Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

You’ve cherrypicked one thing out of the rest. Good stuff. Are you trolling? Do want to respond to the entire post or are you just going to be dishonest? 

I should have put "End of Part One" at the end of that.

My bad.

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Corbyn should carry the can for the failings of LOTO office, but other people were in charge of the complaints-handling bodies and the NEC. It's only fair to blame Corbyn for the stuff that was within his purview and nothing more.

For me, the worst thing in that report when it comes to political interference was LOTO interfering in complaints against the LOTO in a decision not to follow the complaint. I mean, that’s pretty fuckin’ bad. Could you imagine your own reaction to ‘Starmer and his office decide not to peruse complain against Starmer’. Imagine Twitter?! They’d be calling for his head immediately, and I think it would be a reasonable shout. Where’s the same for Corbyn? Not a fucking peep about it. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I should have put "End of Part One" at the end of that.

My bad.

In which case, sorry for jumping in too quickly. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

15 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Link please.

 

 

No individuals are named as being responsible by the watchdog.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism

Screen grab from the report itself:

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It does a decent job of depicting the moral ambiguity of the targeted assassinations. It's a good film, but I think it would have been a better film if it included the occasion when the Israelis mistakenly killed a perfectly innocent Moroccan guy in Norway.

Does anyone other than the people who ordered the murders in Tunis and Paris in the early 90s claim that the victims had anything to do with the Munich murders? Or have Israel ever provided credible evidence?

[cloggypop]

10 minutes ago, Numero said:

Screen grab from the report itself:

 

So the political interference was pushing for the suspension of Ken Livingstone. Starmer seems to be interfering himself today and that's after this report has come out.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

So the political interference was pushing for the suspension of Ken Livingstone. Starmer seems to be interfering himself today and that's after this report has come out.

Which investigation did Starmer interfere with? Would you have been okay with Starmer interfering to suspend Corbyn? I wouldn’t. As long as we don’t try to have it both ways, I’m okay. 
 

There’s a difference between being a member of the party and being in the PLP. Like I said earlier, I’m not sure about the decision. I can see why he made it, and without looking at every rule ever, it seems like it’s well within his right as leader of the PLP to remove the whip. It’s kicking people from the Labour Party that’s different. 

[sir roger]

22 minutes ago, Numero said:

For me, the worst thing in that report when it comes to political interference was LOTO interfering in complaints against the LOTO in a decision not to follow the complaint. I mean, that’s pretty fuckin’ bad. Could you imagine your own reaction to ‘Starmer and his office decide not to peruse complain against Starmer’. Imagine Twitter?! They’d be calling for his head immediately, and I think it would be a reasonable shout. Where’s the same for Corbyn? Not a fucking peep about it. 

Various nobheads ( usually after advertising their actions on Swawky and similar ) are regulary emailing the party  tryng to get Starmer investigated for various imagined rule infracti ons, but are never heard of again presumably because they are cobblers and quickly seen as not worth pursuing. The 'mural' bollocks which is alluded to in the EHRC report was presumably seen as such , as it is by most sensible people and was binned. It can be argued to be political interference , but it is a bit stretching to call it a major infraction.

[Numero Veinticinco]

6 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Various nobheads ( usually after advertising their actions on Swawky and similar ) are regulary emailing the party  tryng to get Starmer investigated for various imagined rule infracti ons, but are never heard of again presumably because they are cobblers and quickly seen as not worth pursuing. The 'mural' bollocks which is alluded to in the EHRC report was presumably seen as such , as it is by most sensible people and was binned. It can be argued to be political interference , but it is a bit stretching to call it a major infraction.

Well, leaving aside whether or not the mural thing is actual bollocks or not, If an independent, or even secondary group in the party look at it and decide its bollocks, then so be it. Having the accused judge whether it’s frivolous or not is just rock bottom, piss-poor lack of standards. 
 

If Starmer is judging these complaints against him, then going ‘nah, I’m a top lad... bin it’, then he should be sacked immediately and thrown out of the party, in my view. Obviously he has a little bit of training in conflicts of interest and ethical practices, having had a career before politics that is built upon avoiding conflicts of interest and ethical practices, the reaching the pinnacle of that career. I’d imagine he has the sense to avoid that. If not, I’ve completely misjudged him. 

[sir roger]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

Well, leaving aside whether or not the mural thing is actual bollocks or not, If an independent, or even secondary group look at it and decide its bollocks, then so be it. Having the accused judge whether it’s frivolous or not is just rock bottom, piss-poor lack of standards. 

My point is , are all of these frivolous complaints about Starmer logged, investigate thoroughly and is he questioned about them ? I would seriously doubt it .

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, sir roger said:

My point is , are all of these frivolous complaints about Starmer logged, investigate thoroughly and is he questioned about them ? I would seriously doubt it .

No idea. Like I say, he’s reached the top of a profession where ethical and professional integrity is of upmost importance. I’d be surprised if they’re being handwaved away. If they are, he needs seeing to. Just my view. 
 

The complaint against Corbyn was well within the bounds of something that should have been looked at by somebody outside of his office and then judged upon. It’s why he showed such ‘sincere regret’ over his comments. For his office to be like ‘nah, don’t bother’ about it is way beyond okay, to me at least. I honestly wouldn’t accept that in a branch of McDonalds, let alone the Labour Party. 

[sir roger]

Ha ha, is Keir your screensaver.

[Strontium]

44 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Does anyone other than the people who ordered the murders in Tunis and Paris in the early 90s claim that the victims had anything to do with the Munich murders? Or have Israel ever provided credible evidence?

 

No idea, sorry. I presume their intelligence agencies know more than I do.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Ha ha, is Keir your screensaver.

No, but I literally just said that if he is doing the same thing, he should be fucked off. I mean, that’s consistency and a set standard. Am I really having to argue that those accused shouldn’t be the ones to decide on their own cases, anyone, Starmer or Corbyn. How is that... 

 

Huff. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

No idea, sorry. I presume their intelligence agencies know more than I do.

I'd also presume that the PLO know more than either of us, too. The Israelis say the people they murdered were implicated in the Munich murders; the PLO say they weren't. The response to both could be "well, they would say that, wouldn't they".   I just find it slightly odd that people automatically take the Israelis' word and not the PLO's.  (I also get a bit queasy about how comfortable everybody is with extrajudicial killings.)

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, Numero said:

Yeah, I think it’s bullshit too. I think it was more likely that he was reinstated because he didn’t break the rules. I say that without actually knowing the details of the rules. It does seem far more sensible than ‘he was bang guilty but there was a conspiracy to reinstate him’. 
 

Honestly, I’ve not really made my mind up on Starmer withdrawing the whip. I think he has shown excellent leadership since the report came out. He reacted fairly, strongly, and with purpose to the report. The report findings were pretty grim, and those not acknowledging or criticising Labour under Corbyn for their and his failings are skewed. However, I’m undecided on this. Part of me thinks that the findings of the report show something serious enough to say Corbyn and his office fucked up badly enough, coupled with his appalling response to that report- especially saying he wasn’t part of the problem and not accepting findings from the report - to have him booted on general principle (though, I fully accept general principle and Labour rules aren’t the same thing). Then another part of me says... well, it did just go through a fuckin’ investigation that reinstated him.
 

It’s clear he wants him out of the way. I can’t argue with that, because he is an incredibly divisive figure, not because of who he is but because he has become some sort of symbol to some. I guess (again) that he has made the decision that temporary tooth pulling pain is better than long term toothache. How well that works out remains to be seen. It’s ballsy as fuck, I’ll give him that. Not sure if it’s fair or smart or anything else. 

I don't think its "ballsy" at all. Its cowardly and shows the leader of the labour party afraid of certain elements in and out of the party.

[Gnasher]

This uniting the party drivel is going well, 

 

 

[Gnasher]

Shes right it's now turned into a fucking shambles,

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/18/labour-party-divided-corbyn-antisemitism

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

 

[Bruce Spanner]

Lefties laughing, and celebrating as some sort of Pyrrhic victory, at the Labour Party’s perceived failings in the age of the most duplicitous, mendacious and utterly contemptible Iteration of the Tories, possibly, ever?

 

I believe were through the looking glass now, Alice.

 

Twitter and  a lack of ability to think critically are going to be the final nail in the coffin of ‘the left’. 
 

Pathetic all round, well done.

[Gnasher]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Lefties laughing, and celebrating as some sort of Pyrrhic victory, at the Labour Party’s perceived failings in the age of the most duplicitous, mendacious and utterly contemptible Iteration of the Tories, possibly, ever?

 

I believe were through the looking glass now, Alice.

 

Twitter and  a lack of ability to think critically are going to be the final nail in the coffin of ‘the left’. 
 

Pathetic all round, well done.

"Lefties laughing?  

 

Where? The mood I've seen is worry and concern. The bottom third in this country are being left behind, the extra 20 pound universal top up is being scrapped, talk of cuts to the minimum wage etc and the Labour party doesn't appear to making a lot of noise for the fight. What are parents with small children worried about rental evictions supposed to do? You believe someone like Margret fucking Hodge gives a fuck about some girl working in a care home on a zero hour contract? What are these people facing major social problems supposed to do? Phone up Marcus Rashford? 

[Bruce Spanner]

7 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

"Lefties laughing?  

 

Where? The mood I've seen is worry and concern. The bottom third in this country are being left behind, the extra 20 pound universal top up is being scrapped, talk of cuts to the minimum wage etc and the Labour party doesn't appear to making a lot of noise for the fight. What are parents with small children worried about rental evictions supposed to do? You believe someone like Margret fucking Hodge gives a fuck about some girl working in a care home on a zero hour contract? What are these people facing major social problems supposed to do? Phone up Marcus Rashford? 

Do we have to do this again?

 

It’s in the thing you just fucking posted! 

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Do we have to do this again?

 

It’s in the thing you just fucking posted! 

Maybe your definition of lefties is different to mine.

[Bruce Spanner]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Maybe your definition of lefties is different to mine.

[Gnasher]

Scaling back through the truth bombs thrown by established and respected members of the British mainstream media at Jeremy Corbyn my personal fav is the one where Simon Heffer informs potential labour voters that Corbyn would if elected re open Auschwitz,