PODCAST: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 1 - Match Reaction

[JohnnyH]

26 minutes ago, JeanMichelFerriacrosstheMersey said:

Just listened to the pod and was struck by the lads saying that they’d be surprised if any Reds had listened given it was on the back of a bad defeat. Don’t know about anyone else, but for me the pod becomes even more important when we have lost badly as it provides a way for me to better understand why we underperformed, as well as the chance to put our performance into perspective and/or find some reason to remain optimistic. A post-defeat pod can also provides a laugh or two when us Reds need it most. 
 

So chin up Dave and the team and most definitely keep delivering the pod after losses. That’s when I for one certainly need it most. 

 

Pistolero. 

 

Absolutely this. The podcasts following a loss are always the ones that have the biggest impact on me. They help me process the reasons behind it, and always help me see the positives. 
 

I’ll be on my bus in the morning listening to this. I’ll board the bus worried about champions league qualification and get off the bus wondering how many games in advance we’ll win the league. It doesn’t matter how negative or positive the pod is, it always points me towards positive aspects. 
 

 

 

[Supremolad]

El Pistolero.

 

Trent did get skinned often when he was younger too. I reckon he's not really back to full fitness now though. Those blasting his "attitude" would do well to remember he was one of our better players when we knocked Arsenal out of the FA cup a few weeks ago. And he actually played on in that game after being injured. He made sure he stayed on to see us through. In those LFC TV off the field videos of interactions, quizzes and challenges with teammates, he is always ultra-competitive and really hates losing.

 

I think it was Dave who rightly mentioned that his body language occasionally would make people think he doesn't care but he really does. Before he went off yesterday, he did try to make things happen. It just wasn't coming off because Arsenal stifled us and Trent couldn't make out balls to the channels due to lack of Darwin from the start. I would have pushed him into midfield rather than sub him off when we did. At least he would have been closer to goal and probably could have made something happen that way.

 

[Razoray]

1 hour ago, johnsusername said:

On the match, I'd rather have had Jota, Nunez and Diaz up front, with Curtis, Mac and gakpo in midfield. Gravenberch is young and needs a lot of work.

Klopp seems to like having an impact off the bench. Gravenberch and Elliott wouldn't have given that. 

[Supremolad]

7 hours ago, No2 said:

The last time we where this pathetic in a big match was Madrid in Paris. We're an emotional team and I think the events before that match had a huge bearing on the performance and outcome. Similarly I'm think the events on Saturday around Bradley have probably played their part. They're all in a hotel together then news spreads of a death in a  teammates family. They're not robots, that type of stuff has to play a part.

Rewriting history there. We were not pathetic in Paris. We absolutely battered Madrid for long spells. The fact that Courtois was MOTM attests to it. Had to make 9 saves including a couple worldies.

[Brownie]

35 minutes ago, Supremolad said:

Rewriting history there. We were not pathetic in Paris. We absolutely battered Madrid for long spells. The fact that Courtois was MOTM attests to it. Had to make 9 saves including a couple worldies.

Yeah we played well, just weren’t ruthless.

[Paul]

2 hours ago, Supremolad said:

El Pistolero.

 

Trent did get skinned often when he was younger too. I reckon he's not really back to full fitness now though. Those blasting his "attitude" would do well to remember he was one of our better players when we knocked Arsenal out of the FA cup a few weeks ago. And he actually played on in that game after being injured. He made sure he stayed on to see us through. In those LFC TV off the field videos of interactions, quizzes and challenges with teammates, he is always ultra-competitive and really hates losing.

 

I think it was Dave who rightly mentioned that his body language occasionally would make people think he doesn't care but he really does. Before he went off yesterday, he did try to make things happen. It just wasn't coming off because Arsenal stifled us and Trent couldn't make out balls to the channels due to lack of Darwin from the start. I would have pushed him into midfield rather than sub him off when we did. At least he would have been closer to goal and probably could have made something happen that way.

 

That was me on Trent’s body language. 

[Heinze]

Would have preferred Bradley over Trent to be honest.

[JohnnyH]

This is how disappointed I was with the result. I sat downstairs....

 

So yes, that was a pretty negative pod.  Not too much good was picked out of the performance to try and be positive from, but that's probably because there was no good to pick out of it. However, we said all along that this is the first season of a new midfield and a new(ish) style of play so these types of performances will and can happen.

 

One thing that was spoken about was Virg and Konate letting the ball bounce.  I've noticed that a lot this season and they were going it a lot in the Chelsea game and in the recent Cup game too.  It's basics of defending not to let it bounce so it's very weird to see both centre backs doing it regularly?

[Paul]

I wonder if they’re being coached to do something different in certain defensive situations. As you say, there’s the bounce of the ball thing, but there’s also the thing Dave mentioned about where Virgil runs to when he tracks back. Both defy conventional wisdom, but our defenders seem to consistently play that way. I can only assume they’re following instructions. 

[aws]

42 minutes ago, Paul said:

I wonder if they’re being coached to do something different in certain defensive situations. As you say, there’s the bounce of the ball thing, but there’s also the thing Dave mentioned about where Virgil runs to when he tracks back. Both defy conventional wisdom, but our defenders seem to consistently play that way. I can only assume they’re following instructions. 

Maybe the stats guys have calculated that in certain positions you’re better to let in a clean shot from a wide position and stay more central to pick up a parry from the keeper rather than risk a deflection and be nowhere if the keeper just blocks it. It doesn’t pass the eye test though. 

[JohnnyH]

And, we have the joint best defence in the league, so arguably it's working.  It would just feel a lot more likes it's working if we hadn't just made a defensive howler that cost us a vital gamne.

[Brownie]

On the ball bouncing thing, the old school approach is to not let it bounce and deal with it. That often means that you just head it away and it becomes 50/50 on where the ball drops and creates a second ball situation.

 

The aggressive way is to let it bounce, use your body and then retain possession. It’s a risk/reward thing so I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that we/Kloppo take that approach.

[kemskem]

I still listen after a defeat but I nearly gave this one a miss. 

[lebron]

Way behind on this one, as it’s (luckily) been a crazy couple of days at work. Somewhat therapeutic but also frustrating to re-live what was a real stinker of a performance.

 

My main takeaways from the game (and the pod)

 

1. Van Dijk had a horrorshow. All 3 goals are mainly on him. Can’t believe Allison gets the blame for the 2nd. That is 90 pct on Virgil, 10 pct on Martinelli/Taylor. Van Dijk needs to be stronger, of course, when he isn’t (and doesn’t resort to a dive to provoke a FK), he blocks Allison from getting to the ball. More on the ref later btw.  

 

The first goal, Virgil absolutely can’t leave his space in the middle if he is not 100 per cent sure he’s going to get to the ball before Ødegaard. Our press was too easily bypassed in the build-up (like numerous times on Sunday), but that attack will at most end up in a half-chance if Virgil doesn’t get caught in midfield. The 3rd goal I see some people on the match thread are suggesting our coaches are teaching our defenders to defend like Virgil does. That may have held some water if there were other Arsenal players in the box. There were none. Trossard was on his own. I think Van Dijk just doesn’t take enough pride in his defending in that instance, and gambles on Allison sparing his blushes (like he mostly does). Allison sets himself a bit too early, but the late deflection from Virgils late and lazy block just about makes him helpless. Add those 3 goals to a passive display of defending in general and I think you have a pretty good answer to why we lost. Van Dijk has been back to almost peak this season, and he has built up more than enough credit to have a day off. We need him back at his best sharpish though. I think Konate and Van Dijk are a better CB duo than Arsenal’s pair, but in these games I’d like to see a bit more aggression and shithousery from them (especially if the referee allows the same actions from both sides….).

 

2. Our press wasn’t working. At all. Both Diaz and Jota worked hard, and Curtis, Mac Allister  and Gomez had the rest of the central/left side locked up. At times, it seemed like we wanted them to be able to play through on our right, that’s how bad of a job Gakpo/Gravenberch did. Trent didn’t cover himself in glory either, of course.

 

3. We couldn’t get the ball to stick up front (or in behind) I would just about agree on starting Nunez, despite the injury concerns. As aggressive and high up the pitch as they were pressing, we needed something to worry them in behind. The ball didn’t stick when Darwin came on either, and he had minimal effect on our success in behind too, so it might not have worked anyway. Gabriel and Saliba is a pretty good duo, but the hope is that they wouldn’t have had such an easy day. Having a referee that allowed their back 4/5 to play 1970s style physical football probably didn’t help our cause…

 

4. Says a lot about how badly we’ve been shafted over the last couple of years when people (Jules on the pod?) thought the refereeing performance wasn’t a talking point. I get that most of us are angry/disappointed at the team (and individuals), as we’re used to us winning and playing well. While I agree that our play (and lack of it) was the main talking point, I can’t believe the easy ride Taylor is getting. Every time an Arsenal player hits the deck and screams, a free kick is given, while our players are near assaulted without consequence. The “death by a thousand cuts” aspect just can’t be overlooked in games like these, and Taylor is more than happy to oblige in terms of helping the home team. Both Diaz and Gakpo were denied blatant FKs numerous times in the 1st half, leading to us surrendering position in dangerous areas, giving Arsenal (and the crowd) momentum. When we were on top in the 2nd half, similar/milder offences by us were gleefully given. The worst one being the 1st yellow for Konate. It’s incomprehensible that that is given as a FK, never mind a yellow to Konate. If anything, it’s a foul by Havertz. He runs/backs into Konate, grabs his shirt, and when he realises he’s being outmuscled flails his arms, screams and falls to the floor. The crowd senses that this could be an opportunity (given that Havertz seems to be one-on-one with Ibou), and when Havertz falls to the floor Taylor more than happily obliges the crowd and the Arsenal players. The 2nd yellow is the same. It’s barely a free kick, 1 out of a 100 will give it as a yellow, and I guarantee you that you willI never see anyone again giving that as a 2nd yellow. I was  actually a bit annoyed at Jules for saying Konate put his arm/hand in Havertz face. He didn’t!I Look at the contempt he shows when he waves for Diaz and Nunez to get up from their wrestling from behind for comparison to Havertz, Jorginho and their blatant dives. 

 

I actually think he gives a foul if Diaz does the same to Saliba as Martinelli did to Virgil for the 2nd goal, even if Saliba stays on his feet. I’m not 100 per cent if Van Dijk gets a free if he dives there judging by Taylors other actions. Martinelli clearly barges into him from behind. 

 

On Taylor. I was at Anfield (for the first time in a decade) for the Newcastle game, and as pleasing as that game and performance was, I nearly blew a fuse because of Taylor.  The contrast to how he reffed the home team in that game and this one reeks of him hating us. Sorry. I’m not so sure there’s a corruption angle to this, but there is no way he isn’t biased against us. Having 54000 rabid supporters screaming “You Manc bastard” from the top of their lungs probably isn’t helping our long term relations, but at the game it is impossible not to react to that sort of incompetence/bias.

 

How the hell are you supposed to take the league seriously when more than 50 pct of our games are done by referees from the city of our most hated rivals (and in later years our only other rival)? I know it sounds a bit small-time, but the club should seriously start pushing their mouthpieces in the media to question this phenomenon, to rid  us from getting all these Manc baldies reffing our games. How do you think the footballing public in Spain would react to Barcelona residents reffing most of Real Madrids games? I can’t fathom why this isn’t seen as a BIG issue. There is such an obvious conflict of interest. I just can’t believe that an organisation with the turnover and exposure of the PL can’t see that this is a bit dubious. I find it incredibly off-putting, and I’m pretty sure this (along with City’s cheating) are among the main reasons that Klopp has been burnt out. The sense of injustice must be through the roof. This is without even acknowledging the refereeing trips to Abu Dhabi.

 

Sorry about the rant. Got worked up again by writing this.

Hopefully we will be THAT good for the rest of the season that those PGMOL wankers won’t deny Klopp and his players another title.

 

Thanks for a good.listen, again!

 

[Paul]

This your burner account Dave?

[dave u]

Fucking great post that. Lebron I mean, not Paul.

[dave u]

23 hours ago, Paul said:

I wonder if they’re being coached to do something different in certain defensive situations. As you say, there’s the bounce of the ball thing, but there’s also the thing Dave mentioned about where Virgil runs to when he tracks back. Both defy conventional wisdom, but our defenders seem to consistently play that way. I can only assume they’re following instructions. 

 

From what I've seen though Virgil is the only one who does it, so I don't think it's coaching. If Quansah had done that everyone would be putting it down to inexperience. He wouldn't have done it though, neither would Konate or Gomez. Defo a Virgil thing.

 

The letting it bounce is different, Konate does that a lot and then uses his body to keep the ball so that might be coaching. I just don't think the 'straight line' running by Virgil is, but its something to look out for.

[dave u]

On 05/02/2024 at 19:43, Supremolad said:

El Pistolero.

 

Trent did get skinned often when he was younger too. I reckon he's not really back to full fitness now though. Those blasting his "attitude" would do well to remember he was one of our better players when we knocked Arsenal out of the FA cup a few weeks ago. And he actually played on in that game after being injured. He made sure he stayed on to see us through. In those LFC TV off the field videos of interactions, quizzes and challenges with teammates, he is always ultra-competitive and really hates losing

 

 

Every full back gets skinned, Bradley got skinned by Wilson recently, it's an occupational hazard. My Trent issue is how he's getting skinned. I referenced it in the match report, too often people are walking past him because he's square on and can't react. That wasn't something he was doing when he was younger, not to this degree anyway.

 

I have no question about his competitiveness or will to win, I just feel like he's given up on working on the defensive side of playing right back because in his mind he's a midfielder now. That whole right side of the team was horrendous though, he wasn't helped by that but he has to control the things he can control, such as not getting walked past.

 

I'd just move him to midfield now and have done with it. I was one who was always against that because he was the best right back in the world. He's not anymore though. 

[dave u]

On 05/02/2024 at 18:51, JohnnyH said:

Absolutely this. The podcasts following a loss are always the ones that have the biggest impact on me. They help me process the reasons behind it, and always help me see the positives. 
 

I’ll be on my bus in the morning listening to this. I’ll board the bus worried about champions league qualification and get off the bus wondering how many games in advance we’ll win the league. It doesn’t matter how negative or positive the pod is, it always points me towards positive aspects. 

 

Can't speak for the other lads but personally I was feeling that way because I knew it wasn't going to be one of those "let's have a laugh even though the result was shit" pods. I didn't feel like we'd be cheering anyone up as we were all on such a downer. Sometimes it might make more sense to record the day after, but I think when it's not a late kick off in midweek we really have to try and get it out asap, and when it's so soon it can be a bit raw.

[Supremolad]

1 hour ago, dave u said:

 

Every full back gets skinned, Bradley got skinned by Wilson recently, it's an occupational hazard. My Trent issue is how he's getting skinned. I referenced it in the match report, too often people are walking past him because he's square on and can't react. That wasn't something he was doing when he was younger, not to this degree anyway.

 

I have no question about his competitiveness or will to win, I just feel like he's given up on working on the defensive side of playing right back because in his mind he's a midfielder now. That whole right side of the team was horrendous though, he wasn't helped by that but he has to control the things he can control, such as not getting walked past.

 

I'd just move him to midfield now and have done with it. I was one who was always against that because he was the best right back in the world. He's not anymore though. 

You are balanced enough to recognise that him getting skinned doesn't mean he doesn't care or he has become too big for his boots. This is the same player who picked an injury during the Arsenal FA cup game and stayed on to help us win it.

 

The issue I have is people who think he doesn't give a fuck and is acting a prima donna. His body language might be languid but he clearly cares. Even at right back there are many times this season he has busted a gut to defend properly. People just pick and choose what suits their narrative. I still believe he wasn't fully sharp against Arsenal on Sunday. I reckon he rushed back from his injury. We see with some players they don't get back into top rhythm straight after recovering from injury, even if they have trained a few times. And I think he is one of them.

[Supremolad]

Great post, LeBron. I also posted in the match report thread about Van Dijk getting less heat than he deserved. His high standards had started dipping even before the game on Sunday. He was the biggest contributor to our lack of tempo and played at walking pace for huge parts of the first half.

 

Against Norwich, he didn't go close down a player who was approaching with intent to shoot. Let him shoot while waving a lazy leg, bang - goal. The Chelsea goal, he could have done better too. And also gave Tierney two chances to award penalties against us, if the cunt had wanted to. The sloppy, lackadaisical actions had been piling up before van Dijk's shitshow on Sunday. The hope is he is now ready again to do the dirty graft which he had mostly done till recently.

[The wanderer]

On 06/02/2024 at 05:01, dave u said:

 

Not used it yet other than in the front garden on the astroturf green. Very first putt with it was a 20 footer right in the middle though.

Would you recommend getting fitted for a putter Dave ?

[The wanderer]

On 07/02/2024 at 07:48, lebron said:

Way behind on this one, as it’s (luckily) been a crazy couple of days at work. Somewhat therapeutic but also frustrating to re-live what was a real stinker of a performance.

 

My main takeaways from the game (and the pod)

 

1. Van Dijk had a horrorshow. All 3 goals are mainly on him. Can’t believe Allison gets the blame for the 2nd. That is 90 pct on Virgil, 10 pct on Martinelli/Taylor. Van Dijk needs to be stronger, of course, when he isn’t (and doesn’t resort to a dive to provoke a FK), he blocks Allison from getting to the ball. More on the ref later btw.  

 

The first goal, Virgil absolutely can’t leave his space in the middle if he is not 100 per cent sure he’s going to get to the ball before Ødegaard. Our press was too easily bypassed in the build-up (like numerous times on Sunday), but that attack will at most end up in a half-chance if Virgil doesn’t get caught in midfield. The 3rd goal I see some people on the match thread are suggesting our coaches are teaching our defenders to defend like Virgil does. That may have held some water if there were other Arsenal players in the box. There were none. Trossard was on his own. I think Van Dijk just doesn’t take enough pride in his defending in that instance, and gambles on Allison sparing his blushes (like he mostly does). Allison sets himself a bit too early, but the late deflection from Virgils late and lazy block just about makes him helpless. Add those 3 goals to a passive display of defending in general and I think you have a pretty good answer to why we lost. Van Dijk has been back to almost peak this season, and he has built up more than enough credit to have a day off. We need him back at his best sharpish though. I think Konate and Van Dijk are a better CB duo than Arsenal’s pair, but in these games I’d like to see a bit more aggression and shithousery from them (especially if the referee allows the same actions from both sides….).

 

2. Our press wasn’t working. At all. Both Diaz and Jota worked hard, and Curtis, Mac Allister  and Gomez had the rest of the central/left side locked up. At times, it seemed like we wanted them to be able to play through on our right, that’s how bad of a job Gakpo/Gravenberch did. Trent didn’t cover himself in glory either, of course.

 

3. We couldn’t get the ball to stick up front (or in behind) I would just about agree on starting Nunez, despite the injury concerns. As aggressive and high up the pitch as they were pressing, we needed something to worry them in behind. The ball didn’t stick when Darwin came on either, and he had minimal effect on our success in behind too, so it might not have worked anyway. Gabriel and Saliba is a pretty good duo, but the hope is that they wouldn’t have had such an easy day. Having a referee that allowed their back 4/5 to play 1970s style physical football probably didn’t help our cause…

 

4. Says a lot about how badly we’ve been shafted over the last couple of years when people (Jules on the pod?) thought the refereeing performance wasn’t a talking point. I get that most of us are angry/disappointed at the team (and individuals), as we’re used to us winning and playing well. While I agree that our play (and lack of it) was the main talking point, I can’t believe the easy ride Taylor is getting. Every time an Arsenal player hits the deck and screams, a free kick is given, while our players are near assaulted without consequence. The “death by a thousand cuts” aspect just can’t be overlooked in games like these, and Taylor is more than happy to oblige in terms of helping the home team. Both Diaz and Gakpo were denied blatant FKs numerous times in the 1st half, leading to us surrendering position in dangerous areas, giving Arsenal (and the crowd) momentum. When we were on top in the 2nd half, similar/milder offences by us were gleefully given. The worst one being the 1st yellow for Konate. It’s incomprehensible that that is given as a FK, never mind a yellow to Konate. If anything, it’s a foul by Havertz. He runs/backs into Konate, grabs his shirt, and when he realises he’s being outmuscled flails his arms, screams and falls to the floor. The crowd senses that this could be an opportunity (given that Havertz seems to be one-on-one with Ibou), and when Havertz falls to the floor Taylor more than happily obliges the crowd and the Arsenal players. The 2nd yellow is the same. It’s barely a free kick, 1 out of a 100 will give it as a yellow, and I guarantee you that you willI never see anyone again giving that as a 2nd yellow. I was  actually a bit annoyed at Jules for saying Konate put his arm/hand in Havertz face. He didn’t!I Look at the contempt he shows when he waves for Diaz and Nunez to get up from their wrestling from behind for comparison to Havertz, Jorginho and their blatant dives. 

 

I actually think he gives a foul if Diaz does the same to Saliba as Martinelli did to Virgil for the 2nd goal, even if Saliba stays on his feet. I’m not 100 per cent if Van Dijk gets a free if he dives there judging by Taylors other actions. Martinelli clearly barges into him from behind. 

 

On Taylor. I was at Anfield (for the first time in a decade) for the Newcastle game, and as pleasing as that game and performance was, I nearly blew a fuse because of Taylor.  The contrast to how he reffed the home team in that game and this one reeks of him hating us. Sorry. I’m not so sure there’s a corruption angle to this, but there is no way he isn’t biased against us. Having 54000 rabid supporters screaming “You Manc bastard” from the top of their lungs probably isn’t helping our long term relations, but at the game it is impossible not to react to that sort of incompetence/bias.

 

How the hell are you supposed to take the league seriously when more than 50 pct of our games are done by referees from the city of our most hated rivals (and in later years our only other rival)? I know it sounds a bit small-time, but the club should seriously start pushing their mouthpieces in the media to question this phenomenon, to rid  us from getting all these Manc baldies reffing our games. How do you think the footballing public in Spain would react to Barcelona residents reffing most of Real Madrids games? I can’t fathom why this isn’t seen as a BIG issue. There is such an obvious conflict of interest. I just can’t believe that an organisation with the turnover and exposure of the PL can’t see that this is a bit dubious. I find it incredibly off-putting, and I’m pretty sure this (along with City’s cheating) are among the main reasons that Klopp has been burnt out. The sense of injustice must be through the roof. This is without even acknowledging the refereeing trips to Abu Dhabi.

 

Sorry about the rant. Got worked up again by writing this.

Hopefully we will be THAT good for the rest of the season that those PGMOL wankers won’t deny Klopp and his players another title.

 

Thanks for a good.listen, again!

 

I know. I will probably be in the minority here but I think that if Allison stays in position for the 2nd ball Virgil gets the ball away. Martinelli is the wrong side of him and I think he would struggle to get around Virgil to get the shot on goal . I haven’t really looked at the other two . Agree with you that if Nunez gave Saliba the nudge that Martinelli gave Virgil that twat Taylor would probably have given a free kick for them.

[dave u]

16 minutes ago, The wanderer said:

Would you recommend getting fitted for a putter Dave ?

 

It can't hurt, but I think it's far more important to get fitted for a driver than a putter. I think with a putter most of it is about feel, how it looks to your eye, what you're comfortable with and what inspires confidence. You can get most of that without a fitting really. That putter fitting I had for the feature I wrote usually costs two grand and although it was very informative and it was cool seeing how the process works, the main thing I took from it was that the data told me I was decent, whereas I'd always thought I was shit. 

 

I'm reviewing loads of new putters for Golf Monthly at the moment and honestly, I reckon I could use any of them and not really notice much difference in performance with 'El Pistolero'. At the pro level the tiny details make a difference. For the rest of us, not so much.

 

Where a fitting would be really useful is if you're either really short or really tall, or have a weird stance or something that would require customisations to be made in length, loft, lie etc

 

Otherwise you probably won't get loads from it other than being able to try out different putters and get feedback from someone who knows what they're looking for. 

[dave u]

11 hours ago, Supremolad said:

Against Norwich, he didn't go close down a player who was approaching with intent to shoot. Let him shoot while waving a lazy leg, bang - goal. The Chelsea goal, he could have done better too. And also gave Tierney two chances to award penalties against us, if the cunt had wanted to. The sloppy, lackadaisical actions had been piling up before van Dijk's shitshow on Sunday. The hope is he is now ready again to do the dirty graft which he had mostly done till recently.

 

I didn't see it like that at the time (especially the Chelsea non pens) but yeah in hindsight that's all probably fair.