believe strongly we need to fix us, you clearly see it differently.

 

I think you are dead wrong when you say we are wasting our time 'harping on about midfield' but we could go round in circles on this all day and bore each other and i am sure everybody else stupid - so let's agree to disagree and see what happens in summer.

 

My guess is we'll see a pretty substantial midfield rebuild and a tweak or two elsewhere and then we'll see what happens from there next season.

 

I look forward to discussing things as we go then.

 

 

 

The midfield is an obvious issue but during our greatest successes it was never the backbone of the team. This is being a bit simplistic but they were there to carry the piano. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to find players who could do this again, but it's not the solution to our issues now.  

 

What happened when we got good is that we bought world class players in van Dijk and Alisson, then Salah, Trent and Mane also became world class and we had a unique striker in Firmino that was a once in a generation type stylistic fit that brought everything together. The rest were there as support. Sometimes people give more credit to those players than the difference makers for some reason. It's why for as good as he was for us, there's this myth that's been built with Gini where people now think he was the straw that stirred the drink or something. The same with Henderson. 

 

The bigger issue is our top players have looked different shades of finished and the players we paid big money for haven't done the difference yet. Darwin is the biggest one. The biggest fallacy of the season was we have to give him time because he's raw. Look what's happened. We're praising the "chaos" he brings as one of the season's biggest positives whilst sitting in midtable. He had to be great right away. Diaz has to be world class. Konate has to be world class. Is a few midfielders who run around and win duels going to make those two things happen? It might help, but probably not. 

 

Similarly, to think a couple midfielders who can run will resurrect a van Dijk in his 30's with a reconstructed knee, for example, is fanciful. Or that it will make Darwin a better player. Honestly, it's why we're after Bellingham; we think he's a world class player and we simply need more of those. 

 

We're stuck because Bellingham is overpriced and the deal is stupid financially but if there's a good chance he will be a great player, we kind of have to do it because we don't have any great players anymore. 

 

 

 

 

[stringvest]

4 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

The midfield issue needs to be resolved. No doubt this season it’s the main reason we’ve been so poor. Apart from that of course the squad needs maintenance, but no big changes are required in defence or attack.

 

Many were saying we needed a complete overhaul in 20/21. They were wrong, once the defence was back to normal we were brilliant. Perhaps the same people that are saying now we need a complete rebuild. 
 

If Klopp is backed and we have the financial power to fix the midfield, and do the necessary normal adjustments to the rest of the squad, then we’ll be fine. In addition to 3-4 midfielders we need a new CB and probably a new young forward for the future and as a backup short term.

 

Changes need to be made, but you can't look at the midfield in isolation.  We have to build a coherent front to back team.  Those hankering after a midfield full of runners are missing the point.  the game has evolved - as it always does - and the Klopp team of four years ago is not going to have the effect it had then.  Teams know how to deal with that stuff these days.  We've got too many players who are actually brain dead and

 

As for Kuyt and Lucas, for fuck's sake.  

 

I do think that Klopp is guilty of a wanton inflexibility in how he sets teams up to play, and a dereliction of duty in retaining - and playing - players who are clearly not up to the required standard.  

 

The remainder of this season should be used to give some of the better youngsters in the reserves the opportunity to stake a claim for a permanent place in the first team squad.  We don't really want to be bogged down in the UEFA next year, and if that upsets FSG, well fuck them.  They and Klopp are complicit in us being a laughing stock this year, they need to suck it up.  

 

[stringvest]

4 hours ago, Scott_M said:

And that is the balancing act as I think this is too much! 

 

We already have Firmino, Ox, Keita & Arthur leaving and Adrian, Milner, Matip, Phillips & Williams likely to leave.

I get the argument “Well of that group Matip, Firmino and occasionally Milner ever add anything to the team anyway”, I still feel then adding Fabinho, Jones, Tsmiskas etc to that and it’s in danger of too far.

 

Tsmiskas is a solid player. Given Robbo not being at his best, there is an argument he should have been used more this season.

 

And that might be part of the issue. As well as Tsmiskas plays, he’s never let us down, he’ll always be #2 to Robbo.
 

Ramsey might come good next season (like Tsmiskas) but Trent currently has no real competition. VVD certainly has no competition. Fabinho has minimal competition. Salah has no competition….

 
City yesterday left out Walker, Laporte & Bernardo Silva and were without Foden (so if fit, Mahrez, Grealish or Foden would have missed out). They regularly leave out KDB. Cancelo was bombed out quickly. Nobody is really 100% assured of their place in that squad. It keeps them on their toes & hungry. 

Given their ages and contract scenarios, I assume Fabinho, Thiago, VVD and Salah would be most at risk of a sacrificing. Given his 50/50 fitness record, Thiago doesn’t send enough of a message IMO. Does Fabinho send enough of a message?
 

Then it’s incredibly brave to sacrifice VVD or Salah - undeniably two of the best players in the world over the last 5 years? 
 

Then we’d have to replace Fabinho, VVD or Mo, and that wouldn’t be cheap.
 

Or would a break and some fresh legs be enough to get us back at >90 points?

 

I trust Klopp’s judgement but he needs to get the majority of these decisions right in the summer - on and off the pitch, there feels a lot to solve.

 

Even though I don't agree with your key points, it's a good post.  I no longer believe in Klopp's judgement - he's making too many poor decisions, and putting faith in players that have never actually justified it, for reasons unknown.  

 

Tsimikas should have played ahead of Robertson in most games over the course of the season - he's a better defender, has more composure going forward, and the big advantage is that he's two footed.

 

I happen to think that Thiago is the best midfielder we've had since Gerrard, but I share the frustration with his fitness record.   Apart from  him and Bajectic, the rest of the midfield is garbage and should be bombed out.  

 

I do feel Mo will be looking to move - the team doesn't work for him in the same way as it did before, and I also think VVD may be on the wane now, so if we're not going to keep him until he's in his mid 30s, then now might be the time to cash in.  

 

I think having a mass exodus is really the only chance Klopp has of being able to create a successful team with hunger - and more importantly, players who will listen to him.  At the moment, he's a lame duck manager, and that's not good for him or the club.

 

[stringvest]

2 hours ago, TheSire said:

And then you'd be moaning about a lack of cover when there are injuries.

 

Not only is the cover we have shit, but the first choice players are.  I can't believe the youngsters playing in the reserves would have put in a more clueless and gutless performance than what we saw from some of our first choice players yesterday.

[Red74]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

That’s not true though. We played 1 FA Cup, 1 CL and 4 league cup cups, of which 3 of which we were at full strength. 
 

Plus we had both finals go to Extra Time. 
 

And we had all the extra time Mo especially had to go through at the AFCON.

 

And all that to miss out on the two big trophies. I don’t think anybody can play down the mental, emotional & psychological impacts last season has brought. 

They’re elite professional sportsmen Scott. Their mentalities are why they’re earning the big bucks while we’re moaning about them on here.

 

re your other points. We couldn’t have had a more easier run to Paris if me and you would have stood on the podium at uefa hq feeling for the hot balls and the carling cup was won months before the seasons end.

 

I keep seeing posts about Mo and the Afcon yet it never bothered Mane and Mo’s our top scorer again by a country mile.

 

These have gave up on klopp & his tactics and it’s gonna take massive investment to put it right. With these owners, that’s not gonna happen, so expect next year to be juergens farewell tour.