Is it safe to come out yet? - by John Brennan

[TheHowieLama]

 I think he needs to bring something extra to the table, notably at the back.

 

Both are possible, as numerous teams have shown over the years.

 

Numerous teams have shown that you can jump from a top 6 team to winning the title? If we exclude Chelsea from about 15 years ago I can think of one. Their owners are the richest in this league.

[johnb]

I meant that attacking flair and defensive solidity are not mutually exclusive.

[Tony Moanero]

Blimey, it stinks in here. Has someone dropped one?

[Rotpeter]

When we click (which has happened a lot and will continue to do so) we are as good as anyone there is.

 

Am I negative? Yes, no shit Sherlock.

 

We've progressed under him (cf. our League positions). But I'm beginning to wonder how far more he can take us, that is all.

 

If the expectation is to be in the Top Four every season, then fine. To really challenge for the Title? I think he needs to bring something extra to the table, notably at the back.

 

Both are possible, as numerous teams have shown over the years.

Bring what some oil-wells?

[johnb]

It's all about money isn't it? That's going to be trotted out for ever more.

 

Any point, even if it is reasonable, is batted away.

[stringvest]

OK, so why are we suddenly one of the two best teams in the league when it comes to conceding shots against if klopp has not done anything positive with our defense?

 

 

11/12: 3rd - 11.1 shots against per game under The King

 

12/13: 4th - 11.5 shots against per game under Rodgers

 

13/14: 7th - 12.6 shots against per game under Rodgers

 

14/15: 5th - 10.9 shots against per game under Rodgers

 

15/16: 2nd - 10.5 shots against per game under combination of Rodgers and Klopp

 

16/17: 2nd - 8.2 shots against per game first full season under Klopp

 

17/18: 2nd - 7.8 shots against per game so far this season under Klopp

 

 

that stat would have some meaning if there was a correlation between shots and goals conceded.  There's no qualatitive element.    

[TheHowieLama]

It's all about money isn't it? That's going to be trotted out for ever more.

 

Any point, even if it is reasonable, is batted away.

 

I think when you start talking about really challenging for the title it is going to have to be about money.

 

If you are saying we could nick a few more points over the course of the season by bringing in a top quality CB (money) and tightening up at the back not many would disagree. But that does not sound like what you are saying.

[stringvest]

This thread has more legs than john could have ever wished for.  People need to be offended by something, thank heavens.  

[johnb]

In my next piece, I'll be less snarky! Just factual!

[Jairzinho]

Fuck that. This has been the most interesting thread on here for ages.

[SlugTrail]

You will be burned at the stake for such reasoned, balanced and adult observations - you do realise that don't you?

 

The Rev

[jimmycase]

When we click (which has happened a lot and will continue to do so) we are as good as anyone there is.

 

Am I negative? Yes, no shit Sherlock.

 

We've progressed under him (cf. our League positions). But I'm beginning to wonder how far more he can take us, that is all.

 

If the expectation is to be in the Top Four every season, then fine. To really challenge for the Title? I think he needs to bring something extra to the table, notably at the back.

 

Both are possible, as numerous teams have shown over the years.

 

Given the wealth of the two manchester clubs (one of which is financially doped) and chelsea, I think it's a bit naive to think we're going to finish top four every season given we're also competing with arsenal and spurs plus, ignoring any rank outsider having a one off season.

 

Yes,I know we are Liverpool and our aspirations should be higher but that totally ignores the financial situation in the PL today.

 

No doubt the line will be trotted out about the club should spend more money. OK, how much more season on season and where's it coming from to match the 2 mancs and chelsea?

[johnb]

Jimmy,

 

That's what I've been trying to get at. Given that our "rivals" basically have free money, should we re-evaluate and just hope to have the odd great European night and maybe a Cup every couple of seasons?

 

Is the Title something we can no longer aspire to? Unless, of course, Klopp defies financial logic and delivers. Or could some other genius come in and do more with less?

[Pureblood]

The last man who won a cup in his first season was promptly sacked.  If I was Jurgen Klopp I'd prioritise top four. 

[johnb]

The last man who won a cup in his first season was promptly sacked.  If I was Jurgen Klopp I'd prioritise top four. 

That's a whole nother issue. And a scandal, to boot.

[Russ Atmosphere]

I think a lot would need to happen before FSG call time on Klopp. Business is booming. He's probably going to have to get caught boffing Linda.

[Pureblood]

That's a whole nother issue. And a scandal, to boot.

 

I didn't like it either, it's something Klopp and Rodgers have had to deal with though in the reality of their management.  Cups are no good with the CL dollar, otherwise...  

[TheHowieLama]

Yep - I heard Klopp told the team to lose the last couple of finals because of it.

[jimmycase]

Jimmy,

 

That's what I've been trying to get at. Given that our "rivals" basically have free money, should we re-evaluate and just hope to have the odd great European night and maybe a Cup every couple of seasons?

 

Is the Title something we can no longer aspire to? Unless, of course, Klopp defies financial logic and delivers. Or could some other genius come in and do more with less?

 

Of course we should still aspire to the title. What I have said and am saying is twofold. First, the likelyhood of us winning the title is a lot less than people's expectations given the spending power of at least 3 clubs. Then, we also have the other two clubs I mentioned.

 

Secondly, some people see winning a trophy such as the league cup or fa cup as a bigger importance than trying to win the title. I dont see us winning the title while we continue to try and be competitive in those competitions.

 

But, none of that addresses the stuff you've been posting about a manager than appears 'clueless' and hasnt fixed anything in 2 years, blah, blah, blah. So, I have to stand by my comments that you're just on a wind up.

[johnb]

On a wind-up? Seriously?

 

I've done another piece (fact-based and very heavy on statistics) that you'll probably see soon enough on here.

 

But I maintain what I said, even if you still think I'm on a wind-up: very little has changed for the better in our defence since he got here. Things have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of laods of other stuff (League position, goals scored, attacking play) but at the back, we are abysmal and that's going to cost us.

[aws]

To win the League with our level of spending we need to consistently over-achieve on the pitch and for things outside our control to go our way. We came quite close with Houllier, Benitez and Hodgson but each time the side who came top put together a great run of results to pip us.

 

There should be no expectation that any manager wins the title when we're competing against sides with greater resources and better squads. Our current 'level' is challenging for fourth and our only real hope of over-achieving is to allow a manager time and some decent funding to see if he can build something greater than the sum of its parts. And by 'time' I mean 5 years plus not 2-3 years.

[jimmycase]

On a wind-up? Seriously?

 

I've done another piece (fact-based and very heavy on statistics) that you'll probably see soon enough on here.

 

But I maintain what I said, even if you still think I'm on a wind-up: very little has changed for the better in our defence since he got here. Things have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of laods of other stuff (League position, goals scored, attacking play) but at the back, we are abysmal and that's going to cost us.

 

Yes, seriously. Im sorry but that's the vibes I get from your posts. You've been critical of the manager, Ive no problem with that, you're entitled to that opinion. But you then went on to claim the manager hasnt a 'clue,' and hasnt improved the team in the 2 years he's been here. That, is palpable nonesense.

 

I said when Klopp was appointed it would take him 2 or 3 summer windows to get the team he wants. He brought in Karius in an attempt to improve the goalkeeper position. That doesnt look to have worked. He wanted to bring in van Dijk. We all know how that worked out.

 

I dont see how anyone, even someone with your own admited negativity, could just go this manager hasnt a 'clue' for 2 years, cant see him fixing it yet is content for that manager to remain in situ.

 

I get the occasional loss of belief, the negativity. We've all been there. But, constant negativity and no belief in the manager? Nah, not having it.

[smilezzz]

Yes, seriously. Im sorry but that's the vibes I get from your posts. You've been critical of the manager, Ive no problem with that, you're entitled to that opinion. But you then went on to claim the manager hasnt a 'clue,' and hasnt improved the team in the 2 years he's been here. That, is palpable nonesense.

 

I said when Klopp was appointed it would take him 2 or 3 summer windows to get the team he wants. He brought in Karius in an attempt to improve the goalkeeper position. That doesnt look to have worked. He wanted to bring in van Dijk. We all know how that worked out.

 

I dont see how anyone, even someone with your own admited negativity, could just go this manager hasnt a 'clue' for 2 years, cant see him fixing it yet is content for that manager to remain in situ.

 

I get the occasional loss of belief, the negativity. We've all been there. But, constant negativity and no belief in the manager? Nah, not having it.

.

[TheHowieLama]

 We came quite close with Houllier, Benitez and Hodgson but each time the side who came top put together a great run of results to pip us.

 

 

On a wind up??!! Srsly?

[s(k)aturation]

To win the League with our level of spending we need to consistently over-achieve on the pitch and for things outside our control to go our way. We came quite close with Houllier, Benitez and Hodgson but each time the side who came top put together a great run of results to pip us.

 

There should be no expectation that any manager wins the title when we're competing against sides with greater resources and better squads. Our current 'level' is challenging for fourth and our only real hope of over-achieving is to allow a manager time and some decent funding to see if he can build something greater than the sum of its parts. And by 'time' I mean 5 years plus not 2-3 years.

 

That's a bleak outlook.

To win the League, we need to rely on all 3 of the better resourced City, Chelsea and United to be below their par in the same season... and then we have to outperform Arsenal and Spurs at our own level and perhaps any surprise package (e.g. A Leicester 15/16).

A lot has to go right - perfect storm type thing.

Could be 5 years.  Could be 15.