Roberto Firmino

[lebron]

4 hours ago, Funkasy said:

Wtf? He has been stinking the place out for for the best part of two and a half season, your severely deluted. 

He really hasn't. Diluted or deluded?

4 hours ago, LFC 6 Times said:

Yeah the conversation around Bobby is mad, he was brilliant at the weekend but absolutely horrific at Fulham and United. Don’t understand he sanctimony around him. He’s unbelievably inconsistent these days unfortunately and has been for the best part of 3 years.

He was ok vs Fulham, probably in our top3 players vs Utd (although not saying much), Motm vs Bornemouth and was very good again tonight.

1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The truth is that he wasnt very good tonight until he scored and was lucky not to be subbed. Played well after he scored though.

He was good 1st half, very good 2nd half.

1 hour ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

He wasn’t very good, but he was our best player by a country mile in the first half. As the game went on Elliott got better and better and gets man of the match from me.

Agree with Elliott Motm, Bobby being our 2nd best player on the night.

1 hour ago, J-V said:

 

There was far worse than him on the pitch he was never in danger of being subbed.  Saying that I thought he was alright given he was doing Henderson and Fabinho's job for them as well.

This is a huge concern for me. I think Hendo's hamstring problem might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for us. Never have I seen a midfield player in a top team having such problems turning with the ball and making a forward pass. Fabinho did it one time (I think) during the entire game, and guess what, we scored a goal from it!

 

Dave and the others in the podcast wants Firmino playing higher up the pitch. There's really not much point in that if the space you are creating by doing that just makes it even harder for our glacial-like midfield to transport the ball forward. It just makes the defenders job even easier. Better to drag them around by dropping deeper. Problem is, Milner and Henderson (and Fabinho this season) have hardly been able to pick out anything, let alone Bobby in space. Klopp even touched on it after the Utd defeat that they weren't able to spot him.

 

Btw; I'm very happy to see Harvey picking up the position between the lines of their midfield and defence more often now. He'll compliment Bobby nicely doing that. As for Henderson (and Milner), game time should be severely limited from now on.

1 hour ago, Carvalho Diablo said:

Wonderful finish tonight.

Yep, nice side footed finish. As long as he doesn't have to hit them from long range, he's still able to find the net.

[VladimirIlyich]

6 hours ago, J-V said:

 

There was far worse than him on the pitch he was never in danger of being subbed.  Saying that I thought he was alright given he was doing Henderson and Fabinho's job for them as well.

Henderson played well for me just doing the simple things well,but tired badly. It's evident to see his legs are going and/or he's carrying knocks. Fabinho was poor in the first half but came alive in the second. Elliott was always lively but it wasnt until the second half that much came of his touches. Its a shame he lacks that turn of pace to get past players though. Reminds me of a young Shaq at times.

[Lee909]

Still the same problem when he plays that without both Salah and Mane running off him we don't have enough players in the box to score goals. I'd like to see him and Nunez at some point 

[Barrington Womble]

12 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The truth is that he wasnt very good tonight until he scored and was lucky not to be subbed. Played well after he scored though.

His lack of pace is the big issue for me. His passing was ropey early tonight, but he was at least trying to make things happen which most others weren't, we were way too safe in possession - and if we were better with pressing and 2nd balls, even his passing when poor can be an asset. But when he drops deep he has neither the acceleration when he turns his man any more, or if he plays it on, to get up the pitch quickly enough. He can still be involved and is probably the best 5th choice in the country (in fact world football). But he's clearly a shadow of the player of 3 years ago. 

[Pungkoq Hang]

A mini renaissance of sorts, kudos to him. Still dropping too deep in midfield for my liking though last night. 

[lebron]

5 hours ago, Pungkoq Hang said:

A mini renaissance of sorts, kudos to him. Still dropping too deep in midfield for my liking though last night. 

Which he wouldn't have to do if we had a midfielder capable of (and having the balls/confidence) turning with the ball and bringing it through the lines. Harvey might be the solution to this until Thiago is back. Possibly Melo too. It won't be Henderson and Milner though, that's for sure.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, lebron said:

Which he wouldn't have to do if we had a midfielder capable of (and having the balls/confidence) turning with the ball and bringing it through the lines. Harvey might be the solution to this until Thiago is back. Possibly Melo too. It won't be Henderson and Milner though, that's for sure.

He's always done it. But he used to have a little more speed and agility, so was still able to join in the attack. 

[lebron]

5 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

His lack of pace is the big issue for me. His passing was ropey early tonight, but he was at least trying to make things happen which most others weren't, we were way too safe in possession - and if we were better with pressing and 2nd balls, even his passing when poor can be an asset. But when he drops deep he has neither the acceleration when he turns his man any more, or if he plays it on, to get up the pitch quickly enough. He can still be involved and is probably the best 5th choice in the country (in fact world football). But he's clearly a shadow of the player of 3 years ago. 

Another myth... He doesn't have Mane/Salah-like acceleration, but he's by no means slow. It's just that he hasn't ever really played on the shoulder of the defence. It's not his role. Agree with the poster above that we need runners more often in behind him, that should have been our cowardly captain's job, but he has neither the legs, balls or the skillset required (anymore). Now there's someone who is a shadow of himself...

[joe_fishfish]

His through ball in the first half, the one Diaz ran onto and rounded the keeper from, was excellent.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, lebron said:

Another myth... He doesn't have Mane/Salah-like acceleration, but he's by no means slow. It's just that he hasn't ever really played on the shoulder of the defence. It's not his role. Agree with the poster above that we need runners more often in behind him, that should have been our cowardly captain's job, but he has neither the legs, balls or the skillset required (anymore). Now there's someone who is a shadow of himself...

He's very slow now. He didn't used to be. He used to be able to run away from people in midfield in the past. And turn away. He does neither now. About the only thing I agree with is he never used to be really fast. But he was fast enough. He's not now. 

[lebron]

2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

He's always done it. But he used to have a little more speed and agility, so was still able to join in the attack. 

Nah, not the seasons (17-19) where our pressing was effective enough for him to retrieve the ball much more often in the opposition third. 

 

A bigger problem than his perceived lack of speed/agility is the fact refs are allowing defenders to just run through the attackers this season (something Mo and Kane among others have experienced too). Pretty hard to keep the ball under control when defenders are pushing/shoving without consequences.

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, lebron said:

Nah, not the seasons (17-19) where our pressing was effective enough for him to retrieve the ball much more often in the opposition third. 

 

A bigger problem than his perceived lack of speed/agility is the fact refs are allowing defenders to just run through the attackers this season (something Mo and Kane among others have experienced too). Pretty hard to keep the ball under control when defenders are pushing/shoving without consequences.

So what was the reason he couldn't do it last year? Or the year before? 

[lebron]

The answer (lengthy one) is somewhere in this thread...

 

Short version. When all our faster CBs went down we started playing 20-30 yards deeper, removing Bobby and the other attackers from their most dangerous zones.

Last season he never really got going. Covid and injuries (and the improved play of Mane) meant limited playing time and he never really got into any rhythm. He'll have to take some blame for not being fit when it mattered, but when he was given a run, he had his highest goal involvement numbers since the 17-18 season.

 

Edit: If you meant keeping the ball under control with your back to goal, I wouldn't say that's his biggest strength. He's much better at quick give-and-goes with midfielders creating opposite movements with him. His work with Coutinho was mesmeric, and he would have absolutely loved playing with Gerrard for example, whereas our current incumbent at the 8 doesn't have the pace, drive or technique to do so. 

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, lebron said:

The answer (lengthy one) is somewhere in this thread...

 

Short version. When all our faster CBs went down we started playing 20-30 yards deeper, removing Bobby and the other attackers from their most dangerous zones.

Last season he never really got going. Covid and injuries (and the improved play of Mane) meant limited playing time and he never really got into any rhythm. He'll have to take some blame for not being fit when it mattered, but when he was given a run, he had his highest goal involvement numbers since the 17-18 season.

I disagree with kinds of that, including the idea we were defending 20-30 yards deeper. It's a football pitch. We defend from the halfway line now. Do you really think we were 20 yards off that? Even Everton don't do that. It feels you are looking for reasons for why he's still great. He just isn't. He's still a good player and a great 5th forward (as I mentioned earlier either in this thread or another, probably the best 5th forward in world football). His pace and agility noticeably dropped off after the injury he had prior to the 19 European cup final. He's never quite been the same again. That doesn't mean he carries no value, he's just not the player he was. And that in my opinion is down to his touch, passing, agility and speed, which to varying are just a little bit lower than they were before. But we play at elite level, so a drop off in one or two of those things isn't noticeable, but put them together and he's just not as good a player as he was. His touch and his passing might come back to him when he gets used to his body not delivering what it used to. But right now he's a shadow of the footballer he was, as welcome as his 3 goals this week have been. 

[lebron]

1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

I disagree with kinds of that, including the idea we were defending 20-30 yards deeper. It's a football pitch. We defend from the halfway line now. Do you really think we were 20 yards off that? Even Everton don't do that. It feels you are looking for reasons for why he's still great. He just isn't. He's still a good player and a great 5th forward (as I mentioned earlier either in this thread or another, probably the best 5th forward in world football). His pace and agility noticeably dropped off after the injury he had prior to the 19 European cup final. He's never quite been the same again. That doesn't mean he carries no value, he's just not the player he was. And that in my opinion is down to his touch, passing, agility and speed, which to varying are just a little bit lower than they were before. But we play at elite level, so a drop off in one or two of those things isn't noticeable, but put them together and he's just not as good a player as he was. His touch and his passing might come back to him when he gets used to his body not delivering what it used to. But right now he's a shadow of the footballer he was, as welcome as his 3 goals this week have been. 

Yeah, we're never going to agree on this...

 

While everyone were (rightly) giving Nat and R. Williams kudos for their defensive displays that led us to regaining CL entry, they seem to forget that we were stringing together results based on playing much, much deeper than we normally do. It took a seismic shift in our approch, much less dominance on the ball and a lot deeper defence (+ Fabinho back in top form in midfield to do so). Look at how hopeless Phillips has looked the couple of times he has tried to play a high line (Madrid CL away, Palace at home), and you understand just how deep we were playing for him to have any sort of positive impact.

 

The second bolded point: He's in his 30's, of course there'll be some sort of a decline of his physical prowess. It's not even close to what you think it is, though. I just think you have made your mind up though, and don't want to backtrack on it... I bet you he had one of the top 4 recorded top speeds yesterday for example, and not sure how you can claim agility issues after his volley on Saturday!

 

I'm relatively happy to rest my case here, as I think we'll see more from Bobby than you and many others seem to believe we will this season. Hoping you will be happy if he proves me right, too?

[Barrington Womble]

2 hours ago, lebron said:

Yeah, we're never going to agree on this...

 

While everyone were (rightly) giving Nat and R. Williams kudos for their defensive displays that led us to regaining CL entry, they seem to forget that we were stringing together results based on playing much, much deeper than we normally do. It took a seismic shift in our approch, much less dominance on the ball and a lot deeper defence (+ Fabinho back in top form in midfield to do so). Look at how hopeless Phillips has looked the couple of times he has tried to play a high line (Madrid CL away, Palace at home), and you understand just how deep we were playing for him to have any sort of positive impact.

 

The second bolded point: He's in his 30's, of course there'll be some sort of a decline of his physical prowess. It's not even close to what you think it is, though. I just think you have made your mind up though, and don't want to backtrack on it... I bet you he had one of the top 4 recorded top speeds yesterday for example, and not sure how you can claim agility issues after his volley on Saturday!

 

I'm relatively happy to rest my case here, as I think we'll see more from Bobby than you and many others seem to believe we will this season. Hoping you will be happy if he proves me right, too?

I'll be made up if Bobby can regain the form of previous years. I don't think it'll happen as it's pretty unusual for any player to arrest the sort of decline he's had. 

 

I don't argue we defended deeper in 20/21 after the injuries. It's not 20-30 yards deeper, and not even half that. We weren't even as deep as the edge of the centre circle. We dropped off about 5 yards and Ali at the other end pushed up a few yards too to try and close the gap in between. 

 

I don't know what you mean he had one of the "top 4 record speeds" yesterday. You mean he was in our top 4 fastest players? He wouldn't have been that. Because the 2 wide players, the 2 full backs and the 2 centre backs were/are all faster. So he may be faster than Elliot. He may be Henderson. He probably isn't faster than fab. He probably isn't even faster than Ali, although he didn't have to do much sprinting last night. There's a reasonable chance he was in the top 4 forwards in our team. 

[El Rojo]

 

[VladimirIlyich]

21 hours ago, lebron said:

Which he wouldn't have to do if we had a midfielder capable of (and having the balls/confidence) turning with the ball and bringing it through the lines. Harvey might be the solution to this until Thiago is back. Possibly Melo too. It won't be Henderson and Milner though, that's for sure.

It's never been Henderson and Milner so I'm not sure why either have been shoehorned into the debate. With a fully fit midfield Hendo and Milner rotate their role and Fabinho is the deep lying CM. Unfortunately Thiago,Keita nor OC can be relied on for that third spot so Elliott and Carvalho are being baptised by fire. They are doing a good job though,under the circumstances.

[Jairzinho]

With everyone fully fit I don't think Firmino, Henderson, or Milner are going to be starting all that often for us. 

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

Elliott was already first choice last season. Our fully fit midfield does not have Henderson or Milner.

[VladimirIlyich]

1 minute ago, Jairzinho said:

With everyone fully fit I don't think Firmino, Henderson, or Milner are going to be starting all that often for us. 

 

 

They would all feature heavily though,even as subs. Especially Firmino

[lebron]

On 01/09/2022 at 21:02, Barrington Womble said:

I'll be made up if Bobby can regain the form of previous years. I don't think it'll happen as it's pretty unusual for any player to arrest the sort of decline he's had. 

 

I don't argue we defended deeper in 20/21 after the injuries. It's not 20-30 yards deeper, and not even half that. We weren't even as deep as the edge of the centre circle. We dropped off about 5 yards and Ali at the other end pushed up a few yards too to try and close the gap in between. 

 

I don't know what you mean he had one of the "top 4 record speeds" yesterday. You mean he was in our top 4 fastest players? He wouldn't have been that. Because the 2 wide players, the 2 full backs and the 2 centre backs were/are all faster. So he may be faster than Elliot. He may be Henderson. He probably isn't faster than fab. He probably isn't even faster than Ali, although he didn't have to do much sprinting last night. There's a reasonable chance he was in the top 4 forwards in our team. 

Ha-ha, negged for the sheer cheek

[El Rojo]

Six goals, three assists. 

 

Only Haaland is averaging fewer minutes per goal or assist (42 minutes for him, 52 minutes for Bobby) in the top flight. 

 

Most other things have been negative, but Bobby's been sensational this season.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Weird thing is his general play about the pitch has been shite but you gotta credit his effectiveness in front of goal at the minute. 

[stringvest]

1 minute ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Weird thing is his general play about the pitch has been shite but you gotta credit his effectiveness in front of goal at the minute. 

That's the bizarre thing.  I never used to mind his poor run rate wrt goals and assists when he was contributing elsewhere 3 or 4 years ago.  Then his form went off a cliff and he was useless for years.  Now he's still useless in the area in which he used to be strong, with the ball bouncing off him, him giving it away cheaply, and being useless in tackling or intercepting, but he's managing to get on the score sheet.  We're going to have to rely on him for a while, so I hope he can continue finding the net, and let Jota do all the link work - he's far better at it, and far more mobile.