Klopp: This season is not a true reflection of who we are

[TheHowieLama]

I highly doubt we will get any offers for Matip or Thiago. Maybe a loan deal for Thiago but why would anyone pay us a fee for Matip? 

There might be some mingebag Italian offer for Fabinho but I would be surprised if a lowball would be accepted for him.

 

[Scott_M]

28 minutes ago, stringvest said:

 

Even though I don't agree with your key points, it's a good post.  I no longer believe in Klopp's judgement - he's making too many poor decisions, and putting faith in players that have never actually justified it, for reasons unknown.  

 

Tsimikas should have played ahead of Robertson in most games over the course of the season - he's a better defender, has more composure going forward, and the big advantage is that he's two footed.

 

I happen to think that Thiago is the best midfielder we've had since Gerrard, but I share the frustration with his fitness record.   Apart from  him and Bajectic, the rest of the midfield is garbage and should be bombed out.  

 

I do feel Mo will be looking to move - the team doesn't work for him in the same way as it did before, and I also think VVD may be on the wane now, so if we're not going to keep him until he's in his mid 30s, then now might be the time to cash in.  

 

I think having a mass exodus is really the only chance Klopp has of being able to create a successful team with hunger - and more importantly, players who will listen to him.  At the moment, he's a lame duck manager, and that's not good for him or the club.

 

You’ve more or less said what my mate has been saying to me this afternoon! 
 

I agree Tsmiskas should have played more this season and similarly think Thiago is a great player as well. 
 

I just feel that culling so many in window will cause more issues. I think players like Mo, TAA, Fabinho, Robbo and VVD have earned themselves a second chance.
 

They have been amongst the best players in the world in their respective positions in the last few seasons. I’d be willing to let them prove themselves again. 
 

I don’t think Klopp is blameless this season. We’ll never know the full story about Tchouameni / Nunez or Gakpo over a midfielder in January. I’ve intentionally steered away from that topic. There have been a lot of good thoughtful posts in here and if it comes to signings / not signings it’ll just go down the same boring, well trodden path. 

I was happier September / October time when we were trying different things. We seem to have just reverted back to 4-3-3 again now so matter what the outcome.
 

I suppose yesterday was more of a 4-2-3-1 and it worked in the first half but the lack of belief from KDB’s goal was startling.

 

Ultimately though, nothing seems to be improving. Every step forward is met with a larger step backwards. 

 

It does feel we’re at the cross roads we’ve been at before with Benitez, Houllier & Rodgers and I get the pessimism over what could happen next.
 

IMO, Klopp is a level or two above those coaches and has credit in the bank for next season, as do certain players. I hope fresh legs makes Klopps message fresh again and the enthusiasm rubs off the more senior players. 
 

I genuinely think the lack of summer break and range of emotions we went though last season can’t be underestimated, especially as we finished the last 2 weeks on a low. 
 

Undoubtably, it’s going to be very expensive and serious test of Klopp’s ability. Some big decisions due in the summer and very little margin for error. 
 

Appreciate and understand why some might feel differently. 

[Scott_M]

20 minutes ago, Red74 said:

They’re elite professional sportsmen Scott. Their mentalities are why they’re earning the big bucks while we’re moaning about them on here.

 

re your other points. We couldn’t have had a more easier run to Paris if me and you would have stood on the podium at uefa hq feeling for the hot balls and the carling cup was won months before the seasons end.

 

I keep seeing posts about Mo and the Afcon yet it never bothered Mane and Mo’s our top scorer again by a country mile.

 

These have gave up on klopp & his tactics and it’s gonna take massive investment to put it right. With these owners, that’s not gonna happen, so expect next year to be juergens farewell tour. 

I don’t disagree mate, it is human nature though. 
 

I’ve put a few pages back about the comparisons with Spurs after Madrid. Are we in a similar position now?

 

Although I think being in funk at the start of the season is understandable, I do think we should have shaken it by now. Beating City and then losing to Forest and Leeds, beating the mancs and then losing to Bournemouth… it’s unexplainable. 

[Section_31]

I think we'll know after this summer whether Klopp had got the mettle to turn it around, because it's going to require sheer ruthlessness in absolutely gutting this side.

 

He's a great guy, players love him and he loves them, but when the dog's kidneys pack in it's time to put it down. 

 

As has been said elsewhere, that's what set the likes of Paisley and Ferguson apart from the rest. Affable at times, and ruthless when you'd passed your sell by date as a player.

[LFC 6 Times]

Could see Thiago at PSG to be honest.  A luxury we can’t really afford, that said I’d give him one more year as he’s still our best midfielder when fit.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

1 hour ago, stringvest said:

 

Changes need to be made, but you can't look at the midfield in isolation.  We have to build a coherent front to back team.  Those hankering after a midfield full of runners are missing the point.  the game has evolved - as it always does - and the Klopp team of four years ago is not going to have the effect it had then.  Teams know how to deal with that stuff these days.  We've got too many players who are actually brain dead and

 

As for Kuyt and Lucas, for fuck's sake.  

 

I do think that Klopp is guilty of a wanton inflexibility in how he sets teams up to play, and a dereliction of duty in retaining - and playing - players who are clearly not up to the required standard.  

 

The remainder of this season should be used to give some of the better youngsters in the reserves the opportunity to stake a claim for a permanent place in the first team squad.  We don't really want to be bogged down in the UEFA next year, and if that upsets FSG, well fuck them.  They and Klopp are complicit in us being a laughing stock this year, they need to suck it up.  

 

Exactly the point. As long as the midfield is nowhere near PL standard it’s very difficult to judge the rest of the team. 
 

I agree om your points that the game is evolving, but we were one of the best teams in the world a little over a year ago. Have all the players AND Klopp turned shite in a little over a year? I dont think so. 
 

People overestimate how good the players are when we’re playing well and the other way around when we’re poor. Trent and Robertson were probably never anywhere near the best full backs in the world as many where harping on about not so long ago. And they probably arent the worst players in the league now either, that some seem to believe Trent is. Haven’t checked, but wouldn’t be surprised if they’re the same people actually, having those opinions.

 

Lots on here were laughing last year when some said Arsenal could challenge for the title this season, as they apparently had a clueless manager and mainly shit players. 
 

The difference between being a top four team, or even one challenging for the title, and being a mid table team is far smaller than many think. And the quality of individual players is overestimated when it comes to building a good team. It’s vital yes; but if the team isn’t functioning there could be plenty of good players in there that people will casually label shite. Like a lot on here did with the red mancs a couple of years ago.

 

 No reason we can’t be back challenging next season, but we need to make the right changes.

[magicrat]

11 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

I think we'll know after this summer whether Klopp had got the mettle to turn it around, because it's going to require sheer ruthlessness in absolutely gutting this side.

 

He's a great guy, players love him and he loves them, but when the dog's kidneys pack in it's time to put it down. 

 

As has been said elsewhere, that's what set the likes of Paisley and Ferguson apart from the rest. Affable at times, and ruthless when you'd passed your sell by date as a player.

I think his refusal to concede Karius was a bag of shite for so long doesn't bode well in terms of him being ruthless with some of these lads.. I agree it needs to happen if we are to have any chance of bouncing back.

[Section_31]

12 minutes ago, LFC 6 Times said:

Could see Thiago at PSG to be honest.  A luxury we can’t really afford, that said I’d give him one more year as he’s still our best midfielder when fit.

 

Nah I'd fuck him off. One of the reasons we can't get any consistency is because we never know who's gonna be playing from one week to the next, same for Matip and the pointless sack of shite that was Keita.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

3 hours ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

It's just natural, and some employees take advantage of it, and some enjoy the new relationship.  

 

I agree that this is a problem for Klopp, and this summer is his last chance to remove those who can't be trusted any longer.   

 

But I'm nervous about Klopp buying/loaning midfielders.  

Thiago, Keita, Fabinho, Ox, Wijnaldum, Grujic, Arthur.  That's the list.  7 central midfielders in 7 years.  

It's hard to make a final judgement on how many were successful, aside from Wijnaldum. Injuries are a factor, you can't ignore it.  

 

Perhaps a 40% success rate, being kind, across 7 years.  

 

And now we're going to buy 3 midfielders in one summer and get it 100% right?  It's actually massively worse than this high risk gamble because previous midfield signings came into a side with a younger version of Milner and Henderson to help bear the workload, and Coutinho, Lallana, and Can for a few seasons.  

 

Sorry, this is fucking madness.  Klopp has fucked this up and he can't fix it in one summer unless he buys 5 midfielders and prays for a miracle.  He bought a single midfielder in the past 4 years.  An ageing star with injury issues who last played 45 games in a season back in 2011.  Mad shit. 

On the face of it, Ox Chamberlain was the outlier that made no sense back then, and has had reverberations over the following 5 years.  

 

If you look at Newcastle signing Bruno, or Fulham signing Palhinha, you can see why they signed them, they were making waves at lower clubs in other leagues.   It's a gamble, all transfers are, but you hope they hit the ground running and develop even more.  Well, that's our Naby Keita story isn't it.  A gamble, but an understandable one, when it works out it's great.  The same was true for Fabinho, and that worked great. 

 

There was no such argument for Chamberlain though.  It was a reckless signing, a project with high risks and high costs.  But very similar to Wijnaldum in the high risk category, he buys a wide attacker and tries to develop a central midfielder.  But Wijnaldum cost half as much, and had experience and maturity, a young Feyenoord captain.  

 

Thiago was a mistake.  He's brilliant, but he was the wrong type of midfielder, and Klopp made the mistake of doubling-down on the idea that Keita and Chamberlain could be salvaged.  

 

The summer of 2020 was an odd transfer window for central midfielders.  We could have signed Bellingham for £22m from Brum, but I'm presuming Klopp felt that was Chamberlain's position, or Jones'. 

Soucek moved to West Ham, Hojberg went to Spurs, Amrabat went to Fiorentina, and Barella went to Inter, all cheaper than Thiago. 

At the same time we could also signed disasters like Arthur from Barcelona, or Van De Beek from Ajax, or Allan from Napoli. 

But the big signing was Partey to Arsenal for £45m.  But that wasn't the type of midfielder Klopp was after.

 

Sliding doors. 

 

[TheHowieLama]

16 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

 

Soucek moved to West Ham, Hojberg went to Spurs, Amrabat went to Fiorentina, and Barella went to Inter, all cheaper than Thiago. 

 

 

 

If ever there was a group of players with nothing at all in common with the player Thiago is you have identified it.

[an tha]

23 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Nah I'd fuck him off. One of the reasons we can't get any consistency is because we never know who's gonna be playing from one week to the next, same for Matip and the pointless sack of shite that was Keita.

Is right.

[TD_LFC]

27 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

We could have signed Bellingham for £22m from Brum,

 

And he'd have barely played.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Red74 said:

They’re elite professional sportsmen Scott. Their mentalities are why they’re earning the big bucks while we’re moaning about them on here.

 

re your other points. We couldn’t have had a more easier run to Paris if me and you would have stood on the podium at uefa hq feeling for the hot balls and the carling cup was won months before the seasons end.

 

I keep seeing posts about Mo and the Afcon yet it never bothered Mane and Mo’s our top scorer again by a country mile.

 

These have gave up on klopp & his tactics and it’s gonna take massive investment to put it right. With these owners, that’s not gonna happen, so expect next year to be juergens farewell tour. 

Mane is playing shite and struggling in Germany though isn't he? Last season without doubt has impacted us. 

[TD_LFC]

10 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

If ever there was a group of players with nothing at all in common with the player Thiago is you have identified it.

People would have gone mental if we'd signed any of those players over Thiago at the time.

[Megadrive Man]

5 hours ago, dave u said:

It is not a true reflection of who we were. It is absolutely a true reflection of who we now are.

 

It's worrying if Klopp can't see it.

 

Too many players look miles off the pace.

It's clearly the end of an era for many of them.

 

During the covid season we started well then had a really bad dip, but then rallied to finish third at the end of the season.

 

This season we've been up and down from the very first game. Yesterday we were almost at full strength and were battered by a City team missing two of their best attackers. 

 

For the first time I'm starting to have doubts about Klopp now.  If he can't see that we need a major overhaul this summer then I fear an even worse season next year.

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Mane is playing shite and struggling in Germany though isn't he? Last season without doubt has impacted us. 

He is?

 

He has just come back from injury layoff of over 3 months - started the season with 9 gola contributions in the first 14 games.

[Barrington Womble]

The issues we've had with our midfield became obvious in the covid season. As soon as we dropped fab back into defence, you could see the cupboard was bare in midfield. We got back on a run when fab moved back. But the likes of chamberlain and keita already looked like they weren't up to it. Milner was entering the phase of us reducing his game time. And this season we've just added fab playing shit to our issues. We needed to act then and not doing so leads to where we are now. It's as depressing as it was predictable. It's hard to believe though we'll do what's needed this season. And as.to klopps point, I think he's trying to boost his players, because you don't play this badly for this long if it's not who you are. 

[Scott_M]

4 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Mane is playing shite and struggling in Germany though isn't he? Last season without doubt has impacted us. 

 

Look at who played the most games in England last season - us, Chelsea and City but people forget West Ham and Leicester all had deep runs in Europe. 

 

Although City aren't struggling like us and the other 3 sides, they aren't at the level they have been (I know Chelsea have other issues...).

 

City also ended the season on a high, whereas everybody else ended it on a downer. 

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

He is?

 

He has just come back from injury layoff of over 3 months - started the season with 9 gola contributions in the first 14 games.

I was reading Mane's own comments just a week or so back saying he's struggling and finding the season hard (after a good start). 

[Scott_M]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

He is?

 

He has just come back from injury layoff of over 3 months - started the season with 9 gola contributions in the first 14 games.

 

He's been getting stick in Germany for his performances. 

[3 Stacks]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

He is?

 

He has just come back from injury layoff of over 3 months - started the season with 9 gola contributions in the first 14 games.

Bayern were buying a world class player and he's been merely decent when available.

[TheHowieLama]

They did the same with Sane.

[3 Stacks]

16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

They did the same with Sane.

Sane's never been at Mané's level.

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Sane's never been at Mané's level.

 

Mane was never considered one of the best young attackers in the game. If we all remember correctly a majority on here wanted to bomb Mane out of the club until he had a good run through the middle after AFCON. Sane may never reach the heights Mane did for 18 -24 months but he has always been a coveted player and Mane will never be that player again.

[3 Stacks]

8 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Mane was never considered one of the best young attackers in the game. If we all remember correctly a majority on here wanted to bomb Mane out of the club until he had a good run through the middle after AFCON. Sane may never reach the heights Mane did for 18 -24 months but he has always been a coveted player and Mane will never be that player again.

At his best, Mané was finishing top 5 for the Ballon d'Or. He finished 2nd for that last year. That is a player you expect huge things from when you buy him. 

 

Sane is and was never that calibre. He was a very good attacker with potential to be great but he never got there.