Defending the Defenders

[silverlining]

This post has been bubbling away in my subconscious for ages, and I suppose it was this weekend's England vs Spain game that has finally prodded me into posting it on here.

 

I love defenders. I love defending. There. I've said it. I feel better.

Because it appears to have become a dirty word. Being a "good defender".

 

And please, don't see this as a post about Jamie Carragher - who I do think is one of the best defenders to ever play for us, yes, but my all-time favourite Liverpool player (also a defender, coincidentally) was a very different type of beast, Alan Hansen.

 

I read an interview with Xabi in the Sunday Times, and he mentioned his disbelief that acadamy players being interviewed for the programme listed "tackling" as a strength. Now, again, this is one of my favourite Liverpool players, but really? Fuck off.

 

I love tackling. It's fucking brilliant. Watching Didi, Gerrard, Souness, McMahon bashing into players is amazing entertainment. And talking of Spain, I loved seeing Parker diving into Iniesta and Xavi. They looked properly bemused and it was ace.

 

I've had some of best Anfield nights watching Didi Hamann and Sami Hyypia put in some of the greatest defensive displays I've ever seen against Barcelona and Roma. Exhilirating "they shall not pass" defensive masterclasses.

 

And this goes back to my point. Defending. We've all seen on here over the years the usual complaints about certain defensive players not being able to attack. The eulogies for the likes of Rio, Cafu, Maicon, Pique (ignoring his success is partly due to the more agricultural skills of Puyol) and Agger. Ball-playing defenders. Who can "contribute" to the attack. Who "cherish" possession.

 

I blame Barcelona (and to a lesser extent United) for this obssession. And I fucking hate those tippy-tappy tika-taka bellends so much. Because everyone wants to be Barcelona. But unless you have the vast resources, academy system and huge wages that they can afford, nobody can be Barcelona. So don't fucking try.

 

And now onto United. I've read countless posts on here about how United have proved that you don't need to defend, or even have a midfield, to win trophies, because United have shown that all you need is wingers and goals. They've attempted to become Barca-lite. Which only works if you don't have to play Barca, because then you get your arse kicked.

 

Well, that only goes to show that these things are cyclical, because they aren't going to win the title. And Baconface knows that his lack of quality in the middle of the park (even playing his best striker in there to shore up the gaps) is going to cost him. The best team in the Premiership is Man Shitty.

 

A team with a superlative defensive basis, built upon last seasons efforts (when everyone mocked Manicini's efforts to be hard to beat) and hard-working, quality players - who know how to make them a tough team to play against - like Kompany, De Jong, Barry, Toure, Milner.

 

Because great sides always have a good defense, and a quality CM. It's a general rule. It's what you need: a solid platform that allows you to build on that, and then win games.

 

I fucking hate high-scoring draws. I didn't enjoy the 4-4 draw with Arsenal any more than I enjoyed the 4-4 draw with Everton the night before Kenny resigned. That's not football. As Mourinho said once, it's a basketball score.

 

Give me a hard-won 1-0 any day. The best teams in the Premiership have been those teams who can grind out wins when they have to. Who have grit and steel throughout the team. Mourinho's Chelsea. Wenger's early Arsenal teams.

 

What all great teams need is a blend. A mixture of the sublime and the "Row Z". And defenders who can defend are critical. Tackling midfielders who can bark and shout and brutalise opponents are vital. Yes, mix in the fantasy. Give me Luis Garcia, Luis Suarez, Robbie Fowler and Fernando Torres. But also give me Didi Hamann, Steve McMahon and Jamie Carragher.

 

Give me defenders.

[Kevin D]

If it wasn't for the parts praising Carragher and Alonso, I'd have thought this sounds a lot like Rafa.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

If it wasn't for the parts praising Carragher and Alonso, I'd have thought this sounds a lot like Rafa.

 

Are you fishing again?

[Jairzinho]

If it wasn't for the parts praising Alonso, I'd have thought this sounds a lot like Hodgson.

 

Agreed.

[jsjazz]

Decent rant that, for Silverlining.

Defending and tackling, or rather tough tackling, are not the same however. Didi and Sami didn't steam into tackles, and relied more on being in the right place and their ability to determine which way the attacker was going to go (rather like Lucas ;-). Souness and McMahon used to steam into tackles, and turn 40-60 challenges into 60-40 challenges. Last player I saw doing that for Liverpool was the younger Gerrard. Times have changed, and you don't want defenders steaming into tackles- too easy to give away penalties and get red cards. Carragher does still fly into the odd tackle, but usually well away from the box, and more often than not mistimes it and gets a card.

I agree though, defending is the essential basis for success.

[JagSquared]

Agreed. My favourite liverpool players in recent years have been defensive players hyypia and hamman being two. As with the poster above not tough tackling just awesome tacklibg. Defending is an art i want to see more of.

 

I think our team is a little "weak" at the moment would love a cm with bite in our team to scare our opposition into mistakes - high energy not breaking players as i think were overrun in the middle too much (not a invitation for you to launch into a lucas bashing post - i think we know how you feel).

 

The only thing that beats a top defender is a top keeper. Being a shit keeper myself i appreciate them a hell of a lot.

[xerxes]

I agree with the gist of that- if not some of the conclusions.

 

One of the unexpected pleasures of this season has been how, with relatively little noise, the defence has been tightened up into one of the more effective Pl units. Working out what life would be like post Alonso ,who protected the defence with his possession, and Masch with his positioning and tackling, did not come easy, but now we seem to be there.

 

Carra is an interesting one. He IS a bona fide legend, but of late his game has suffered as time and tactics have moved on ( as has John Terry). The best defending is often hardly noticed, the attacker doesn’t even get the ball, a skill which Agger is so adept at.

 

I am not so sure about your criticism of Barca. Traditional English football is about players doing “their job” ( World Cup 66, jack Charlton wins the ball, and passes it to Bobby Charlton, LFC 2006 Carra wins the ball and passes it to Gerrard). The Barca model demands that Carra could do the job just as well as Gerrard. Ironically your list of “row Z’ers” really only comprises Carra, now. Hamman and McMahon won AND kept the ball.

 

Historically, three points for a win ended the absolute primacy of defending, it was about not losing the game , and then winning it. Now you could draw every league game in a season, unbeaten and get relegated.

 

The fundamental difference between defending and attacking is that with defending, organisation can go an awful long way, great dfences tend to be units rather than individually great players. Attacking is about the unconventional, and the unexpected, the antithesis of defending which is what makes Suarez ( and Ballotelli) so valuable.

[VladimirIlyich]

Dont forget the most important defender of all,the Goalkeeper.

[silverlining]

Dont forget the most important defender of all,the Goalkeeper.

 

Well, that's a given. Although it is interesting that, since the removal of the backpass rule, keepers have had to be far more adept with their feet, quicker around the pitch, and be able to read the game better.

 

It's almost enough now to say that if a keeper isn't good at actually kicking a football accurately or far, he won't ever be world-class.

 

The days of being a "good shotstopper" and therefore being good enough seem to be long gone.

[lifetime fan]

Franco Baresi is probably my most favouritest non LFC player ever so agree with the rant SL.

[silverlining]

And it's not just about "old-fashioned defenders" either.

 

The amount of times I've seen the likes of Scott Parker derided for being some kind of clogger from a bygone age, just because he isn't fucking Xavi, does my head in. He's a fucking good player. They don't all need to make nice triangular patterns and play tippy-tappy bellend football in order to be a great midfielder.

 

Look at the likes of Roy Keane, Vieira, and Petit for God's sake.

[Jairzinho]

And it's not just about "old-fashioned defenders" either.

 

The amount of times I've seen the likes of Scott Parker derided for being some kind of clogger from a bygone age, just because he isn't fucking Xavi, does my head in. He's a fucking good player. They don't all need to make nice triangular patterns and play tippy-tappy bellend football in order to be a great midfielder.

 

Look at the likes of Roy Keane, Vieira, and Petit for God's sake.

 

Why do you think the best teams in the world don't have these type of players now?

 

(Question isn't loaded, genuinely don't know either)

[Bob]

For me, this comes down to a fundamental difference in football in different countries. I read Xabi’s interview and left with similar feelings. I do however think that much of that spin was placed by the way the article was written by Sid Lowe, rather than the specific words of Xabi.

 

Xabi loved a tackle when he first joined us. He was as physical as anyone at times. Remember his stamping the ground to get rid of a broken ankle against Chelsea?

 

This is part of the reason I love football, but can’t be arsed watching Italian or Spanish games. The pace, the aggression and the full tilt tackling. Yes, technically the players in those leagues are possibly superior, but ‘our’ football is so much more exciting to watch. It’s no doubt part of the reason England can’t perform in international tournaments, but who cares about England? Not me.

 

Would Flanagan or Robinson have stood out in their cameos at the end of last season half as much without thumping, well timed, tackles? Flanagan especially.

 

The rubbish spouted by Alonso that it’s a effectively only something you need if you’ve balls’d up something else is nonsense. If you’re a defender, tackling is not only a skill, but a major asset. Being able to time a tackle, win the ball and come away with it, is a platform that builds the teams play, so very often. If you can only ever shepherd an attacking player, you’ll get beaten many times, either by touch, skill, pace or movement.

 

Also, tackling doesn’t just come in the form of sliding across the ground getting your shorts muddy. Xabi’s half way goal against Newcastle came from a great tackle. He was standing and nicked the ball, but it was a tackle no doubt.

 

Would we have won the semi in 05 without Carra, Djimi and others putting their body on the line and throwing themselves into tackles perfectly timed?

 

The biggest problem facing the tackle is cheating gobshites who don’t like it up ‘em. Busquets is the worst I’ve seen for it. The more the players from other leagues shit out of tackles, the more get put down as fouls, the more tackling in itself becomes a bad thing. That analysts and pundits have so readily taken on the line of “if there’s contact it’s a foul” and “it doesn’t matter if he got the ball first, its still a foul” is unfortunately a big part of the demise of the tackle. At least 90% of the football I watch is English vs English, and I don’t care for foreign footy too much, so if our game has to lose the key elements of tackling from it, it’ll get to the point of me not watching much footy at all.

 

I remember watching argie and dutch football on channel 5 when I was a student. Games with technically good players that just missed something. That something was the ability to make good, crunching tackles. The argie football had 3 outcomes when a team had possession. 1. They passed it until someone had a shot or cross; 2. Someone lost the ball through a sloppy pass/good interception/ran out of play; or 3. A freekick was given. It was utterly boring to watch, however nice the skill was and however good the game was, it was lacking.

 

Ultimately, there is nothing wrong in football being different in different places, and we should never lose our identity. Modern football is moving ever more closer to a non-contact sport, and when that finally happens, it will lead to us all wishing we could go back to the crunching tackles that are currently much maligned.

[Guest LFD]

Great rant that Silverlining, I'd rep that if I could.

 

I also enjoyed the England vs Spain match, because it showed you can win matches by using many different styles. England defended really well and I thought Parker, Lescott and Cole were all in particular superb. England would have won by more goals had Rooney, Gerrard and Young been the front players, rather than the woeful trio of Walcott, Milner and Bent.

 

Give me a full back or defender who can defend first and attack second. I love watching Agger in possession, but his first job is to be a defender and luckily for him this season he has been boss in both regards.

 

I do find this post good, but I find it odd coming from you Silverlining, as you say you appreciate a good defensive player, but then you fail to appreciate any of Lucas Leiva as a player. OK he's not in the class of Hamann or Mascherano - but then again not many defensive midfielders in the Premiership are at present.

 

I thought this topic was going to be about defending our current back four. To be honest, I didn't realise that we had the second best defensive record in the league, quite an achievement given the individual mistakes we have seen at the back from Carragher, Flanagan, Reina etc. It also makes me think maybe my criticism of Adam's tackling is misjudged and perhaps his strengths in possession do outweigh is weaknesses.

 

Another thing which is sort of on a similar topic. I had in my head that we were performing much better last season under Dalglish than we have been so far this season. As in the summer we saw threads and stats saying we achieved more points than any other team when Dalglish took over bar Chelsea. This infact isn't true, we are performing about the same this season as we were last:

 

This season first XI league games:

 

Played - 11

Points - 19

GF - 14

GA - 10

 

Dalglish’s first XI league games last season:

 

Played - 11

Points - 20

GF - 17

GA -10

 

Dalglish’s other seven league games last season:

 

Played - 7

Points - 13

GF - 17

GA - 6

 

I am as guilty as anyone this season of criticising the team, being ultra critical I suspect. But we really aren't too far away from being a really good team, finding the right balance between defense and attack - that's without having Gerrard.

 

You think about the silly mistakes we have made at the back (uncharacteristic in Reina's case), the amount of missed chances we have had, the amount of times we have hit the woodwork, not forgetting the bad luck we've had in some games with poor ref decisions - such as Sunderland at home, Stoke away etc... and you realise we are doing a lot of things right and sooner rather than later we are going to go on a run!

[Guest LFD]

Why do you think the best teams in the world don't have these type of players now?

 

(Question isn't loaded, genuinely don't know either)

 

Well Barca are the best and they have Busquets.

 

Man City are arguably the best in this league and they have De Jong.

 

A ball winner and protecter of the defense is still an extremely important position.

[piscinin]

Franco Baresi is probably my most favouritest non LFC player ever so agree with the rant SL.

 

Great nickname too!

[xerxes]

For me, this comes down to a fundamental difference in football in different countries. I read Xabi’s interview and left with similar feelings. I do however think that much of that spin was placed by the way the article was written by Sid Lowe, rather than the specific words of Xabi........................................

 

 

Ultimately, there is nothing wrong in football being different in different places, and we should never lose our identity. Modern football is moving ever more closer to a non-contact sport, and when that finally happens, it will lead to us all wishing we could go back to the crunching tackles that are currently much maligned.

 

An interesting post overall with some key questions raised in the quoted bits.

 

The CL and PL have been twin forces which have raised, and equalised standards throughout Europe. Athleticism, organisation, tactics and analysis have improved i the previously less developed footballing countries proportionately faster than the more developed footballing countries were able to improve again.

 

Blanket TV coverage means there are no surprises anymore, I think that the differences between football at the highest levels in different countries is now smaller than it has ever been. The only key difference being that the countries that play proportionately more games in the heat (South America/ Southern Europe) play at a slower tempo than the colder countries where you have to run around just to keep warm!

 

The game evolves, and I don’t think that there will ever be a time when there is a mass appetite for the maiming tackles, heavy pitches and ponderous play that dominated much of the English game in the 70’s. Most people, myself included, want robust tackling within the laws of the game. However the game has largely moved on from defenders either committing themselves, and missing, therefore being taken out of the game, and giving away free kicks with balls which are far more versatile than they were forty years ago more likely to go in from distance than they were ever before.

 

Silverlining suggested earlier that copying Barca was impossible. I disagree, Holland(Ajax in particular) produced a similar brand of football in the 70’s with a small population and modest resources which dominated for a while at both national and international level. What we don’t know at the moment is in what shape Kenny wants to shape LFC for the next decade. We have some great young lads, especially defenders coming through, it’s up to us.

 

A final thought, i wonder why the like of Spearing/Shelvey aren’t loaned out to La Liga/ Serie A clubs to get continental experience in advance of playing in key Euro games for us in the future ( hopefully)?

[silverlining]

 

I do find this post good, but I find it odd coming from you Silverlining, as you say you appreciate a good defensive player, but then you fail to appreciate any of Lucas Leiva as a player. OK he's not in the class of Hamann or Mascherano - but then again not many defensive midfielders in the Premiership are at present.

 

 

It's not really a topic about style of player, or indeed any individual. More than anything, I just like good players. I don't think Lucas is one. I didn't think Crouch was one.

 

But I don't have a type, like many others who post here. If you look at a list of my favourite LFC players of the last 20 years, they come in all shapes and sizes, and I don't always go for the fashionable - or wilfully unfashionable - choice: Kuyt, Hamann, Gerrard, Hyypia, Garcia, Hansen, Carragher, Johnson, Torres, Owen, McMahon, Babbel, Alonso, Barnes, Beardo et al.

 

A real mixture. Most of those are recognised as top, top quality. Genius in some cases. Others were less acclaimed, or caused more argument. Most were different types of player and personality. All of them are winners. And that's the point.

 

Every great team needs a blend of talents and skillsets; you can't have a tippy-tappy superstar bellend in every position, marvelling at his close ball skills then wondering why the cunt never seems to make a defensive clearance, crunching tackle or head one off the line.

 

I suppose there is an element of superfan divviness/ Champ Manager syndrome. The clowns who say that wingers are an anachronism, midfielders need to "rotate possession/ show game intelligence", defenders need to score goals, tackling is what "bad" players have to resort to, goalscorers have to do more than score goals, there are no good British players, nobody plays with a DM anymore blah blah blah

 

It's all total fucking bullshit and it drives me fucking insane.

 

At the moment we aren't failing to do as well as expected simply because of tactics, formations or luck. Although perhaps they do play their part. The biggest problem is that we just don't have enough good players in the team. Or those that we do have are injured, or not playing brilliantly.

 

But reading some posters on here, it would seem that unless we have the same style of football and ethos as Barcelona, we will fail. Well, I'm sorry, but Mourinho's Chelsea of the mid 2000's, Arsenal's Invincibles and the Petit/ Vieira team, United's class of 99 and various other years, and Kenny's Liverpool teams (managed and played in) would all have given them a fucking game. Without playing them at their own game.

 

Fucking Barcelona. Fuck off. Fucking Spain, you can fuck off too. We'll see how long they stay at the top. Clue: not long.

 

Because contrary to popular opinion, they haven't somehow changed football forever, despite what some twats want us to believe.

[Il Fenomeno]

 

At the moment we aren't failing to do as well as expected simply because of tactics, formations or luck. Although perhaps they do play their part. The biggest problem is that we just don't have enough good players in the team. Or those that we do have are injured, or not playing brilliantly.

 

I agree with most of the things you've posted in the thread, but I have to disagree with this. Our tactics and formations are one of the big reasons why we haven't been picking up points where we should've been doing. Individually, there isn't that much between Maxi and Downing, Carroll and Kuyt or Adam and Spearing but we were performing much better with Maxi, Spearing and Kuyt in the team. It was down to the formation and style of play suiting them down to the ground. Our team was nice and balanced in every area, and the players we had in attack complimented each other well, we have sacrificed that attacking balance to fit Carroll and Downing into the team.

[dirk grout]

It's not really a topic about style of player, or indeed any individual. More than anything, I just like good players. I don't think Lucas is one. I didn't think Crouch was one.

 

But I don't have a type, like many others who post here. If you look at a list of my favourite LFC players of the last 20 years, they come in all shapes and sizes, and I don't always go for the fashionable - or wilfully unfashionable - choice: Kuyt, Hamann, Gerrard, Hyypia, Garcia, Hansen, Carragher, Johnson, Torres, Owen, McMahon, Babbel, Alonso, Barnes, Beardo et al.

 

A real mixture. Most of those are recognised as top, top quality. Genius in some cases. Others were less acclaimed, or caused more argument. Most were different types of player and personality. All of them are winners. And that's the point.

 

Every great team needs a blend of talents and skillsets; you can't have a tippy-tappy superstar bellend in every position, marvelling at his close ball skills then wondering why the cunt never seems to make a defensive clearance, crunching tackle or head one off the line.

 

I suppose there is an element of superfan divviness/ Champ Manager syndrome. The clowns who say that wingers are an anachronism, midfielders need to "rotate possession/ show game intelligence", defenders need to score goals, tackling is what "bad" players have to resort to, goalscorers have to do more than score goals, there are no good British players, nobody plays with a DM anymore blah blah blah

 

It's all total fucking bullshit and it drives me fucking insane.

 

At the moment we aren't failing to do as well as expected simply because of tactics, formations or luck. Although perhaps they do play their part. The biggest problem is that we just don't have enough good players in the team. Or those that we do have are injured, or not playing brilliantly.

 

But reading some posters on here, it would seem that unless we have the same style of football and ethos as Barcelona, we will fail. Well, I'm sorry, but Mourinho's Chelsea of the mid 2000's, Arsenal's Invincibles and the Petit/ Vieira team, United's class of 99 and various other years, and Kenny's Liverpool teams (managed and played in) would all have given them a fucking game. Without playing them at their own game.

 

Fucking Barcelona. Fuck off. Fucking Spain, you can fuck off too. We'll see how long they stay at the top. Clue: not long.

 

Because contrary to popular opinion, they haven't somehow changed football forever, despite what some twats want us to believe.

 

Not many teams throughout history have won back to back world cups and european championships. In fact, in relative terms, they have already been at the top for a long time.

[Biscao]

Not many teams throughout history have won back to back world cups and european championships. In fact, in relative terms, they have already been at the top for a long time.

 

Back in the days of the beginning of the millennium France was supposed to be the invincible ones for decades winning back to back WC/EC with an incredible crop of talent coming through the best youth system in the world.

 

Despite a last breath from their golden generation in 2006 it all went to shit, culminating with this.

 

These things go in cycles and I think Spain will find out soon enough that despite their incredible crop of talent players like Xavi, Villa, Iniesta, Torres (I could, but won't go on) won't be as easy to replace in practice as it is in theory.

 

And you should never underestimate the power success has for attracting incompetents looking for some personal glory.

[Mbrownrigg]

Back in the days of the beginning of the millennium France was supposed to be the invincible ones for decades winning back to back WC/EC with an incredible crop of talent coming through the best youth system in the world.

 

Despite a last breath from their golden generation in 2006 it all went to shit, culminating with this.

 

These things go in cycles and I think Spain will find out soon enough that despite their incredible crop of talent players like Xavi, Villa, Iniesta, Torres (I could, but won't go on) won't be as easy to replace in practice as it is in theory.

 

And you should never underestimate the power success has for attracting incompetents looking for some personal glory.

 

Fair point about France, but looking at some of the players Spain have coming through, not sure I agree.

 

Slightly moving off topic there, but have to say great post

[Trucker Paddy]

My favourite non LFC player of all time is Fernando Hierro, fuckin sickened me that he went to Bolton for a final payday, it was like watching Ali get battered by Spinks when he shoulda retired before then.

[Trumo]

Interesting points about those national sides that have won the European Championship and World Cup back-to-back. In the case of West Germany, their 1972 squad was more expressive and entertaining, but the 1974 squad was more solid and unspectacular, and they struggled a bit at times to break teams down. Spain won with a lot of flair in 2008, but in 2010 they struggled to break sides down at times, yet were more solid defensively. France on the other hand, won the World Cup before the European Championship. In 1998 they were defensively solid and had a creative midfield to get them over the line, because their strikers were generally misfiring. In 2000 they were more expansive and free-flowing, but more susceptible defensively. All three teams were less expressive when winning the World Cup than when winning the European Championship.

 

Every team to have won the World Cup since the 60s has had a very solid defensive base, so this is where future World Cup winners have to start. When their attacking players also hit peak form, chances are the team will go very far, perhaps even winning the World Cup. Lack of defensive solidity is one of the biggest reasons why Argentina have failed to win the World Cup in the last 20-odd years. That and putting too much pressure on one player to deliver the creative spark in successive tournaments (Maradona in 1990 and 1994, Ortega in 1998, Veron in 2002, Riquelme in 2006 and Messi in 2010).

[zigackly]

Defending is far from being just about tackling, and I think the Sid Lowe article has lost something in translation there. For me the best defenders will minimise their tackling through anticipation, positioning, jockeying someone off the ball, or showing the attacker a different space to move into than the one they would prefer. I don't think Xabi is saying you should never tackle, but that it should never be the first weapon in a defender's armoury. Personally, I agree.