Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[magicrat]

Interesting piece on R4 this morning about the EU. Apparently it has a higher approval rating over here than in France and Germany.

They have more sense than to give cunts like Farage and Johnson a platform to further their ambitions disguised as a referendum.

[skend04]

Polling is as clear as always...

 

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9687

[VladimirIlyich]

Interesting piece on R4 this morning about the EU. Apparently it has a higher approval rating over here than in France and Germany.

Generally because their governments,on occasion,do things for the benefit of their citizens rather than do almost everything to make their lives more miserable.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Jimmyheadcase.

 

Or head the ball.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

[Nightcat]

Which of the two girls taking the picture are you tuebrook?

[Rico1304]

Which of the two girls taking the picture are you tuebrook?

Ha ha

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Adidas trackie.

[SasaS]

Polling is as clear as always...

 

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9687

 

Ipsos Mori poll today seems to be taken seriously by financial markets, 55 - 37, 18 points lead for Remain.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/05/18/sterling-surges-higher-after-rogue-u-k-poll-shows-large-lead-for-remaining-in-eu/

 

[Gnasher]

If I had a pound for every person claiming to care about how undemocratic the EU is that didn't vote for their MEP I'd be on a fucking beach in the Bahamas.

In balance I don't think that many people actually vote FOR politicians/political parties, they don't vote governments in they vote them out.

[Stu Monty]

In balance I don't think that many people actually vote FOR politicians/political parties, they don't vote governments in they vote them out.

Well they won't have tried to vote anyone out either.

 

Because they aren't really arsed about it being undemocratic.

[lifetime fan]

Boris Johnson waffling on like he's Churchill. Still wouldn't buy car insurance off him though.

 

 

Brilliant, I'm stealing that.

[Spy Bee]

Well they won't have tried to vote anyone out either.

 

Because they aren't really arsed about it being undemocratic.

They are arsed about the loss of the right to have an influence. Some people don't vote because they are satisfoed with the status quo (amongst many other reasons obviously), but that doesn't mean they would happily give away their chance to ever have a say again.

 

After much consideration I am voting out.

[Stu Monty]

Why would they be losing the right to have an influence?

[Spy Bee]

Why would they be losing the right to have an influence?

Because of the sheer volume of people, countries, cultures involved in the United States of Europe. 

 

The flip side of this is the argument that leaving the Tories to run the UK unrestrained by the powers that be in Europe is a scary scenario. I agree it is, but we would soon see them voted out of power if their policies became as extreme as people fear. 

 

In general terms, the more I have read and the more people I have spoken to, I can't see a reason to stay within the EU. Most arguments tend to be that to vote leave you need to be some kind of neoliberal, racist right winger, That's just rhetoric. This isn't a left wing - right wing issue.

[Stu Monty]

Because of the sheer volume of people, countries, cultures involved in the United States of Europe.

 

The flip side of this is the argument that leaving the Tories to run the UK unrestrained by the powers that be in Europe is a scary scenario. I agree it is, but we would soon see them voted out of power if their policies became as extreme as people fear.

 

In general terms, the more I have read and the more people I have spoken to, I can't see a reason to stay within the EU. Most arguments tend to be that to vote leave you need to be some kind of neoliberal, racist right winger, That's just rhetoric. This isn't a left wing - right wing issue.

Seems bizarre that you'd be arsed about your one vote mattering very little because there are a lot of people in Europe.

 

You elect an MEP in the same way you elect an MP. To represent your area.

 

Ironically voting out will quickly lead to Scottish independence meaning your parliamentary vote will mean absolutely fuck all in a hugely Tory new landscape.

[Spy Bee]

Seems bizarre that you'd be arsed about your one vote mattering very little because there are a lot of people in Europe.

 

You elect an MEP in the same way you elect an MP. To represent your area.

 

Ironically voting out will quickly lead to Scottish independence meaning your parliamentary vote will mean absolutely fuck all in a hugely Tory new landscape.

 

I don't see why a dilution of influence being a concern is bizarre. This is why Microsoft and loads of other Blue Chip Organisations want us to remain in Europe. They can centralise (and so reduce) their lobbying spend and gain yet more influence.

 

I live in Wales mate, we'd be next in line.

 

This is all speculation though.

[Stu Monty]

I don't see why a dilution of influence being a concern is bizarre. This is why Microsoft and loads of other Blue Chip Organisations want us to remain in Europe. They can centralise (and so reduce) their lobbying spend and gain yet more influence.

 

I live in Wales mate, we'd be next in line.

 

This is all speculation though.

But how is it any less democratic?

 

It isn't diluting your influence is it? You still get one vote, and as such have an equally infinitesimal influence either way.

[VladimirIlyich]

Because of the sheer volume of people, countries, cultures involved in the United States of Europe. 

 

The flip side of this is the argument that leaving the Tories to run the UK unrestrained by the powers that be in Europe is a scary scenario. I agree it is, but we would soon see them voted out of power if their policies became as extreme as people fear. 

 

In general terms, the more I have read and the more people I have spoken to, I can't see a reason to stay within the EU. Most arguments tend to be that to vote leave you need to be some kind of neoliberal, racist right winger, That's just rhetoric. This isn't a left wing - right wing issue.

 

You are obviously very lucky that you or your family don't need to rely on the NHS,are in Education or are out of work. It's already happening and has been for some time,and yet who is in power with less than a quarter of the vote?

[Spy Bee]

You are obviously very lucky that you or your family don't need to rely on the NHS,are in Education or are out of work. It's already happening and has been for some time,and yet who is in power with less than a quarter of the vote?

I'm not saying this system is perfect, but the option is there for people to have an influence. I'd much prefer some form of proportional representation, but that's not what we are talking about here. I don't know why you presume to know things about me or my family?

 

Stu, why don't we just have a new world order then with one government? We could still have votes and we'd all still get a voice.

[VladimirIlyich]

I'm not saying this system is perfect, but the option is there for people to have an influence. I'd much prefer some form of proportional representation, but that's not what we are talking about here. I don't know why you presume to know things about me or my family?

 

Stu, why don't we just have a new world order then with one government? We could still have votes and we'd all still get a voice.

The point I am making re family is that if you have a family and need to rely on those services then I am quite amazed that you would want to withdraw from an organisation that seems to care more about them than our own government. These services are on their knees at present and have been for a while under a government who are pandering to a small amount of powerful people to leave the EU.

[Stu Monty]

I'm not saying this system is perfect, but the option is there for people to have an influence. I'd much prefer some form of proportional representation, but that's not what we are talking about here. I don't know why you presume to know things about me or my family?

 

Stu, why don't we just have a new world order then with one government? We could still have votes and we'd all still get a voice.

 

Well you can choose to have that system or not, it doesn't really change the fact that any claim about having your own personal influence diluted is just ridiculous.

 

You get one vote. It is almost entirely without influence (unless your MP is elected by one vote). That is not going to change based on the size of the chamber you are sending your representative to. It also doesn't make that representative any less accountable. 

 

I'd venture most people moaning about unaccountable and undemocratic representatives do not know who is on their local council either. The area where their vote theoretically is statistically most powerful. Again, this is because democratic accountability is not something they care about.

 

The option is there for people to have the almost exactly the same influence on their local council, MP and MEP. The "I want to have a say in what happens" argument just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Spy Bee]

The point I am making re family is that if you have a family and need to rely on those services then I am quite amazed that you would want to withdraw from an organisation that seems to care more about them than our own government. These services are on their knees at present and have been for a while under a government who are pandering to a small amount of powerful people to leave the EU.

These services being on their knees has nothing to do with the EU. They have not been able to protect them, or they wouldn't be in such a mess.

 

Stu, the EU hasn't signed off accounts for twenty years and don't seem to be held to account by anybody. You can argue about the mathematics of the situation, but there is a deomcratic deficit and a lack of accountability. My personal belief is that we can have more influence over policy in a smaller state. This might be a matter of debate, but I feel more comfortable knowing we can vote out a government without having to get agreement with a large majority of Europe, and I'm not on my own, many other more qualified people have voiced these concerns. Not read all this yet, but it's along the lines of my thoughts https://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/04/understanding-the-european-unions-facade-democracy/

 

I know this referendum is not about a United States of Europe, but look how far we've come since we agreed to a financial union, and the direction of things is clear.

 

As I mentioned before, I think it plays into the hands of corporations influencing policy.

[Section_31]

You do wonder what the 'engine' for the EU is. Is it just Merkel? The French are rioting all the time and voting for right wing loons, the Scandos don't seem that fussed on the EU either - who actually is pushing this union forward? 

[Spy Bee]

You do wonder what the 'engine' for the EU is. Is it just Merkel? The French are rioting all the time and voting for right wing loons, the Scandos don't seem that fussed on the EU either - who actually is pushing this union forward? 

Corporates and highly paid civil servants to name two parties.