Joe Allen thread

[piscinin]

I haven't seen much of Allen just wary of one of the critiscms aimed at Swansea was that they lacked adventure and were happy to pass sideways and backwards. I think Wenger said something but he likes a moan especially if they lose.

 

You have to look at the stats in the context of the playing style of the team. There is no doubt his passing stats are fluffed because they play safe and for possession and likewise his tackling stats because as a team they press. Swansea were great for possession but pretty weak at penetration.

[piscinin]

1) 3 yard pass forward to a unmarked player, under no pressure = 1 forward pass.

2) 65 yard defence splitting Alonso special, under pressure from two players = 1 forward pass.

 

Stats = players are the same.

Watching = players aren't the same.

 

1)Carra kicking 3 yards to Suarez 65 yards from goal, Suarez goes on an amazing run, beating 7 players and scoring the best goal ever seen = Carra 1 assist.

2) Suarez picks the ball up from Reina, beats 7 players, runs passed the goal keeper and plays in Jonjo for a tap in = Suarez 1 assist.

 

Stats = Carra and Suarez are equally creative

Watching = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

 

Piscinin Stats + Watching = Lucas good aerially.

Moody Watching = Lucas not good aerially.

 

I don't know, it's almost as if the more information you have the better it is.

[jackofdk]

Looking at the stats in context would also mean factoring in the fact that Allen played for a team that was underdogs in almost every game they played while Henderson was surrounded by much, much better players and played in a team that was favourites to win more often than not.

[TheHitman]

So could Henderson do what Allen does under Rodgers instructions by coaching and working with him or is that too much to ask?.

[The Woolster]

They don't tell the whole story, unfortunately. When you look at Spearing's 86% and Gerrard at 83%, and that Gerrard passes the ball backwards more often, you learn to appreciate how shit stats are at giving a good picture of the quality of a player.

 

No, they only tell part of the story, they don't tell you the reason's why, they don't tell you what they can't measure, and there are so many different stats that it is very difficult to interpret them. However they are completely unbiased and they record the many thousands of events that have happend that we have absolutely no chance of remembering, so they can clearly be of use. If the stats are so shit at giving a good picture of quality, why are all the top clubs investing in them and the analysis of them?

 

Keeping to your example of Gerrard and Spearing, and your later post about short passes and long balls. I would have personally thought, and I think pretty much everyone else on here would as well, that Gerrard not only plays more long balls than Spearing but is also much better at them. Last season they actually both played 12.5% of their passes as long balls, Stevie's accuracy of those long balls was pretty good at 73%, but Jay's was great at 79%. Does this tell the whole story? No, as not all long balls are equal, but does the fact that I, and as I said I think many on here would think (although perhaps its just me) Gerrard to be clearly better, suggest that our bias gets in the way? Do we overrate Gerrard and/or underrate Spearing ability at passing? Quite possibly.

[Code]

Almost identical?

 

He attempted a tackle twice as often as Henderson and wins them more often.

 

 

Henderson won 84,31% of the tackles he made, Allen won 74,54% of his.

 

So like I said, the main difference is that Allen made more tackles at a less successful rate than Henderson.

 

During a season I'd say these numbers are almsot identical.

 

Goals: 2 vs 4

Shots on target: 14 vs 13

Shots: 31 vs 27

 

Allen created more last season, but again Henderson created 78 attacks in his last season for Sunderland, a club more on the level with Swansea

 

Attacks created: 31 vs 44

 

Their pass completion is very good, but Allen is involved more because of his more central role probably the reason why he creates more, but its easy to sway this in Hendersons favour, simply by stating Henderson creates an attack every 48 pass while Allen makes 49 passes before he creates an attack or you could say they are almost identical.

[grazywalker]

Stats bore me a bit

[The Woolster]

The point everyone is missing is that Allen is being supported by Rodgers, who Code has decided he doesn't like, so therefore (much like Rafa and Lucas before him) every single argument he has will be to justify that position. Hence defending Henderson over Allen, despite knowing fuck all about one of them. I mean, we are talking about a guy who will claim tackling is overrated and the best players don't need to do it (when criticising Lucas, who tackles a lot) and then use tackle stats to try and claim Henderson is better than Allen.

 

Anyway, Lucas has always been someone who looked to get the ball forward where possible. He does so quickly and concisely. Certainly much, much better than Henderson in that regard. Allen, I don't recall ever noticing before, so no comment.

 

To be fair to Code, he has looked at Allen's stats before and suggested that he could be what we needed (although its on the MF, so you would not have seen it unless your had a membership that ran out). So I don't think Code doesn't like Allen, and I don't want to speak for him, but perhaps he is actually pointing out we have a good player already at the club who could play in Allen's position.

 

At the moment, we do own Henderson, and we don't own Allen, so if we think about it for a second, I don't think he should be criticised for defending Henderson over Allen.

[silverlining]

So could Henderson do what Allen does under Rodgers instructions by coaching and working with him or is that too much to ask?.

 

Rodgers can't teach him to have a spine, or adopt a winning mindset. Horrenderson is a gutless non-entity and no amount of coaching can change that. He will never influence or win a game.

 

So I don't need stats, if we buy Allen and that means less playing time for the ghost with neat hair, I'm all for it.

[The Woolster]

1) 3 yard pass forward to a unmarked player, under no pressure = 1 forward pass.

2) 65 yard defence splitting Alonso special, under pressure from two players = 1 forward pass.

 

Stats = players are the same.

Watching = players aren't the same.

 

1)Carra kicking 3 yards to Suarez 65 yards from goal, Suarez goes on an amazing run, beating 7 players and scoring the best goal ever seen = Carra 1 assist.

2) Suarez picks the ball up from Reina, beats 7 players, runs passed the goal keeper and plays in Jonjo for a tap in = Suarez 1 assist.

 

Stats = Carra and Suarez are equally creative

Watching = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

 

That is a pretty rubbish point Hank. That is not stats actually saying anything, it is just one event. The stats only start to say something when the events happen hundreds of times over the season.

 

1)Carra kicking 3 yards to Suarez 65 yards from goal, Suarez goes on an amazing run, beating 7 players and scoring the best goal ever seen = Carra 1 assist. However it is his only assist of the season

2) Suarez picks the ball up from Reina, beats 7 players, runs passed the goal keeper and plays in Jonjo for a tap in = Suarez 1 assist. This is one assist of many over the season

 

Stats = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

Watching = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

[Gym Beglin]

Passing backwards is not a bad trait for a central midfielder. Too many times we see midfielders trying to force through a pass that just isn't on, simply because they get impatient with the ball and don't think to retain posession.

 

It's not that passing backwards is a trait of Allen or Swansea, it's that retaining posession is/was, and sometimes going backwards is part of that. Sometimes by going backwards you can end up being more attacking, perhaps a full back then sees a gap opening up and runs with the ball for 20 yards, because the middle of the park was packed with people while the central midfielders were on the ball. Passing backwards is not a sin. The sin is Carragher receiving it and twatting it 45 yards towards a corner flag. I tell you, this whole passing system will live or die by it's defenders and how they use the ball, and how high a line they play for 90 minutes.

 

Getting Allen for £10m would be excellent. Technically he's not a massive upgrade on Spearing, or Adam. It's the intelligence that we are paying for, his reading of the game and how to affect the game. Very much like Didi, he can run the game from the centre circle if he wants, just intercepting or making himself available for the pass. There are lots of footballers who can do that, let me point out, and this is why the price should be set around £10m.

Once a central midfielder gets to £15m, then I expect ALL of the above plus another layer of quality, be it athleticism, or goals, or free-kicks.

 

Shelvey could turn out to be a £15m player, he's already showing signs of being a very dominant central midfielder. He just needs tactical guidance now, something he's lacked so far, much like Henderson, who is an inferior player to Shelvey.

If you dilly dally and just float around the midfield, no matter how talented you are, then you're not going to get to the top level. I think of the likes of Jermaine Jenas, Fabian Delph, Aaron Ramsey, Anderson, and lately you look at Jack Rodwell, they play with too much freedom, you can't tell where the defensive midfiedler begins and the attacking midfielder ends. They just end up being nearly-men, where they never master a position and just get-by on being 'decent'. I don't want Shelvey to be that player, he's too good a prospect to just let him float his career away. He loves a challenge, he's good in the air, he's aggressive and confident, and he can pass the ball. He's a defensive midfielder, but he's not been interested in that, he's straight on free-kicks, he's trying to score goals from distance, and his period at Blackpool probably made him think he's going to be a great attacking midfielder. No, he'd be wasted there, he hasn't got the extra to beat a man with trickery or pace, ergo, I'd never pick him as an attacking midfield prospect at a top club. He has to realise this and accept this.

 

He's not even 21 until February. He should be at the Olympics now, he's a great talent. He's got a record of 15 goals in 96 games playing as a midfielder, and loads of them appearances would have been sub appearances. I reckon that's a better return than Scholes and Gerrard at the same age, but I'd have to check, which I won't.

[Code]

To be fair to Code, he has looked at Allen's stats before and suggested that he could be what we needed (although its on the MF, so you would not have seen it unless your had a membership that ran out). So I don't think Code doesn't like Allen, and I don't want to speak for him, but perhaps he is actually pointing out we have a good player already at the club who could play in Allen's position.

 

At the moment, we do own Henderson, and we don't own Allen, so if we think about it for a second, I don't think he should be criticised for defending Henderson over Allen.

 

Woolster I would not bother if I were you, the guy you are talking to made a 3 line long post yesterday where he slated me for slating our players, manager or just about everything then in the last line he had a go because I tried to make a point in our players favour compared to a Swansea player.

 

Funny stuff.

[Whelan]

Henderson won 84,31% of the tackles he made, Allen won 74,54% of his.

 

So like I said, the main difference is that Allen made more tackles at a less successful rate than Henderson.

 

I thought you couldn't care less about how many tackles a player does?

[billypilgrimnz]

Funny stuff.

 

Again, I agree.

[setreal]

That is a pretty rubbish point Hank. That is not stats actually saying anything, it is just one event. The stats only start to say something when the events happen hundreds of times over the season.

 

1)Carra kicking 3 yards to Suarez 65 yards from goal, Suarez goes on an amazing run, beating 7 players and scoring the best goal ever seen = Carra 1 assist. However it is his only assist of the season

2) Suarez picks the ball up from Reina, beats 7 players, runs passed the goal keeper and plays in Jonjo for a tap in = Suarez 1 assist. This is one assist of many over the season

 

Stats = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

Watching = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

 

Also, Carra wouldn't really get an assist in this scenario.

[billypilgrimnz]

I thought you couldn't care less about how many tackles a player does?

 

Only if it is Lucas doing the tackling. The silence on Lucas' stats presented on the previous page is deafening, of course.

[Code]

I thought you couldn't care less about how many tackles a player does?

 

I dont really, but it was the stand out difference between the players so why not mention it sicne people were comparing them and trying to ridicule those who said Henderson was the better player or at least on the same level.

[Code]

Only if it is Lucas doing the tackling. The silence on Lucas' stats presented on the previous page is deafening, of course.

 

Shakes head.

[The Woolster]

Henderson won 84,31% of the tackles he made, Allen won 74,54% of his.

 

So like I said, the main difference is that Allen made more tackles at a less successful rate than Henderson.

 

But a tackle is only recorded if the tackler touches the ball, I think a much better indicator is a challenge, as these occur a lot more frequently. Henderson attempted 290 challenges, winning 48.6% of them, Allen attempted 490 challenges, winning 57.7% of them.

 

During a season I'd say these numbers are almsot identical.

 

Goals: 2 vs 4

Shots on target: 14 vs 13

Shots: 31 vs 27

 

They are similar, but those 2 extra goals could have been worth 4 more points. They could have been worth 0 as well, but I'd rather have them than not.

 

 

Allen created more last season, but again Henderson created 78 attacks in his last season for Sunderland, a club more on the level with Swansea

 

Attacks created: 31 vs 44

 

Their pass completion is very good, but Allen is involved more because of his more central role probably the reason why he creates more, but its easy to sway this in Hendersons favour, simply by stating Henderson creates an attack every 48 pass while Allen makes 49 passes before he creates an attack or you could say they are almost identical.

 

But if one team is more 'direct' than another, then that last stat is kinda to be expected, as it can be less about the player, and more about the system.

[TheHowieLama]

Shakes head.

 

silently

[billypilgrimnz]

Shakes head.

 

I mean, if you are so concerned with defending a player from our club against a player from somewhere else, Lucas would be the logical choice based on those stats, would he not?

 

But by all means, keep shaking.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Surely Allen's tackling stats would be lower if Swanseas whole philosophy is based on keeping the ball plus his passing stats would be much higher based on the same philosophy. Got to be honest I don't like stats you'd need so many stats of so many variables just to see a small percentage of what you can see with your own two eyes.

[piscinin]

Surely Allen's tackling stats would be lower if Swanseas whole philosophy is based on keeping the ball plus his passing stats would be much higher based on the same philosophy. Got to be honest I don't like stats you'd need so many stats of so many variables just to see a small percentage of what you can see with your own two eyes.

 

It's not a case of either/or though is it? They inform each other.

[Code]

But a tackle is only recorded if the tackler touches the ball, I think a much better indicator is a challenge, as these occur a lot more frequently. Henderson attempted 290 challenges, winning 48.6% of them, Allen attempted 490 challenges, winning 57.7% of them.

.

 

One played central the other out wide most of the time, I'd say its only normal for there to be difference.

 

They are similar, but those 2 extra goals could have been worth 4 more points. They could have been worth 0 as well, but I'd rather have them than not..

 

Allens 4 goals earned Swansea two points, Hendersons did not directly earn us any points but we won both games he scored in.

 

 

But if one team is more 'direct' than another, then that last stat is kinda to be expected, as it can be less about the player, and more about the system.

 

Obviously, but we almost had as much posession as Swansea last season, by the way some people are going you would think we played like Stoke and not the pass and move football we actually played.

[Code]

I mean, if you are so concerned with defending a player from our club against a player from somewhere else, Lucas would be the logical choice based on those stats, would he not?

 

 

Am I though?

 

I'm just pointing out that the difference in quality between henderson and Allen is minimal and its certainly not clear cut who is the better player of the two.

 

You could say Allen had a better season last year but as pointed out it was his first season in the PL and when you are going to look at a players quality you look a bit further than that.

 

And please explain to me what Lucas has got to do with this?

 

I could play along though using the same narrow perspective as used earlier in this thread by others and say Lucas was fuckin dogshite, he did not even touch the ball between late November and May so he was infact totally useless.