Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Brexit has shattered unity in both parties.

I disagree. The Tories have been divided on Europe since Maastricht, at least, and the major division in Labour is between the right-wing of the PLP and everyone else in the Party, on the issue of whether a Corbyn-led government is preferable to another Tory one.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I'll delete when he deletes his false claims of antisemitism or calling me pondlife.

 

Are we REALLY, REALLY saying that an opinion piece in the Jewish Chronicle has antisemitic undertones? Like, REALLY, REALLY?

No. We're REALLY REALLY saying that taking a piece of writing about Jewish stereotypes and flinging it in the face of a Jewish person while shouting "That's you, that is" is undeniably, overtly anti-Semitic.

 

Think it through.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I know two-thirds of Labour voted remain , but I don't think the Remainers are generally as entrenched in their views as the Leavers , so I don't think too many would switch away from Labour if there was not a 2nd election pledge but they liked a lot of the rest of the manifesto , but a goodly proportion of Labour 'Leave' voters would go Tory / UKIP immediately if a 2nd vote was put forward, leaving Labour struggling significantly in Labour held / targeted areas.

Also, much of the Leave vote was a protest vote against mainstream Westminster politicians - the ones who are perceived as all the same, out of touch, only in it for themselves and full of contempt for ordinary people. (Much of Corbyn's appeal is that he doesn't fit that mold.) A policy of "we heard what you said, but we know better, so we're going to ignore it" is not a guaranteed vote-winner.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's been a clusterfuck politically but to the man on the street it's been a deserved shake up of the same old same old.

 

People can blame and snigger at the working class from places like the north east etc but they suffered 10 years of pistol whipping austerity under Camernon and Osborne. It would have carried on. The no vote changed the political landscape.

 

The easing of public pay and clampdown on public sector all came about because people had the courage to shake the kaleidoscope.

 

The prospect of a true socialist govt has resulted in the no vote.

 

In the words of Michael Foot on leaving the eu "Don't be afraid"

OK.

 

Previously you've equated the EU with neoliberalism. (It really isn't the same thing.) You've also tried to portray Cameron and Osborne riding off into other cushy, well-paid jobs, leaving the way clear for the more Fascist-friendly Tories to get into positions of power, as some sort of popular victory over austerity. (It isn't. )

 

Are you now trying to equate the General Election results - in which a party leadership who had campaigned to remain and most of whose members voted to remain, performed surprisingly well after a campaign in which Brexit was hardly an issue - with a narrow Referendum result, in which the decisive demographic was middle class Tories spooked by "the Other" coming here from abroad?

 

You talk about "the man on the street". I'm a man and I live on a street. I can see that every single Brexit scenario will make life worse for working class people like me. We will have fewer jobs, less pay, higher prices for essentials, fewer rights (especially under Tories), weaker environmental and consumer protections and less security (if we cannot cooperate as at present). And the supposed upside of this? We have racists encouraged by the prospect of fewer foreigners.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It may be worth remembering when labelli g out voters as 'little inglunders that the Cameron govt helped in the destruction of Libya and Yemen. Peace and love?

And that's a reason to vote against the Tories.

 

Do any of your arguments against the EU have anything to do with the EU?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The country voted for Brexit and both major party’s know it was down to immigration and freedom of movement. It’s the sticking point and whoever blinks first and is willing to compromise on it is going to end up losing a lot of votes. Easily enough to cost them an election.

 

Half.

 

Half the country voted for Brexit.

[Rico1304]

Half.

Half the country voted for Brexit.

37%?

[Numero Veinticinco]

Of the voters, obviously.

[The Guest]

Half.

 

Half the country voted for Brexit.

The sentiment is the same regardless of the semantics. Enough people voted to leave the EU to win the referendum and it was down to immigration. You can round the votes up and down if you like but it is what it is. More people voted leave than remain. Leaving the EU and keeping freedom of movement would be a half way house that wouldn’t satisfy anyone. It’s obviously just my opinion but I reckon the vote would be the same were we to hold it again. People up and down the country get told how great the economy is because of the EU as they go to a poorly paid job, on overpriced public transport that’s late, crowded and unreliable, sometimes on roads that are in a mess, with a struggling NHS and education system along with every other public service. When the experts tell people the economy is going to crash if they leave the EU so they better accept unlimited immigration as well it’s surely no shock that most think fuck it, what have we got to lose anyway. As much as people try to talk away the strain of immigration on public services there’s no getting away from it that it clearly does happen. People see it with their own eyes.

 

This is coming from a remainer as well.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's not semantics. 51.9% doesn't round up to 100%. The margin of victory is so slim that it's not unreasonable to suggest that a majority today might vote to remain. Nor is it unreasonable to suggest that the illegal campaign ads and the lies (about £350m, about Turkey, etc.) might have been decisive.

 

Any approach to Brexit that doesn't address the concerns of half the population is morally wrong, anti-democratic and a guarantee of chaos.

 

As for "the strain of immigration on public services" that's bollocks. It's a lie to cover up long-term underfunding. Immigrants - particularly EU immigrants - are net contributors to public finance; they pay in much more than they take out. The contrast with the net contribution of the "indigenous" population is stark. There are also many thousands of EU immigrants working in public services, filling skills gaps and keeping things working. Send them home and we're even more fucked.

 

If people appreciated the truth about that, I wonder how many would have decided not to vote to make public services worse.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

No. We're REALLY REALLY saying that taking a piece of writing about Jewish stereotypes and flinging it in the face of a Jewish person while shouting "That's you, that is" is undeniably, overtly anti-Semitic.

 

Think it through.

I have. It's not. Clumsy. Yes. Anrisemitic? Not a chance. Not under the IHRA definition.

 

Feel free to withdraw your baseless allegation whenever you see fit.

[Rico1304]

No. We're REALLY REALLY saying that taking a piece of writing about Jewish stereotypes and flinging it in the face of a Jewish person while shouting "That's you, that is" is undeniably, overtly anti-Semitic.

Think it through.

Always had him pegged. Can we just agree I was right all along?

[Jenson]

The sentiment is the same regardless of the semantics. Enough people voted to leave the EU to win the referendum and it was down to immigration. You can round the votes up and down if you like but it is what it is. More people voted leave than remain. Leaving the EU and keeping freedom of movement would be a half way house that wouldn’t satisfy anyone. It’s obviously just my opinion but I reckon the vote would be the same were we to hold it again. People up and down the country get told how great the economy is because of the EU as they go to a poorly paid job, on overpriced public transport that’s late, crowded and unreliable, sometimes on roads that are in a mess, with a struggling NHS and education system along with every other public service. When the experts tell people the economy is going to crash if they leave the EU so they better accept unlimited immigration as well it’s surely no shock that most think fuck it, what have we got to lose anyway. As much as people try to talk away the strain of immigration on public services there’s no getting away from it that it clearly does happen. People see it with their own eyes.

 

This is coming from a remainer as well.

 

All caused deliberately by this Tory government, not the EU.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I think it's been highlighted in this thread why Labour should stick to their guns regarding the requirement for "antisemitic intent" to be shown when dealing with certain allegations of antisemitism.

 

I mean, the many threads/posts relating to Islam contain surveys, articles etc which appear to have been posted to say "see, look, this is how they act" etc along with disclaiming posts saying it's not bigotry or racism to make these general observations or critical comments about Islam.

 

Yet, when you do the same thing about ONE single Jewish person, obviously with no animus, but instead a clear intent to troll a troll, the baseless allegations are thrown about.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Always had him pegged. Can we just agree I was right all along?

Not arsed about your opinion. Troll.

[The Guest]

It's not semantics. 51.9% doesn't round up to 100%. The margin of victory is so slim that it's not unreasonable to suggest that a majority today might vote to remain. Nor is it unreasonable to suggest that the illegal campaign ads and the lies (about £350m, about Turkey, etc.) might have been decisive.

 

Any approach to Brexit that doesn't address the concerns of half the population is morally wrong, anti-democratic and a guarantee of chaos.

 

As for "the strain of immigration on public services" that's bollocks. It's a lie to cover up long-term underfunding. Immigrants - particularly EU immigrants - are net contributors to public finance; they pay in much more than they take out. The contrast with the net contribution of the "indigenous" population is stark. There are also many thousands of EU immigrants working in public services, filling skills gaps and keeping things working. Send them home and we're even more fucked.

 

If people appreciated the truth about that, I wonder how many would have decided not to vote to make public services worse.

I’m not saying round it up to 100% and I’m saying you’re rounding it down by saying half. And I’m saying that’s got nothing to do with my point anyway. I’m saying a majority voted out (a small majority is still a majority) and I personally think that was down to immigration. You’ve got every right to argue about all the shenanigans the leave campaign pulled but that is a different argument about running the referendum again.

 

My original point is that the people who voted leave voted because of freedom of movement. If Corbyn or May change their stance to allow freedom of movement to get a better trade deal then they are signing their own death warrant. The party that does that will lose badly at the next election. That’s the reason neither of them are doing it.

 

My points about the strain on public services are my opinion. People can try and swat away the arguments by saying they are net contributors financially but that is only in and out in terms of how much tax do they pay to how many claim benefits. It doesn’t take into account how many more schools and hospitals need to be built to accommodate the growing population of immigrants and how much more wear and tear there is on the roads and public transport for example. It doesn’t take into account those things because they are unquantifiable but they do exist.

 

I think you’re argument about taking into account the 48 per cent who voted remain is a well meaning one but in reality it’s not that easy. People voted out to control the borders. By leaving the EU but accepting freedom of movement you’re essentially saying to the majority vote we are ignoring you and doing what the 48% want because we need to take their view into account as well.

 

I can’t remember who put it above but I said in hindsight that’s what should have been on the ballot in the first place. Remain in the EU or leave controlling the borders even if that means the EU give us a no deal. It was obviously difficult envisaging that but I reckon the vote would have been the same. The govt would then have had a stronger hand when talking to the EU because straight off the bat they would know that the UK were controlling the borders regardless and they wouldn’t be able to hold out hoping the UK would fold on the issue.

[The Guest]

All caused deliberately by this Tory government, not the EU.

I agree. I’m just saying that’s the reality. If we have all these things anyway why do we have to put up with the strain of immigration as well. I obviously know things can get worse which is why I voted remain but I reckon the majority who voted leave thought fuck it.

[Anny Road]

I think enough people voted leave who didn’t give a shit about free movement to swing the result.

Good posts The Guest you make a lot of good points.

 

I think free movement is a massive benefit to the economic model the EU is trying to promote.

Personally I think it sucks balls that people have to move hundreds of miles, be separated from family to do shitty minimum wages jobs just to afford food and shelter. The whole system is fucked.

[Section_31]

I think enough people voted leave who didn’t give a shit about free movement to swing the result.

Good posts The Guest you make a lot of good points.

 

I think free movement is a massive benefit to the economic model the EU is trying to promote.

Personally I think it sucks balls that people have to move hundreds of miles, be separated from family to do shitty minimum wages jobs just to afford food and shelter. The whole system is fucked.

 

That's what capitalism does though, It either moves to the place its exploiting or it moves the people its exploiting to it.

 

Was sat in a surreal meeting in my old job once where they were bemoaning the rise in production costs of clothes because the Chinese were demanding better wages and they were having to move their operations to Cambodia as a result.

[Anny Road]

That’s why I voted leave. I’m pointing in the other direction.

[magicrat]

I disagree. The Tories have been divided on Europe since Maastricht, at least, and the major division in Labour is between the right-wing of the PLP and everyone else in the Party, on the issue of whether a Corbyn-led government is preferable to another Tory one.

 

The decades old band of Tory Eurosceptics are in no way comparable to  the open mutiny led by Mogg now, The looming showdown is a seminal moment for the Tories. The majority of the PLP doesn't wan't Brexit or at the very least to stay in the customs union. Corbyn won't back that position,  I think he should which I believe would make another Tory government less likely

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

A few recent whispers that a vote for adopting mandatory reselection might pass at the upcoming Labour Conference in September, after Unite hinted that they might give their backing.

 

There'll potentially be a few MP's with very twitchy bumholes in the not too distant future.

[Rico1304]

A few recent whispers that a vote for adopting mandatory reselection might pass at the upcoming Labour Conference in September, after Unite hinted that they might give their backing.

 

There'll potentially be a few MP's with very twitchy bumholes in the not too distant future.

Probably a few constituents twitchy that their long serving and competent MP is at risk. Fuck that though hey.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Labour have competent MPs?

[Rico1304]

Labour have competent MPs?

You sound surprised.