Klopp: This season is not a true reflection of who we are

[Section_31]

45 minutes ago, Preston Red said:

The Stam one was massive and showed that he meant business. Like you say, the greats had a ruthless streak and now Jürgen has channel his inner Mamadou Sahko anger levels and ship out the deadwood. We already know there's two definitely gone, Bobby has fallen off the cliff over the last couple of years, Curtis won't make it (sadly), Carvalho should go on loan and Hendo needs to be either shipped out or have the captaincy stripped. 

 

The sign of a great manager isn't building a great side, it's building another great side.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

There are cliques within all teams, our is no exception, and I believe one tight group is Trent, Hendo and Robbo.  

 

I'm wondering if they are at odds with a few players, including Virgil.  Perhaps with good reason, but it's plain as day that relationship breakdowns are at the root of this seemingly logic-defying season.  

 

FWIW, I'm on Team Trent.  No fucking way we sell him.  

Virgil is a wrongun.  Should have seen it ages ago. 

[an tha]

50 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

That is exactly what you said - change a couple fellas in the midfield - get a few who put themselves around a bit and the defense and attack are suddenly transformed. 

 

What makes you think Klopp is the guy to rebuild a side that many feel is lacking in every area?

No that isn't what i said at all.

 

We are a team who are totally disconnected at present because the midfield does not do what it needs to do to ensure we are connected as a tea.

 

It does not win enough ball like it used to - not enough ball to set us away in attack in as many dangerous areas against stretched teams as it used to and not enough ball when we are being attacked or countered to cut out danger before it leads to us being outnumbered at back/around the sides.

 

The cumulative effects on defenders being asked to cover huge gaps whilst outnumbered means we give up more chances, more dangerous chances to the opposition and as a result more goals.

 

The slow, less frequent service to our attack in less dangerous areas means we create fewer chances, fewer really good chances and therefore score less goals.

 

All these things also negatively affect confidence, decision making and morale.

 

The inability to make good changes and have good rotation because of permacrocks means we overplay players - we have ruined an 18 year old kids season because of this and overplayed players (especially ageing ones) levels drop off big time when overplayed/tired - again this negatively affects the whole team.

 

The numbers are shocking this season in key midfield metrics like tackles won, yards covered, 2nd balls won, forward passes, duels won etc and as a result our numbers for things like chances created, and chances given up are all in decline a d trending in the wrong directions - here is a thread on that - only 3 pages - have a look at it.

 

My view is the root cause of all the problems we have are because of the midfield - it is the worn out cog that is affecting all the other cogs - it places more stress on those other cogs, offers them less help that it needs to and therefore negatively impacts the other cogs performance - this in turn stops the whole machine from working properly.

 

Get back to having a midfield that wins more good ball, feeds the attack/full backs better, covers space and senses danger and snuffs it out more - as well as being able to press better and you'll soon see the team be more connected and more effective.

 

Add to that improved reliability and availability - ability to rotate more when need to/make changes in games and you'll also have a fresher less worn unit.

 

Teams are successfully targeting and have been all season our inability to win duels in midfield. So many goals this season the opposition have scored when we have lost duel after duel and they strolled through our midfield.

We used to be really good from broken play and were regularly winning second balls and then attacking teams into space.

 

When we were at our peak the midfield 3 just won the ball/won 2nd balls/got it from broken play and got it moved onto either the maruading full backs or one of the front 3 quickly and often when opposition were out of shape.

 

That then from there led to goals.....the midfielders did not have the assists, but they were the original source of so many of the goals.

 

Now we don't win as much ball in midfield/win 2nd balls/win balls from broken play and our passes from midfield are not being made to players in the same amount of space as they used to be and the players receiving those passes then can't be as creative and threatening as they were from those passes.

 

Our slowness is midfield has made us a slower team in many ways.

We don't win enough challenges and we don't win enough week in week out - or we do for 60 mins or so then our ageing players in midfield just can't sustain it - then we concede ball as  well as players just running away from our slow midfielders - Hendo gets done regularly now and ran away from in....It is sad watching him running in treacle as players stride away from him into space.

 

As Klopp has said after games this season the ball ended up in the gaps and spaces between our players too often - and that is because we lack mobility in midfield and because we are too far apart as a unit.

 

No legs, no intensity, no mobility, no physicality, no options on bench, no rotation options - a dreadful situation that other teams are exploting gleefully over and over again and that is hurting our abilty to attack and defend as effectively as we should.

I actually don't believe it is about team being fucked mentally as it happens, although confidence is clearly low - for me it is simply we no longer have the right attributes in key areas to do what we are trying to do and what we did so well 3 or so years ago.

When we were at our best we were an intense pressing side with lots of legs in the team who pressed the shit out of teams, ran teams ragged, squeezed games, forced and punished errors ruthlessly and outran, outfought and with the class we had often outclassed teams.....It was all about intensity and it was all about playing a high speed, high octane game.

Now you see things like pushing too many men forward too quickly, we take too many chances and we over commit......which is all well and good IF you have solidity around that and players with ability to plug gaps/recover and sense danger.....We don't now and teams are just picking us off at will - They never used to as we covered it.

It will continue to happen too....we simply don't have the tools to play how we try and play anymore and how we played when we did have those tools.

 

We used to have Hendo and Wijnaldum who covered the space when the full backs pushed on.....now Hendo has not got the legs, Wijnaldum is gone.

Now because of our lack of legs, broken play just means our back line gets exposed and teams walk through our midfield and onto our defence/keeper.

There is so much space, we are caught out of shape and the gaps are too big for our slow midfielders to close.

We if we we are not going to get in the players with the legs we need in there and ability to win those 2nd balls/win those battles/be in the right place to snuff out danger and put us on front foot will have to play within our limitations, and adopt a more compact shape.....we are currently embarrassingly easy to pass/play through.

We are being out pressed and our slow, unathletic midfield and forwards who used to lead our press so well are starting their pressing movements from further away and often not at all or too late.....and are simply much, much less effective.

When our midfielders were younger/more athletic and when our forwards pressed like fuck they were the triggers, when Bobby pressed the two wide forwards closed down the passing lanes and Hendo and the rest of the midfield gambled and closed down the opposition and we won the ball and got at and behind teams.....As that happened the centre halves pushed up and squeezed the play too.

Now the press is slow and half arsed and often non existent, players can't physically get there. That means we now get passed through at will and our centre halves get exposed.

 

We are trying to play same way we used to but are not doing the key parts of it anywhere near effectively enough because players are physically incapable of it now.

If you are going to play a high line then you have to press as a team and above all pick up loose balls/win those challenges when the ball breaks and opposition are committed....again we just don't do this right now.

I remember at the toilet this season as just one example in sadly too many TAA put in a long ball and the mancs cleared it....a couple of seasons ago Henderson would have mopped it up no sweat and we would have had a transition and probably punish them - instead his lack of athleticism and inability to pick up a loose ball meant we were exposed with half our team out of position and we get played through.....goal..... We have all seen it too many times this season.

We see young Elliott being shoehorned into midfield, the poor lad thinks like a forward/penalty area player all the time because that is what he is......We are trying to shoehorn the poor kid into midfield and ask him to do all that entails and he just does not have the skillset or mindset to do it and as a result he is exposed defensively and the resulting gaps, time and space lead to big problems for us.

We desperately need legs and some defensive nous in what is an urgent midfield rebuild, we need our forwards to be pressing properly again....Or we have to accept that we need to cut our cloth to suit and change how we play.....Stop committing so many players up the park and in advance of ball....be a bit more conservative.

We are too open, we play too attackingly with everyone pushing forward and players looking to do things quickly all the time....things like Elliott trying little flicks and looking to get ball into a dangerous area but not being switched on to the gaping hole behind him that when the flick does not come off the opposition are going to exploit.

 

We either buy the required tools or we have to accept that this set of players can no longer do the job they are asked to do to the level we need and change.

At present we look like a team who are trying to play the Jurgen Klopp way but without Jurgen Klopp players

 

Buying Jurgen Klopp players in the summer will IMO fix us.

[TheHowieLama]

Please tell me you have a voice app and didn't just type all that.

[Section_31]

5 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Please tell me you have a voice app and didn't just type all that.

Chat GPT.

[an tha]

9 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Please tell me you have a voice app and didn't just type all that.

Goodnight, lad.

 

That bedtime story will see you off.

[KMD7]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

That is exactly what you said - change a couple fellas in the midfield - get a few who put themselves around a bit and the defense and attack are suddenly transformed. 

 

What makes you think Klopp is the guy to rebuild a side that many feel is lacking in every area?

You want him gone Howie?

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, KMD7 said:

You want him gone Howie?

Nah @an tha is ok.

 

Serious QWERTY skills.

[Mook]

1 hour ago, an tha said:

No that isn't what i said at all.

 

We are a team who are totally disconnected at present because the midfield does not do what it needs to do to ensure we are connected as a tea.

 

It does not win enough ball like it used to - not enough ball to set us away in attack in as many dangerous areas against stretched teams as it used to and not enough ball when we are being attacked or countered to cut out danger before it leads to us being outnumbered at back/around the sides.

 

The cumulative effects on defenders being asked to cover huge gaps whilst outnumbered means we give up more chances, more dangerous chances to the opposition and as a result more goals.

 

The slow, less frequent service to our attack in less dangerous areas means we create fewer chances, fewer really good chances and therefore score less goals.

 

All these things also negatively affect confidence, decision making and morale.

 

The inability to make good changes and have good rotation because of permacrocks means we overplay players - we have ruined an 18 year old kids season because of this and overplayed players (especially ageing ones) levels drop off big time when overplayed/tired - again this negatively affects the whole team.

 

The numbers are shocking this season in key midfield metrics like tackles won, yards covered, 2nd balls won, forward passes, duels won etc and as a result our numbers for things like chances created, and chances given up are all in decline a d trending in the wrong directions - here is a thread on that - only 3 pages - have a look at it.

 

My view is the root cause of all the problems we have are because of the midfield - it is the worn out cog that is affecting all the other cogs - it places more stress on those other cogs, offers them less help that it needs to and therefore negatively impacts the other cogs performance - this in turn stops the whole machine from working properly.

 

Get back to having a midfield that wins more good ball, feeds the attack/full backs better, covers space and senses danger and snuffs it out more - as well as being able to press better and you'll soon see the team be more connected and more effective.

 

Add to that improved reliability and availability - ability to rotate more when need to/make changes in games and you'll also have a fresher less worn unit.

 

Teams are successfully targeting and have been all season our inability to win duels in midfield. So many goals this season the opposition have scored when we have lost duel after duel and they strolled through our midfield.

We used to be really good from broken play and were regularly winning second balls and then attacking teams into space.

 

When we were at our peak the midfield 3 just won the ball/won 2nd balls/got it from broken play and got it moved onto either the maruading full backs or one of the front 3 quickly and often when opposition were out of shape.

 

That then from there led to goals.....the midfielders did not have the assists, but they were the original source of so many of the goals.

 

Now we don't win as much ball in midfield/win 2nd balls/win balls from broken play and our passes from midfield are not being made to players in the same amount of space as they used to be and the players receiving those passes then can't be as creative and threatening as they were from those passes.

 

Our slowness is midfield has made us a slower team in many ways.

We don't win enough challenges and we don't win enough week in week out - or we do for 60 mins or so then our ageing players in midfield just can't sustain it - then we concede ball as  well as players just running away from our slow midfielders - Hendo gets done regularly now and ran away from in....It is sad watching him running in treacle as players stride away from him into space.

 

As Klopp has said after games this season the ball ended up in the gaps and spaces between our players too often - and that is because we lack mobility in midfield and because we are too far apart as a unit.

 

No legs, no intensity, no mobility, no physicality, no options on bench, no rotation options - a dreadful situation that other teams are exploting gleefully over and over again and that is hurting our abilty to attack and defend as effectively as we should.

I actually don't believe it is about team being fucked mentally as it happens, although confidence is clearly low - for me it is simply we no longer have the right attributes in key areas to do what we are trying to do and what we did so well 3 or so years ago.

When we were at our best we were an intense pressing side with lots of legs in the team who pressed the shit out of teams, ran teams ragged, squeezed games, forced and punished errors ruthlessly and outran, outfought and with the class we had often outclassed teams.....It was all about intensity and it was all about playing a high speed, high octane game.

Now you see things like pushing too many men forward too quickly, we take too many chances and we over commit......which is all well and good IF you have solidity around that and players with ability to plug gaps/recover and sense danger.....We don't now and teams are just picking us off at will - They never used to as we covered it.

It will continue to happen too....we simply don't have the tools to play how we try and play anymore and how we played when we did have those tools.

 

We used to have Hendo and Wijnaldum who covered the space when the full backs pushed on.....now Hendo has not got the legs, Wijnaldum is gone.

Now because of our lack of legs, broken play just means our back line gets exposed and teams walk through our midfield and onto our defence/keeper.

There is so much space, we are caught out of shape and the gaps are too big for our slow midfielders to close.

We if we we are not going to get in the players with the legs we need in there and ability to win those 2nd balls/win those battles/be in the right place to snuff out danger and put us on front foot will have to play within our limitations, and adopt a more compact shape.....we are currently embarrassingly easy to pass/play through.

We are being out pressed and our slow, unathletic midfield and forwards who used to lead our press so well are starting their pressing movements from further away and often not at all or too late.....and are simply much, much less effective.

When our midfielders were younger/more athletic and when our forwards pressed like fuck they were the triggers, when Bobby pressed the two wide forwards closed down the passing lanes and Hendo and the rest of the midfield gambled and closed down the opposition and we won the ball and got at and behind teams.....As that happened the centre halves pushed up and squeezed the play too.

Now the press is slow and half arsed and often non existent, players can't physically get there. That means we now get passed through at will and our centre halves get exposed.

 

We are trying to play same way we used to but are not doing the key parts of it anywhere near effectively enough because players are physically incapable of it now.

If you are going to play a high line then you have to press as a team and above all pick up loose balls/win those challenges when the ball breaks and opposition are committed....again we just don't do this right now.

I remember at the toilet this season as just one example in sadly too many TAA put in a long ball and the mancs cleared it....a couple of seasons ago Henderson would have mopped it up no sweat and we would have had a transition and probably punish them - instead his lack of athleticism and inability to pick up a loose ball meant we were exposed with half our team out of position and we get played through.....goal..... We have all seen it too many times this season.

We see young Elliott being shoehorned into midfield, the poor lad thinks like a forward/penalty area player all the time because that is what he is......We are trying to shoehorn the poor kid into midfield and ask him to do all that entails and he just does not have the skillset or mindset to do it and as a result he is exposed defensively and the resulting gaps, time and space lead to big problems for us.

We desperately need legs and some defensive nous in what is an urgent midfield rebuild, we need our forwards to be pressing properly again....Or we have to accept that we need to cut our cloth to suit and change how we play.....Stop committing so many players up the park and in advance of ball....be a bit more conservative.

We are too open, we play too attackingly with everyone pushing forward and players looking to do things quickly all the time....things like Elliott trying little flicks and looking to get ball into a dangerous area but not being switched on to the gaping hole behind him that when the flick does not come off the opposition are going to exploit.

 

We either buy the required tools or we have to accept that this set of players can no longer do the job they are asked to do to the level we need and change.

At present we look like a team who are trying to play the Jurgen Klopp way but without Jurgen Klopp players

 

Buying Jurgen Klopp players in the summer will IMO fix us.

 

I didn't realise you'd started writing for The Athletic.

[an tha]

5 minutes ago, Mook said:

 

I didn't realise you'd started writing for The Athletic.

Ah come on i know i am not very articulate but i'm not illiterate

[BeefStroganoff]

Utter drivel from someone who should know better.

[TheHowieLama]

2 hours ago, an tha said:

No that isn't what i said at all.

 

We are a team who are totally disconnected at present because the midfield does not do what it needs to do to ensure we are connected as a tea.

 

It does not win enough ball like it used to - not enough ball to set us away in attack in as many dangerous areas against stretched teams as it used to and not enough ball when we are being attacked or countered to cut out danger before it leads to us being outnumbered at back/around the sides.

 

The cumulative effects on defenders being asked to cover huge gaps whilst outnumbered means we give up more chances, more dangerous chances to the opposition and as a result more goals.

 

The slow, less frequent service to our attack in less dangerous areas means we create fewer chances, fewer really good chances and therefore score less goals.

 

All these things also negatively affect confidence, decision making and morale.

 

The inability to make good changes and have good rotation because of permacrocks means we overplay players - we have ruined an 18 year old kids season because of this and overplayed players (especially ageing ones) levels drop off big time when overplayed/tired - again this negatively affects the whole team.

 

The numbers are shocking this season in key midfield metrics like tackles won, yards covered, 2nd balls won, forward passes, duels won etc and as a result our numbers for things like chances created, and chances given up are all in decline a d trending in the wrong directions - here is a thread on that - only 3 pages - have a look at it.

 

My view is the root cause of all the problems we have are because of the midfield - it is the worn out cog that is affecting all the other cogs - it places more stress on those other cogs, offers them less help that it needs to and therefore negatively impacts the other cogs performance - this in turn stops the whole machine from working properly.

 

Get back to having a midfield that wins more good ball, feeds the attack/full backs better, covers space and senses danger and snuffs it out more - as well as being able to press better and you'll soon see the team be more connected and more effective.

 

Add to that improved reliability and availability - ability to rotate more when need to/make changes in games and you'll also have a fresher less worn unit.

 

Teams are successfully targeting and have been all season our inability to win duels in midfield. So many goals this season the opposition have scored when we have lost duel after duel and they strolled through our midfield.

We used to be really good from broken play and were regularly winning second balls and then attacking teams into space.

 

When we were at our peak the midfield 3 just won the ball/won 2nd balls/got it from broken play and got it moved onto either the maruading full backs or one of the front 3 quickly and often when opposition were out of shape.

 

That then from there led to goals.....the midfielders did not have the assists, but they were the original source of so many of the goals.

 

Now we don't win as much ball in midfield/win 2nd balls/win balls from broken play and our passes from midfield are not being made to players in the same amount of space as they used to be and the players receiving those passes then can't be as creative and threatening as they were from those passes.

 

Our slowness is midfield has made us a slower team in many ways.

We don't win enough challenges and we don't win enough week in week out - or we do for 60 mins or so then our ageing players in midfield just can't sustain it - then we concede ball as  well as players just running away from our slow midfielders - Hendo gets done regularly now and ran away from in....It is sad watching him running in treacle as players stride away from him into space.

 

As Klopp has said after games this season the ball ended up in the gaps and spaces between our players too often - and that is because we lack mobility in midfield and because we are too far apart as a unit.

 

No legs, no intensity, no mobility, no physicality, no options on bench, no rotation options - a dreadful situation that other teams are exploting gleefully over and over again and that is hurting our abilty to attack and defend as effectively as we should.

I actually don't believe it is about team being fucked mentally as it happens, although confidence is clearly low - for me it is simply we no longer have the right attributes in key areas to do what we are trying to do and what we did so well 3 or so years ago.

When we were at our best we were an intense pressing side with lots of legs in the team who pressed the shit out of teams, ran teams ragged, squeezed games, forced and punished errors ruthlessly and outran, outfought and with the class we had often outclassed teams.....It was all about intensity and it was all about playing a high speed, high octane game.

Now you see things like pushing too many men forward too quickly, we take too many chances and we over commit......which is all well and good IF you have solidity around that and players with ability to plug gaps/recover and sense danger.....We don't now and teams are just picking us off at will - They never used to as we covered it.

It will continue to happen too....we simply don't have the tools to play how we try and play anymore and how we played when we did have those tools.

 

We used to have Hendo and Wijnaldum who covered the space when the full backs pushed on.....now Hendo has not got the legs, Wijnaldum is gone.

Now because of our lack of legs, broken play just means our back line gets exposed and teams walk through our midfield and onto our defence/keeper.

There is so much space, we are caught out of shape and the gaps are too big for our slow midfielders to close.

We if we we are not going to get in the players with the legs we need in there and ability to win those 2nd balls/win those battles/be in the right place to snuff out danger and put us on front foot will have to play within our limitations, and adopt a more compact shape.....we are currently embarrassingly easy to pass/play through.

We are being out pressed and our slow, unathletic midfield and forwards who used to lead our press so well are starting their pressing movements from further away and often not at all or too late.....and are simply much, much less effective.

When our midfielders were younger/more athletic and when our forwards pressed like fuck they were the triggers, when Bobby pressed the two wide forwards closed down the passing lanes and Hendo and the rest of the midfield gambled and closed down the opposition and we won the ball and got at and behind teams.....As that happened the centre halves pushed up and squeezed the play too.

Now the press is slow and half arsed and often non existent, players can't physically get there. That means we now get passed through at will and our centre halves get exposed.

 

We are trying to play same way we used to but are not doing the key parts of it anywhere near effectively enough because players are physically incapable of it now.

If you are going to play a high line then you have to press as a team and above all pick up loose balls/win those challenges when the ball breaks and opposition are committed....again we just don't do this right now.

I remember at the toilet this season as just one example in sadly too many TAA put in a long ball and the mancs cleared it....a couple of seasons ago Henderson would have mopped it up no sweat and we would have had a transition and probably punish them - instead his lack of athleticism and inability to pick up a loose ball meant we were exposed with half our team out of position and we get played through.....goal..... We have all seen it too many times this season.

We see young Elliott being shoehorned into midfield, the poor lad thinks like a forward/penalty area player all the time because that is what he is......We are trying to shoehorn the poor kid into midfield and ask him to do all that entails and he just does not have the skillset or mindset to do it and as a result he is exposed defensively and the resulting gaps, time and space lead to big problems for us.

We desperately need legs and some defensive nous in what is an urgent midfield rebuild, we need our forwards to be pressing properly again....Or we have to accept that we need to cut our cloth to suit and change how we play.....Stop committing so many players up the park and in advance of ball....be a bit more conservative.

We are too open, we play too attackingly with everyone pushing forward and players looking to do things quickly all the time....things like Elliott trying little flicks and looking to get ball into a dangerous area but not being switched on to the gaping hole behind him that when the flick does not come off the opposition are going to exploit.

 

We either buy the required tools or we have to accept that this set of players can no longer do the job they are asked to do to the level we need and change.

At present we look like a team who are trying to play the Jurgen Klopp way but without Jurgen Klopp players

 

Buying Jurgen Klopp players in the summer will IMO fix us.

 

 

Still sounds like everything hinges on some new midfielders.

 

Why do you think Klopp is the man to lead a rebuild that is certainly more comprehensive than that? What has he done to make you think he is up to that?

[CapeRed]

1 hour ago, an tha said:

No that isn't what i said at all.

 

We are a team who are totally disconnected at present because the midfield does not do what it needs to do to ensure we are connected as a tea.

 

It does not win enough ball like it used to - not enough ball to set us away in attack in as many dangerous areas against stretched teams as it used to and not enough ball when we are being attacked or countered to cut out danger before it leads to us being outnumbered at back/around the sides.

 

The cumulative effects on defenders being asked to cover huge gaps whilst outnumbered means we give up more chances, more dangerous chances to the opposition and as a result more goals.

 

The slow, less frequent service to our attack in less dangerous areas means we create fewer chances, fewer really good chances and therefore score less goals.

 

All these things also negatively affect confidence, decision making and morale.

 

The inability to make good changes and have good rotation because of permacrocks means we overplay players - we have ruined an 18 year old kids season because of this and overplayed players (especially ageing ones) levels drop off big time when overplayed/tired - again this negatively affects the whole team.

 

The numbers are shocking this season in key midfield metrics like tackles won, yards covered, 2nd balls won, forward passes, duels won etc and as a result our numbers for things like chances created, and chances given up are all in decline a d trending in the wrong directions - here is a thread on that - only 3 pages - have a look at it.

 

My view is the root cause of all the problems we have are because of the midfield - it is the worn out cog that is affecting all the other cogs - it places more stress on those other cogs, offers them less help that it needs to and therefore negatively impacts the other cogs performance - this in turn stops the whole machine from working properly.

 

Get back to having a midfield that wins more good ball, feeds the attack/full backs better, covers space and senses danger and snuffs it out more - as well as being able to press better and you'll soon see the team be more connected and more effective.

 

Add to that improved reliability and availability - ability to rotate more when need to/make changes in games and you'll also have a fresher less worn unit.

 

Teams are successfully targeting and have been all season our inability to win duels in midfield. So many goals this season the opposition have scored when we have lost duel after duel and they strolled through our midfield.

We used to be really good from broken play and were regularly winning second balls and then attacking teams into space.

 

When we were at our peak the midfield 3 just won the ball/won 2nd balls/got it from broken play and got it moved onto either the maruading full backs or one of the front 3 quickly and often when opposition were out of shape.

 

That then from there led to goals.....the midfielders did not have the assists, but they were the original source of so many of the goals.

 

Now we don't win as much ball in midfield/win 2nd balls/win balls from broken play and our passes from midfield are not being made to players in the same amount of space as they used to be and the players receiving those passes then can't be as creative and threatening as they were from those passes.

 

Our slowness is midfield has made us a slower team in many ways.

We don't win enough challenges and we don't win enough week in week out - or we do for 60 mins or so then our ageing players in midfield just can't sustain it - then we concede ball as  well as players just running away from our slow midfielders - Hendo gets done regularly now and ran away from in....It is sad watching him running in treacle as players stride away from him into space.

 

As Klopp has said after games this season the ball ended up in the gaps and spaces between our players too often - and that is because we lack mobility in midfield and because we are too far apart as a unit.

 

No legs, no intensity, no mobility, no physicality, no options on bench, no rotation options - a dreadful situation that other teams are exploting gleefully over and over again and that is hurting our abilty to attack and defend as effectively as we should.

I actually don't believe it is about team being fucked mentally as it happens, although confidence is clearly low - for me it is simply we no longer have the right attributes in key areas to do what we are trying to do and what we did so well 3 or so years ago.

When we were at our best we were an intense pressing side with lots of legs in the team who pressed the shit out of teams, ran teams ragged, squeezed games, forced and punished errors ruthlessly and outran, outfought and with the class we had often outclassed teams.....It was all about intensity and it was all about playing a high speed, high octane game.

Now you see things like pushing too many men forward too quickly, we take too many chances and we over commit......which is all well and good IF you have solidity around that and players with ability to plug gaps/recover and sense danger.....We don't now and teams are just picking us off at will - They never used to as we covered it.

It will continue to happen too....we simply don't have the tools to play how we try and play anymore and how we played when we did have those tools.

 

We used to have Hendo and Wijnaldum who covered the space when the full backs pushed on.....now Hendo has not got the legs, Wijnaldum is gone.

Now because of our lack of legs, broken play just means our back line gets exposed and teams walk through our midfield and onto our defence/keeper.

There is so much space, we are caught out of shape and the gaps are too big for our slow midfielders to close.

We if we we are not going to get in the players with the legs we need in there and ability to win those 2nd balls/win those battles/be in the right place to snuff out danger and put us on front foot will have to play within our limitations, and adopt a more compact shape.....we are currently embarrassingly easy to pass/play through.

We are being out pressed and our slow, unathletic midfield and forwards who used to lead our press so well are starting their pressing movements from further away and often not at all or too late.....and are simply much, much less effective.

When our midfielders were younger/more athletic and when our forwards pressed like fuck they were the triggers, when Bobby pressed the two wide forwards closed down the passing lanes and Hendo and the rest of the midfield gambled and closed down the opposition and we won the ball and got at and behind teams.....As that happened the centre halves pushed up and squeezed the play too.

Now the press is slow and half arsed and often non existent, players can't physically get there. That means we now get passed through at will and our centre halves get exposed.

 

We are trying to play same way we used to but are not doing the key parts of it anywhere near effectively enough because players are physically incapable of it now.

If you are going to play a high line then you have to press as a team and above all pick up loose balls/win those challenges when the ball breaks and opposition are committed....again we just don't do this right now.

I remember at the toilet this season as just one example in sadly too many TAA put in a long ball and the mancs cleared it....a couple of seasons ago Henderson would have mopped it up no sweat and we would have had a transition and probably punish them - instead his lack of athleticism and inability to pick up a loose ball meant we were exposed with half our team out of position and we get played through.....goal..... We have all seen it too many times this season.

We see young Elliott being shoehorned into midfield, the poor lad thinks like a forward/penalty area player all the time because that is what he is......We are trying to shoehorn the poor kid into midfield and ask him to do all that entails and he just does not have the skillset or mindset to do it and as a result he is exposed defensively and the resulting gaps, time and space lead to big problems for us.

We desperately need legs and some defensive nous in what is an urgent midfield rebuild, we need our forwards to be pressing properly again....Or we have to accept that we need to cut our cloth to suit and change how we play.....Stop committing so many players up the park and in advance of ball....be a bit more conservative.

We are too open, we play too attackingly with everyone pushing forward and players looking to do things quickly all the time....things like Elliott trying little flicks and looking to get ball into a dangerous area but not being switched on to the gaping hole behind him that when the flick does not come off the opposition are going to exploit.

 

We either buy the required tools or we have to accept that this set of players can no longer do the job they are asked to do to the level we need and change.

At present we look like a team who are trying to play the Jurgen Klopp way but without Jurgen Klopp players

 

Buying Jurgen Klopp players in the summer will IMO fix us.

Great post . The fact that we are gassed after 45 minutes tells a tale. For the life of me I don’t understand why Jurgen keeps playing Elliot at right midfield  it leaves Trent without cover too often .

[an tha]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

 

Still sounds like everything hinges on some new midfielders.

 

Why do you think Klopp is the man to lead a rebuild that is certainly more comprehensive than that? What has he done to make you think he is up to that?

I do think it mostly hinges on new midfielders, yes - my belief is as i have said that it is the underlying root cause of our problems.

 

As for the rebuild being more comprehensive than that - i disagree. The attack has been remodelled, although at present it feels like it is a jigsaw where the pieces aren't in the right places yet - but i feel that will come - Nunez, Diaz and Gakpo are all relatively new signings up there.

 

There is an argument for a new centre half, but that is about it (the midfield rebuild aside) - the fullbacks are getting it down the banks, but again my view is fix midfield you go a long, long way to fixing them.

 

So again - for me it isn't a massive all over rebuild.

 

Klopp has shown he can set us up to be a fearsome outfit, based on all the chatacterisitics being in the squad i talked about in my long post above - i see nothing to suggest he can't do it again and from a better base than he had to start from before...

 

It looks awful at moment and it is, but for me a new midfield, the right midfield, one that can do what our set up needs it to do for the whole thing to work properly fixes us - time will tell...

 

Let me ask you - what do you think we need and who should lead it?

[an tha]

10 minutes ago, CapeRed said:

Great post . The fact that we are gassed after 45 minutes tells a tale. For the life of me I don’t understand why Jurgen keeps playing Elliot at right midfield  it leaves Trent without cover too often .

Aye the days when the right sided midfielder just dropped in while Trent was doing his thing higher up and when the right midfielder offered protection and stopped danger down that side are gone - teams now just exploit that fact over and over and eventually get joy as centre halves are pulled across and or Trent and the centre halves are just outnumbered/floundering to get back with a midfield that has been bypassed/run by and through.

[TheHowieLama]

48 minutes ago, an tha said:

Let me ask you - what do you think we need and who should lead it?

 

I don't know - that is why I asked you what made you think Klopp could do it. To my point before, I doubt we (read Klopp) will ever have a Balon D'or level CB AND two of the greatest wide attackers (Golden Boots) our club has ever seen at the same time again. 

So if that is what is needed for this "system" to work then we are wasting our time harping on the midfield.

[the chimp]

4 hours ago, an tha said:

I actually don't believe it is about team being fucked mentally as it happens, although confidence is clearly low - for me it is simply we no longer have the right attributes in key areas to do what we are trying to do and what we did so well 3 or so years ago...

 

I agree with all of that. As such I am baffled at why we're persisting with the same tactics. The way the team is set up does not suit the current abilities of our players. Indeed, we seem to have bought players who do not actually suit that system/the system the manager seems intent on playing. I'll caveat all of that by acknowledging I have complete trust in him to fix things, but I'm just genuinely at a loss for what the fuck is going on with our tactics this season and our recruitment post-Gini leaving.

[Jordy Brouwer]

11 hours ago, an tha said:

When he has the right parts for the engine he'll make it run properly.

 

Of course if we fail to get them, then we are in trouble - but I believe he knows exactly what he needs.

 

Thing is if and when he gets them - the fix is actually quite simple.

 

We will reconnnect the team and be better going both ways - back to maximising our strengths and minimising our weaknesses.

 

At present the parts we are using do the exact opposite of those things.

 

Exactly but thats really the problem. Kloppball is the most high maintanance system in existance. Way back when Virgil got injured/assaulted everything fell apart. Now legs have gone in midfield everything has fallen apart. 

 

Because of our high line and pushed up fullbacks either everything works or nothing works and there's no plan B or in between. If the press is working it can be an awesome machine that can smash any team in existance - we effectively choke the opposition out. If not well...

 

In retrospect the 7-2 against Villa, widely written off as an anomoly in a strange season was a really flashing warning of this dynamic.

 

People tell me Klopp was more flexible at Dortmund (he played with a number 10!) but so what? Since he's been here he approaches football with about as much flexibility as a Wahabi approaches life. Therefore the "right parts" you mention simply have to be in place and currently they aren't. 

 

 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

The midfield issue needs to be resolved. No doubt this season it’s the main reason we’ve been so poor. Apart from that of course the squad needs maintenance, but no big changes are required in defence or attack.

 

Many were saying we needed a complete overhaul in 20/21. They were wrong, once the defence was back to normal we were brilliant. Perhaps the same people that are saying now we need a complete rebuild. 
 

If Klopp is backed and we have the financial power to fix the midfield, and do the necessary normal adjustments to the rest of the squad, then we’ll be fine. In addition to 3-4 midfielders we need a new CB and probably a new young forward for the future and as a backup short term.

[Red74]

Klopps always had The Quit in him and now it’s infected the team. We lost the league last season with his terrible Kieta substitution against spurs at home and another European final when he froze when we went behind. 
 

Everyone’s been saying let’s write this season off but why should we. City haven’t and we only played 2 games more than them last season. We spent as much as them in the summer and their expensive midfielder hasn’t played a game through injury yet they haven’t made any excuses.
 

They had another makeshift defence out yesterday and we wouldn't lay a glove on them whereas ours keep falling to pieces at the 1st sign of trouble. Baldy had a plan for us and we had nothing to come back at them. This teams got more than enough talent in it to be right up there but it’s been allowed to get away with murder because the manager can’t or won’t change what’s clearly not working. 

Can’t keep saying he’ll get it right next season when he can’t get it right for our next away game. 

[Freddo]

Klopps always had the quit in him. Is this for real. Honestly do you read what you write. That is outrageous. Fuck off. 

[Scott_M]

15 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I don't think it's a confidence thing, it's a desire thing. Players like Virg and Salah don't lose confidence. They seemingly no longer give a fuck.

 

Trent's boat always looks like a kid who's been made to go and visit his nan but wants to be at home on his X Box.

When I say belief, we certainly aren’t the mentality monsters of previous seasons - the side who’d brush off going behind to come back to win or push and push and push until the last kick for a winner (which we usually found).

 

The slightest bit of adversity and we crumble. Roy Evans’ sides had more backbone than we currently do. 
 

Last season we went behind twice at the Ethiad and found equalisers. We still believed we could get a result. We attacked with purpose. First half yesterday was Ok, as soon as we went behind you could see we were done, the players visibly shrank. 
 

Same with Real Madrid at Anfield. Obviously disappointing to go in at half time at 2-2 (especially the way the second came about) but again, conceded early again and all belief disappears (it likely disappeared with the equaliser). We’ve been in far worse positions than 3-2 after 46 / 180+ minutes of a CL tie and turned it round. 
 

Similar in the Bernabéu. I know it was largely mission impossible, we played Ok but at no point did we look like we actually believed we could do something. 

You might have a point on desire but I think that’s hard to quantify. After giving everything last season to fall short for the two big ones must have a psychological impact on the players.
 

I wonder what would have happened if we had lost to Spurs in Madrid? 97 points, one of the greatest CL comebacks of all time and then end the season with nothing.

 

Look at how Spurs reacted. They gave everything for Pochettino, title challenges, dramatic CL run and then come the end of his cycle, ultimately won nothing. Didn’t refresh the side, poor start to the next season, he’s sacked and Spurs haven’t looked anywhere near as good since - Are we in a similar position now? 

Klopp obviously won’t get sacked but he’s in a position now where we do need a serious shake up. I assume playing for Klopp is super intense and demanding. Have players reached that Spurs point of “We give it everything and it’s still not enough so what’s the point?”. 
 

To keep the message fresh, the playing staff needs to be kept fresh. I mean that in terms younger, hungrier players (which has been done to death) and keeping the existing players mentally fresh?

 

Is it the fact we ended the season on a low, a shorter summer break, lack of recruits, injuries, a compressed schedule and a bad start all created a perfect shit storm this season? There are a lot of “FFS” moments there that could all pile and pile and pile on top of each other. 

I think too many have fallen into a comfort zone and everybody needs to be put back on their toes. Obviously this isn’t something Klopp tends to do, IMO, we need a high profile sacrifice in the summer. Somebody who has previously been viewed as untouchable. Given mainstays of Klopps reign in Firmino and maybe Matip & Milner are leaving, it would be a bold call and I’m not sure who it would be.

 

I also think the captains group needs looking at. The way TAA gave up yesterday for the 4th goal isn’t captain material (he’s been doing this shit all season) and VVD’s form hasn’t been that others should be aspiring too. IMO, Alisson needs to move up the pecking order. 

 

I obviously don’t know the full answer, the ins & outs of everything or know if there is any basis in anything I’ve said. I’m just thinking out loud.

 

If we could finish strongly and snatch 4th (my view hasn’t changed from yesterday and I still think we can), have a longer summer break and refresh the squad with top quality players, I do think we could be ready to fully go again next season.

[Freddo]

I think that is about right Scott in terms of a big sacrifice. Something that sends a shot across the whole group. I’d go for Henderson either moved or stripped of the captaincy. Trent demoted from leadership group and Alli being made captain. All those coming to contract end to go. Fabinho to be sold. Squad fillers like Tsimikas and Jones to also go. 
If we get a good offer for Jota, we’d be mad to not consider it. 

[an tha]

7 hours ago, the chimp said:

 

I agree with all of that. As such I am baffled at why we're persisting with the same tactics. The way the team is set up does not suit the current abilities of our players. Indeed, we seem to have bought players who do not actually suit that system/the system the manager seems intent on playing. I'll caveat all of that by acknowledging I have complete trust in him to fix things, but I'm just genuinely at a loss for what the fuck is going on with our tactics this season and our recruitment post-Gini leaving.

What we have or haven't done with midfield is IMO absolutely baffling - literally makes no sense at all and is a total clusterfuck.

[Red74]

25 minutes ago, Freddo said:

Klopps always had the quit in him. Is this for real. Honestly do you read what you write. That is outrageous. Fuck off. 

I’m right. You’re wrong