Kiev Kick Offs

[aws]

A people's right to self-determination is not subject to the approval of the people they're seeking independence from. 

[Stu Monty]

How is it? The SNP referendum is going ahead with the approval of the UK government, and the results will be non-binding (although the government have essentially agreed to abide by them).

 

The Crimea "referendum" is more akin to getting your neighbours together and declaring your street to be an independent state.

 

No, it's akin to having your leader ousted in what seems to be a very dubious affair and a massive swathe of the country not wanting to be part of it. That's what it's like.

 

Or, in your terms, the neighbours have got together, stormed downing street, possibly had a vote by force to turn the government to a direction your street want and then saying the rest of the country can wait until you tell them they can have a say on what happens (highly probably after you've signed certain financial measures without their say). Then crying it in when a massive area tells you to co fuck yourself, they'll re-border themselves with another nation.

[Stu Monty]

Presume SD must be fucking furious at the government for doing nothing but talking when they could immediately stun Russia with fiancial measures aimed at the City of London's Russian contingent?

 

Almost as if "international law" is somehow not that important to them?

[Strontium]

Except that Crimea only became part of Ukraine in 1954 as part of a restructuring of the USSR. Now remind me, didn't you tell me that Nato's agreement to not touch Russian borders was only relevant whilst the Soviet Union existed. I presume that you feel the same way about this agreement?

There was no Nato "agreement", was there, and the situations are not remotely similar anyway.

 

A people's right to self-determination is not subject to the approval of the people they're seeking independence from.

I suggest you take it up with the people who make international law.

 

I don't really see how the future of a portion of the Ukraine can be determined without the involvement of Ukraine in discussions.

[Stu Monty]

International law is irrelevant really isn't it? Why would Russia respect something other people don't?

 

And why would people wanting self-determination feel constrained by something, once again, that isn't respected if it told them they could have self-determination?

 

Is there a secret handshake to allow you to laugh at international law that people in The Crimea need to learn?

[Red Phoenix]

It's depressing that 7+ billion people are controlled by a bunch of fucking morons and their media outlets.

 

The US gov are the worst thing since Nazi Germany, but actually worse, seeing as they have nuclear bombs. They're a massive fucking problem and something should be done about them. I hope they have some type of revolution from within, because if they have to be sorted externally they'll probably end up trying to pepper most of the planet with their bombs.

 

They're a fucking disgrace and it's sickening. We only ever get periodic peace before they start off on another selfish and deluded war path (because nothing is ever enough for them.) which simply proves again why they're the worst and most dangerous bunch on the planet.

[Stu Monty]

They aren't worse than the nazis. Stop being daft.

[General Dryness]

Thing is, when you get to that level of shitness, worse is an abstract concept. Theres just varying degrees of ordinary people getting fucked.

 

I think the Nazis have the edge when it comes to slaughtering innocents, though.

[Red Phoenix]

They aren't worse than the nazis. Stop being daft.

 

I think they are. Note that I said government, I don't mean the general population. (I'm more inspired by American musicians, writers, game creators, etc, than I am by the same from any other country. So my issue is definitely not with the American people.) What they're doing is worse for me because the Nazis tried to take over huge swathes of territory openly, whereas the US often try to do it via the CIA and other means. They're not bothered about openly being seen to own countries, just to control them. And over time, where will this end? Because they're controlled by corporations it will never end unless the influence on their government is ended.

 

So if you rack up the amount of death that the Nazis caused and then rack up the death that the CIA + US military have caused in stupid wars for energy, control, etc, by the time they're done, maybe they'll clearly be worse. Who knows how long this is going to go on for? At some point all the statistics will prove that they're clearly worse than the Nazis. They're not openly insane like the them, clearly, but it's the death and destruction they've actually caused and that they're still causing, that to me puts them on par now.

 

If any country even tries to be socialist they're basically put on a hit list, just for trying to be decent to their people, which lowers the standard of living for basically the whole planet. They're trying to control the world, and it's only Russia and China that are really stopping them.

[Red Phoenix]

I think the Nazis have the edge when it comes to slaughtering innocents, though.

 

This is because the US aren't seen to be slaughtering innocents. They just install insane governments that do the slaughtering for them. If you add in all of the people they've placed into power things soon become a whole lot worse.

 

Anyway I'll not continue down this line, I'm just pissed off with the whole thing. If this is soon over peacefully it's only going to be for a short while, then it'll just start up again somewhere else. That's the problem for me, and the thing that ultimately pisses me off. They always just start the whole thing up again at a later date.

 

The defense contractors in the US have too much of a controlling interest and they need their money too, so they need war somewhere. Even the Russians are a nightmare with this though, the sales of arms all over the place. That's a whole other aspect though I guess.

[Red Phoenix]

Have just found this, will try to stomach reading it through in full later :

 

 

After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated "war on terrorism."

 

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

 

The causes of wars are complex. In some instances nations other than the U.S. may have been responsible for more deaths, but if the involvement of our nation appeared to have been a necessary cause of a war or conflict it was considered responsible for the deaths in it. In other words they probably would not have taken place if the U.S. had not used the heavy hand of its power. The military and economic power of the United States was crucial.

 

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

 

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

 

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

 

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

 

To the families and friends of these victims it makes little difference whether the causes were U.S. military action, proxy military forces, the provision of U.S. military supplies or advisors, or other ways, such as economic pressures applied by our nation. They had to make decisions about other things such as finding lost loved ones, whether to become refugees, and how to survive.

 

And the pain and anger is spread even further. Some authorities estimate that there are as many as 10 wounded for each person who dies in wars. Their visible, continued suffering is a continuing reminder to their fellow countrymen.

 

It is essential that Americans learn more about this topic so that they can begin to understand the pain that others feel. Someone once observed that the Germans during WWII “chose not to know.” We cannot allow history to say this about our country. The question posed above was “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.

 

http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm

[Stu Monty]

I think there's a difference between actually actively wanting to slaughter a certain section of the population and not being that arsed if the guy you send weapons to is doing it to his own people (on a much smaller scale). If you ask me would most of the US government have taken a less violent course than Pinochet took for the same ends, I'd say yes, if offered it (although those in the pay of the war industry may well not be amongst those back then and even now). They'd take everyone bending the knee and being good little lambs over slaughtering everyone.

 

It's not even the US government you want to be getting mad at, it's now a global plutocracy (that just have a lot more power and a lot more desire to have influence in the US).

 

Murdoch isn't from the US or the UK yet his influence is massive. As I put in another thread I think there's about 150-odd people who now provide 80% of the funding for the president of the country with a military and covert-ops infrastructure that dwarves everybody else. They may not all be yanks. It is hugely concerning.

 

Come back to me in 40 years when there's mass famine due partly to a plutocracy that preferred the planet to melt than to lose a few quid, then I may re-assess my nazi comments.

[Red Phoenix]

It's not even the US government you want to be getting mad at, it's now a global plutocracy (that just have a lot more power and a lot more desire to have influence in the US).

Yeah good point. If it wasn't for the idiots with money outside the US that eventually corrupted it, it would never have been as bad as it is in the first place. So agreed that you're right with that.

[s(k)aturation]

 

I think the Nazis have the edge when it comes to slaughtering innocents

 

Pretty rank amateurs, though, when compared with the likes of Mao, Stalin and, per capita, Pol Pot.

 

Not that there should be a "hit parade" of evilness of course.

[Lightforce]

Have just found this, will try to stomach reading it through in full later :

 

 

 After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated "war on terrorism."

 

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

 

The causes of wars are complex. In some instances nations other than the U.S. may have been responsible for more deaths, but if the involvement of our nation appeared to have been a necessary cause of a war or conflict it was considered responsible for the deaths in it. In other words they probably would not have taken place if the U.S. had not used the heavy hand of its power. The military and economic power of the United States was crucial.

 

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

 

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

 

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

 

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

 

To the families and friends of these victims it makes little difference whether the causes were U.S. military action, proxy military forces, the provision of U.S. military supplies or advisors, or other ways, such as economic pressures applied by our nation. They had to make decisions about other things such as finding lost loved ones, whether to become refugees, and how to survive.

 

And the pain and anger is spread even further. Some authorities estimate that there are as many as 10 wounded for each person who dies in wars. Their visible, continued suffering is a continuing reminder to their fellow countrymen.

 

It is essential that Americans learn more about this topic so that they can begin to understand the pain that others feel. Someone once observed that the Germans during WWII “chose not to know.” We cannot allow history to say this about our country. The question posed above was “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.

 

http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm

 

 

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lightforce]

 

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I think they are.

Yes, but you're wrong. Wrong to the point of utter ridiculousness. Anybody who says the Americans are worse than the Nazis either doesn't have the first fucking idea what they're talking about when it comes to the Nazis or they're generally off their fucking rocker.

[Lightforce]

Yes, but you're wrong. Wrong to the point of utter ridiculousness. Anybody who says the Americans are worse than the Nazis either doesn't have the first fucking idea what they're talking about when it comes to the Nazis or they're generally off their fucking rocker.

A little from column A, a little from column B.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

Actually there is. He's right about Isreal. They are the biggest abusers of International Law and you know they are. Even my 4 year old god daughter knows that. And she plays with Barbie dolls.

Heard her say to Ken (in her Barbie voice) "Back the fuck off of Palastine Ken ya twat"

[Red Phoenix]

Yes, but you're wrong. Wrong to the point of utter ridiculousness. Anybody who says the Americans are worse than the Nazis either doesn't have the first fucking idea what they're talking about when it comes to the Nazis or they're generally off their fucking rocker.

 

I thought we'd at least accepted by now that I'm a little off my fucking rocker.

 

Anyway, I woke up in a bad mood and went over the top, apologies all.

[KopOut]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-communists-condemn-violence-and-the-us-eu-for-orchestrating-a-coup-with-fascists/5372336

[Stu Monty]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-communists-condemn-violence-and-the-us-eu-for-orchestrating-a-coup-with-fascists/5372336

 

Hard to argue with most of that.

[Alan Sex]

[Alan Sex]