Lucas and Mascherano make for an average midfield

[JMARKH]

What do the two of them offer as a pair better than most average stoppers in the premiership? I am not being funny, it is just a genuine question because I am struggling for an answer, what do they give us as a pair?

[Kenyanspeed]

Well I know Mascherano is a feared player,so he gives us a little intimidation?

[Bech]

People should stop looking to our midfield as Mascherano and a partner. Mascherano will play the holding role,while the other midfield player will be closer to gerrard upront, if it Lucas or Aquilani.

 

Mascherano

 

Lucas/Aquilani

Gerrard

Torres

Edited August 17, 2009 by Bech
typo

[JohanH]

People should stop looking to our midfield as Mascherano and a partner. Mascherano will play the holding role,while the other midfield player will be closer to gerrard upront, if it Lucas or Aquilani.

 

Mascherano

 

Lucas/Aquilani

Gerrard

Torres

 

Would help if Lucas got a little further forward and passed forward once in a while. You are right on one thing, though, Mascherano is not the problem.

[Red Mist]

Move Gerrard into centre alongside Masch and have Yossi playing behind Torres and we'd look a lot better. That's got to be the way to go in the next game home to Stoke. The same team that we fielded against Spurs will not beat Stoke, who we know are just going to put all 11 players behind the ball and play for a draw as they did last season.

[silverlining]

It's a truly awful combination.

 

Palacios and Huddlestone monstered us in midfield. Masher is a very good DM, but he does most of his best work when we don't have the ball; tackling, harrying, chasing down possession. But he struggled to do even that. And his game when we have possession is ordinary, at best.

 

Lucas had one of his better games in a Liverpool shirt, but was still average, which says it all. He made one or two dcent interceptions, and didn't give the ball away often, but it is a measure of how shit he is that that is seen as "a good display".

 

It isn't. He passes sideways too often, and is utterly incapable of imposing himself and exerting a positive influence on a game when not everything is going well.

 

He is that most useless of players: looks OK when the team he is playing in is well on top. If we aren't, he can do absolutely NOTHING about it.

 

This midfield combination is ruinous, and must be changed.

[Paul]

As I've just said in the match thread, the lack of a player to dictate the movement of Mascherano, Lucas and Kuyt simply exposes their limitations and diminishes their strengths. Being an aggressive and hard-working player is pointless if it doesn't actually win us the ball or make sure we get it to our match winners. This was compounded by a strange malaise that affected the whole team yesterday. The tempo and aggression the two sides adopted was incomparable. Where were the tactics that served us so well for last season's run in?

[robslappa]

I thought Lucas was the better of the two yesterday. But on the whole central midfielders need to offer something going forward and neither of them do.

[havarantagain]

Move Gerrard into centre alongside Masch and have Yossi playing behind Torres and we'd look a lot better. That's got to be the way to go in the next game home to Stoke. The same team that we fielded against Spurs will not beat Stoke, who we know are just going to put all 11 players behind the ball and play for a draw as they did last season.

Correct, about our midfield should line up. But knowing Raffa he'll at best swap Lucas and Gerrard around and play Yossi instead of Babel. Babel is an impact player bet used off the bench.

[Paul]

I thought Lucas was the better of the two yesterday. But on the whole central midfielders need to offer something going forward and neither of them do.

 

It's more their ability to link the play rather than be a specific attacking threat that worries me. Our whole system is based upon having a defensive shield in front of the back four that is also able connect with the forwards. We have done this in the past by using Xabi's passing and by being compact as a team and, at our best, playing high up the pitch. None of that was present yesterday and we suffered as a result.

[zico]

It's more their ability to link the play rather than be a specific attacking threat that worries me. Our whole system is based upon having a defensive shield in front of the back four that is also able connect with the forwards. We have done this in the past by using Xabi's passing and by being compact as a team and, at our best, playing high up the pitch. None of that was present yesterday and we suffered as a result.

 

That's absolutely right, but Lucas and mascherano are incapable of passing the ball forward through the oppositions midfield, and without a decent supply Gerrard is a waste behind Torres..

 

Mind you, it does not help that Dirk and Babel chips in absolutely nada in the attacking department....

 

Yesterday was freightening....... Our limitation without Alonso and as a squad was so obvious.....

[havarantagain]

It's more their ability to link the play rather than be a specific attacking threat that worries me. Our whole system is based upon having a defensive shield in front of the back four that is also able connect with the forwards. We have done this in the past by using Xabi's passing and by being compact as a team and, at our best, playing high up the pitch. None of that was present yesterday and we suffered as a result.

We have lost a key part of our midfield in Xabi and with out a natural replacement. That means we'll take time to adjust to his loss. I, as many have suggested would let Gerrard play that role with Yossi or Lucas playing off Torres, unless we buy another striker. Whatever system Raffa chooses its the first game at a difficult side who are on the up, coming after a poor preseason and Xabi's loss. We'll come good as parts of our play showed yesterday, lets hope we are not 6-8 points off the leaders before we click.

[Whelan]

That's absolutely right, but Lucas and mascherano are incapable of passing the ball forward through the oppositions midfield, and without a decent supply Gerrard is a waste behind Torres..

 

Mind you, it does not help that Dirk and Babel chips in absolutely nada in the attacking department....

 

Yesterday was freightening....... Our limitation without Alonso and as a squad was so obvious.....

 

Oh for fucks sake!

 

When did Xabi Alonso play the ball throught he opposition midfield, at his best he was knitting everything together, he could have played yesterday and it wouldn;t have mattered because every time one of our centre halves got the ball they fucking twatted it up front to Torres!

 

I fucking despair I really do, the inability of 'the most knowledgeable fans' in the country to take a step back and recognise a fucking terrible TEAM performance when its staring them in the fucking face instead they just revert to whomever they have a dislike for and portion the blame on them.

 

We got beat by Tottenham away cos we were shite full stop.

[JohanH]

Oh for fucks sake!

 

When did Xabi Alonso play the ball throught he opposition midfield, at his best he was knitting everything together, he could have played yesterday and it wouldn;t have mattered because every time one of our centre halves got the ball they fucking twatted it up front to Torres!

 

I fucking despair I really do, the inability of 'the most knowledgeable fans' in the country to take a step back and recognise a fucking terrible TEAM performance when its staring them in the fucking face instead they just revert to whomever they have a dislike for and portion the blame on them.

 

We got beat by Tottenham away cos we were shite full stop.

 

Is absolutely correct in the context of last nights game.

[Paul]

Oh for fucks sake!

 

When did Xabi Alonso play the ball throught he opposition midfield, at his best he was knitting everything together, he could have played yesterday and it wouldn;t have mattered because every time one of our centre halves got the ball they fucking twatted it up front to Torres!

 

I fucking despair I really do, the inability of 'the most knowledgeable fans' in the country to take a step back and recognise a fucking terrible TEAM performance when its staring them in the fucking face instead they just revert to whomever they have a dislike for and portion the blame on them.

 

We got beat by Tottenham away cos we were shite full stop.

 

Listen mate, is there any chance you could calm down a bit, tone down the aggression and have a debate? If you want people to take on board your point of view, you need to form persuasive and cogent arguments. Simply raging about everyone else talking shit not only detracts from any point you're trying to make, but it also lead to the sort of stuff that ultimately ruins the forum. Clearly, like the rest of us, you're pissed off about losing yesterday, but let's banter about it, eh? Your passion is admirable, but raging at everyone else is just self-defeating.

[Ted]

If Pacheco had a bit more meat on him I'd throw him behind Torres.

[Whelan]

Listen mate, is there any chance you could calm down a bit, tone down the aggression and have a debate? If you want people to take on board your point of view, you need to form persuasive and cogent arguments. Simply raging about everyone else talking shit not only detracts from any point you're trying to make, but it also lead to the sort of stuff that ultimately ruins the forum. Clearly, like the rest of us, you're pissed off about losing yesterday, but let's banter about it, eh? Your passion is admirable, but raging at everyone else is just self-defeating.

 

I am not pissed off at losing, I am fine at losing.

 

And I am not aggressive, sorry, but what I have posted this morning is in no way different to what anyone else has posted last night or this morning! I think you would have a point If I was getting personal, which I have made sure I have not done.

 

I don't think I have been aggressive, but that is not for me to say, so fair enough and I apologise to Zico if he has taken it that way.

 

But I am not changing my argument, the constant targetting of individual players and the inability to even offer a smidgen of praise, or conciliatory gestures when they do offer the team something, is pathetic!

 

Yesterday had nothing to do with individual performances, it had everything to do with the team, which has been hit by a number of injuries in preseason, playing shite.

 

But if you think me toning down my arguments, will lead to harmony on the board then you are wrong!

 

And your tone was a tad patronising as well. Well intentioned and all that, and fair enough, first thing in morning nip a bit of agression in the bud. But a tad patronising none the less.

[zico]

Oh for fucks sake!

 

When did Xabi Alonso play the ball throught he opposition midfield, at his best he was knitting everything together, he could have played yesterday and it wouldn;t have mattered because every time one of our centre halves got the ball they fucking twatted it up front to Torres!

 

I fucking despair I really do, the inability of 'the most knowledgeable fans' in the country to take a step back and recognise a fucking terrible TEAM performance when its staring them in the fucking face instead they just revert to whomever they have a dislike for and portion the blame on them.

 

We got beat by Tottenham away cos we were shite full stop.

 

You being the selfprocalimed orakel of football and all, I guess we'll be hearing a lot about poor team performances in the weeks ahead as the opposition shuts down the supply for Torres and Gerrard.

 

It was a terrible team performance I agree: Carra and Skrtel looked rusty and were not able to communicate, Mascherano and Lucas only passes the ball 3 meters sideways or backwards, Kuyt and Babel did fuck all, Gerrard did not get into the game until he came back into the middle and Torres played a stinker.....

 

But if you cannot see the problem in our central midfield slowing the play down and only passing sideways and backwards, then you might not be as knowledgable as you think!!

 

If the supplyline to Gerrard and Torres is brought to a halt, we suffer and we have to rely on our wide players, who were absent yesterday... Beware, our rivals and future opponents will have taken notice!!

 

Alonso is gone and we have to move on I agree, but he was the most important piece of the above mentioned supplyline, as was fairly obvious judging by yesterdays performance...

 

The only positives were Reina, Johnson and Insua trying to get forward and Benayoun's impact when he came on. Oh, and Gerrards improved impact when he played deeper in midfield after Yossi's/Voronin's introduction...

[zico]

I am not pissed off at losing, I am fine at losing.

 

And I am not aggressive, sorry, but what I have posted this morning is in no way different to what anyone else has posted last night or this morning! I think you would have a point If I was getting personal, which I have made sure I have not done.

 

I don't think I have been aggressive, but that is not for me to say, so fair enough and I apologise to Zico if he has taken it that way.

 

But I am not changing my argument, the constant targetting of individual players and the inability to even offer a smidgen of praise, or conciliatory gestures when they do offer the team something, is pathetic!

 

Yesterday had nothing to do with individual performances, it had everything to do with the team, which has been hit by a number of injuries in preseason, playing shite.

 

But if you think me toning down my arguments, will lead to harmony on the board then you are wrong!

 

And your tone was a tad patronising as well. Well intentioned and all that, and fair enough, first thing in morning nip a bit of agression in the bud. But a tad patronising none the less.

 

I did not target any individual, as Lucas and Mascherano were ineffective as a pair, hence lies the problem...

[BatChainPuller]

Never has worked, never will.

[BatChainPuller]

If Pacheco had a bit more meat on him I'd throw him behind Torres.

 

[Whelan]

You being the selfprocalimed orakel of football and all, I guess we'll be hearing a lot about poor team performances in the weeks ahead as the opposition shuts down the supply for Torres and Gerrard.

 

It was a terrible team performance I agree: Carra and Skrtel looked rusty and were not able to communicate, Mascherano and Lucas only passes the ball 3 meters sideways or backwards, Kuyt and Babel did fuck all, Gerrard did not get into the game until he came back into the middle and Torres played a stinker.....

 

But if you cannot see the problem in our central midfield slowing the play down and only passing sideways and backwards, then you might not be as knowledgable as you think!!

 

If the supplyline to Gerrard and Torres is brought to a halt, we suffer and we have to rely on our wide players, who were absent yesterday... Beware, our rivals and future opponents will have taken notice!!

 

Alonso is gone and we have to move on I agree, but he was the most important piece of the above mentioned supplyline, as was fairly obvious judging by yesterdays performance...

 

The only positives were Reina, Johnson and Insua trying to get forward and Benayoun's impact when he came on. Oh, and Gerrards improved impact when he played deeper in midfield after Yossi's/Voronin's introduction...

 

Alonso is a loss, we know that, but he played his part in more than enough matches over last five years were the supply line was just as shite!

 

And I am most certainly not putting myself up as some sort of oracle, and I am sorry If I have given that impression, and also, sorry for being dismissive, I do completely disagree with you though.

 

Lucas yesterday was a positive in the sense that, we will need to play him more this year and he needs to improve, I think he did yesterday. I thought both full backs, whilst not necessarily playing well, showed us what they can bring to the team.

 

I just think we were out of sorts, I thought Carragher was abysmal yesterday, his distribution was appalling, as was Martins, and in the first half especially both Gerrard and Torres looked as though they have not played for six months!

[Paul]

I am not pissed off at losing, I am fine at losing.

 

And I am not aggressive, sorry, but what I have posted this morning is in no way different to what anyone else has posted last night or this morning! I think you would have a point If I was getting personal, which I have made sure I have not done.

 

I don't think I have been aggressive, but that is not for me to say, so fair enough and I apologise to Zico if he has taken it that way.

 

But I am not changing my argument, the constant targetting of individual players and the inability to even offer a smidgen of praise, or conciliatory gestures when they do offer the team something, is pathetic!

 

Yesterday had nothing to do with individual performances, it had everything to do with the team, which has been hit by a number of injuries in preseason, playing shite.

 

But if you think me toning down my arguments, will lead to harmony on the board then you are wrong!

 

And your tone was a tad patronising as well. Well intentioned and all that, and fair enough, first thing in morning nip a bit of agression in the bud. But a tad patronising none the less.

 

I think you're mistaking an attempt to broach a potentially touchy issue with good manners as patronising. I also think that going on about other people talking shit, be it specifically or generally, is inflammatory and the kind of thing that leads to the boorish and unpleasant arguments that spoil this place. Clearly you didn't see your post in that manner or (I assume) you wouldn't have posted that way. I did - hence the reason I tried to point it out to you without being a cunt about it.

 

The bit of your post I've highlighted in bold makes your point of view clearer. Hopefully you will now see that, as someone who always tries to be balanced in my criticisms, your previous rant was broadly critical of the points I've made this morning despite the fact they conformed to the standards of debate you say you're looking for: I made both individual and collective criticisms of our performance as well as highlighting the very few positives I saw.

 

As for toning down your arguments, you miss my point entirely - it's your arguments I'm interested in; the exasperation/frustration/anger with the opposing views is what I'm being critical of.

[devilsadvocate]

When lucas and mascherano play together the gap between our midfield and gerrard/torres is huge. We need somebody to link up defence and attack hopefully aqualani will be this player untill then gerrard needs to drop back. Yesterday because lucas and mascherano basically sat in front of the back four we were reduced to playing long balls to try to build an attack. Cant see it happening but if we could raise 15 million by selling babel and voronin and dossena plus the yanks give us something for once, maybe then we could get the extra attacking player we are gonna need to challenge for the title.

[edinjapan]

Yeah, they were crap against Man U at Old trafford last season.

 

As for pulling Gerrard back into Midfield, we only looked decent when he went behind Torres yesterday when Babel went off. Before that we looked all over the show.

 

It's one game. Lucas was one of our best players yesterday.

 

Lets' not get impatient, nothing gets won or lost on the first day of the season.