Kiev Kick Offs

[Jairzinho]

For the vast majority of Tory supporters the primary motivations are greed and selfishness.  It tends to be those towards the evil end of the spectrum who become leading lights in right wing parties or movements.  

 

Hmm, lots are also ludicrously ignorant. Plenty of people that vote Tory aren't even remotely best represented by them. They can just be easily convinced that the amount of Bulgarians that live in their town is far more important than, for e.g, the state of the NHS, or education system.

 

I think it is also ignorance rather than a lack of intelligence. I know quite a few people my age that previously had very little interest in politics but tended to believe the snippets of xenophobic hate that they'd heard somewhere, or read in their five minutes of tabloid skimming. They were almost right wing by default. As Section said, it provides far more simplistic explanations. One lad I know who now has quite a keen interest in politics can't believe how right wing he used to be.

[Red Phoenix]

Guardian comment :

 

 

The right of a people to self-determination is a fundamental principle of international law. This overrides national constitutional law.

 

Of course, another principle of international law is the right of states to territorial integrity. But the right to self-determination overrides this under certain circumstances.

 

Ukraine's present circumstances -- following an anti-constitutional change of government and the imposition of an unelected regime adopting unconstitutional measures -- give "due cause" for the Crimean people to exercise their right to self-determination (particularly in view of the fact that they were already citizens of an autonomous territorial entity - the Autonomous Republic of Crimea).

 

edit : removed my comment after the quote. It's a new week, can't be arsed with posting here as frequently and getting wound up about it as much.

[Strontium]

Excellent article by Ian Birrell

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-crisis-there-is-no-moral-equivalence-between-moscow-and-kiev-9180016.html

 

Particularly appropriate to this thread and those who insist on playing the role of Putin's useful idiots:

 

Perhaps worst of all are those on all sides who seem to assume there is some kind of moral equivalence between Moscow and Kiev. There needs to be more clarity about what happened last month in Ukraine, rather than playing Putin’s game of pretending democracy was ditched and the country seized by fascists and street gangsters.

 

After the slaughter of scores of unarmed protesters, a deal was agreed with foreign diplomats for an elected president to give up some powers to parliament. Instead, as his supporters switched sides to save their own skins, the president fled – and within hours, allegations of his grotesque theft from state coffers became widespread. A temporary government was formed, with elections due in May. This was far from a coup and, as historian Timothy Snyder pointed out, reducing presidential powers and restoring democracy could not be further from fascism.

[xerxes]

Excellent article by Ian Birrell

Particularly appropriate to this thread and those who insist on playing the role of Putin's useful idiots:

I am a bit surprised that you should be taken in by a script writer for David Cameron.

 

By any measure, Russia has legitimate security concerns regarding access to its Black Sea Fleet, AND the Crimea has a significant population who look to Russia both on an ethnic and security basis.

 

It's an imperfect world. Of course Russia will flex its muscles.Equally, uncertain, unknown, and equally unjust alternatives, offer no perfect solution.

[Stu Monty]

Excellent article by Ian Birrell

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-crisis-there-is-no-moral-equivalence-between-moscow-and-kiev-9180016.html

 

Particularly appropriate to this thread and those who insist on playing the role of Putin's useful idiots:

 

 

This facade of being a poster driven to conclusions based on evidence is really falling apart. That you don't question many of the assertions in that quote is embarrassing.

 

Also, learn your lesson from calling people economically illiterate and then having to back-track when boxed into a corner and cut out calling people with a differing opinion (which they are far more willing to flesh out with a deeper understanding of an issue) idiots.

[Strontium]

There is no evidence from any reputable source that contradicts anything above.

 

And "useful idiots" as a phrase does not literally mean idiots. I would have thought that you, of all people, would be aware of its provenance.

[VladimirIlyich]

I cant recall many defending Putin on here other than to say his country has legitimate claims in the same way the US has when one if its neighbours is in turmoil.

 

I will repeat it again,no good guys here.

[polymerpunkah]

No good guys anywhere.

 

No doubt Putin has legitimate concerns.

 

The question is, do those concerns justify him taking part of another country?

 

What threat was there? What could the "new" Ukrainian admin do, given the number of Russian troops in (and around) the Crimea?

 

My hope is this is just a move intended to pressure the "new" administration into some sort of deal restoring the situation as it was prior to the president leaving the country.

 

I don't see a disintegrating Ukraine being in anyone's interests.

[Section_31]

No good guys anywhere.

 

No doubt Putin has legitimate concerns.

 

The question is, do those concerns justify him taking part of another country?

 

What threat was there? What could the "new" Ukrainian admin do, given the number of Russian troops in (and around) the Crimea?

 

My hope is this is just a move intended to pressure the "new" administration into some sort of deal restoring the situation as it was prior to the president leaving the country.

 

I don't see a disintegrating Ukraine being in anyone's interests.

I think it's similar to what happened with Georgia, it's not just about Ukraine but about serving notice that they won't sit idly by while the EU and Nato make inroads into their back yards.

[Strontium]

I think it's similar to what happened with Georgia, it's not just about Ukraine but about serving notice that they won't sit idly by while the EU and Nato make inroads into their back yards.

 

It ceased to be their business when Ukraine and Georgia won independence from the USSR, of course.

[Section_31]

 

It ceased to be their business when Ukraine and Georgia won independence from the USSR, of course.

Agreed, but global superpowers will get shirty at that kind of shit. Watch what'd happen to Mexico in the unlikely event of an Islamic revolution.

[Red Phoenix]

The fact that I've seen only a few articles detailing the numerous bad things about western involvement in Ukraine by the bought and paid for media, while the comment sections often seem split around 50/50, says everything for me. Not even worth arguing it any more really.

 

edit : originally said I'd seen one article, but changed it to a few. Saw a couple more as I was searching through around 17 pages at the Guardian looking for the one I actually meant, but couldn't find it.

[polymerpunkah]

I can see Putin's concerns, obviously. They're not unique.

 

The US has promoted/defended the Monroe Doctrine (that north and south America are their zone of exclusive influence) for 200 years.

 

But that's not a justification for invading/annexing territory every time there's a change in government in a neighbouring country.

[Red Phoenix]

As President Viktor Yanukovych apparently surfaced in Russia, claiming to still be the president and promising a press conference on Friday, Ukraine's parliament set about taking measures to recover some of the billions of dollars they say went missing under his kleptocratic regime.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/ukraine-search-missing-billions-yanukovych-russia

 

 

At least he didn't reach the trillions. I wonder why they don't bring that up very often? Maybe something to do with it being the fortunes of the western elite that most of them are working for?

[Fugitive]

Red Phoenix is a lizard.

[PestiRed]

Of course shitloads of money went missing. This is Eastern Europe and you can't apply Western standards to politicians. Everyone here gets seriously rich from politics, it's the reason to get involved. And, by the way try living in a country that is transitioning from corrupt to straight. Nothing works for years.

 

Having said that, is Mark Thatcher really a genius businessman? Or have a quick look at Bush Jr and our former owner

[Red Phoenix]

Red Phoenix is a lizard.

 

Only sometimes.

[Coro]

In a statement on 4 March 2014, Foreign Minister William Hague deceived the House of Commons about the legitimacy of the new regime in Ukraine.

He led the House to believe that the Ukrainian parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, had removed President Yanukovich from power on 22 February in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution.

"It is wrong to question the legitimacy of the new authorities", he said.

It is simply untrue that the Rada followed the procedure laid down in the Ukrainian constitution to impeach and remove a president from power.

Article 108 of the constitution specifies four circumstances in which a president may cease to exercise power before the end of his term. Those are:

• resignation;
• inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
• removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
• death.

The procedure for removal from office by impeachment is laid down in Article 111. It is not unlike that required for the impeachment and removal from power of a US president, which could take months.

Thus, Article 111 obliges the Rada to establish a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president, seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president's guilt for the Rada to consider. To find the president guilty, at least two-thirds of Rada members must assent.

Prior to a final vote to remove the president from power, the procedure requires

• the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and
• the Supreme Court of Ukraine to certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment.

To remove the president from power, at least three-quarters of Rada members must assent.

The Rada didn't follow this procedure at all. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved. On 22 February, the Rada simply passed a bill removing President Yanukovych from office.

Furthermore, the bill wasn't even supported by three-quarters of Rada members as required by Article 111 - it was supported by 328 members, when it required 338 (since the Rada has 450 members).

Nevertheless, justifying UK support for the new regime in Kiev in the House of Commons on 4 March, William Hague said:

"Former President Yanukovych left his post and then left the country, and the decisions on replacing him with an acting President were made by the Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, by the very large majorities required under the constitution, including with the support of members of former President Yanukovych's party, the Party of Regions, so it is wrong to question the legitimacy of the new authorities."

That gives the impression that the procedure prescribed in the Ukrainian constitution for the removal of a president from office had been followed, when in fact it hadn't and therefore the new authorities in Kiev are illegitimate.

President Putin questioned the legitimacy of the authorities in Kiev at his press conference on 4 March, just before William Hague spoke in the House of Commons:

"Are the current authorities legitimate? The Parliament is partially, but all the others are not. The current Acting President is definitely not legitimate. There is only one legitimate President, from a legal standpoint. Clearly, he has no power. However, as I have already said, and will repeat: Yanukovych is the only undoubtedly legitimate President.

"There are three ways of removing a President under Ukrainian law: one is his death, the other is when he personally steps down, and the third is impeachment. The latter is a well-deliberated constitutional norm. It has to involve the Constitutional Court, the Supreme Court and the Rada. This is a complicated and lengthy procedure. It was not carried out. Therefore, from a legal perspective this is an undisputed fact."

There is a fourth way - ill health - but, aside from that, Putin is undoubtedly correct.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/ukraine-willliam-hague_b_4933177.html?&ir=UK

[Red Phoenix]

Nice find Coro, yet more evidence that the US and EU governments are just being their usual, lying, fraudulent selves. And they have the cheek to talk about "international law".

 

They're a bunch of frauds, just like the so called government that's currently in the Ukraine.

[polymerpunkah]

Does the Ukraine have a court system charged with ruling on constitional issues?

[Bobby Hundreds]

I like the way they say we will be limiting travel and asset freezing pretty soon....... So move your money and get were you need to be before any of our sanctions can effect you. Mkay love you bye.

[Red Phoenix]

[Red Phoenix]

Ukraine's gold reserves said being flown to New York Fed

 

Submitted by cpowell on Mon, 2014-03-10 19:02. Section: Daily Dispatches

 

3p ET Monday, March 10, 2014

 

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

 

Hong Kong-based fund manager William Kaye today tells King World News that Ukraine today airlifted its gold reserves, 33 tons, to New York, presumably for vaulting at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York -- and probably not to be seen again any sooner than they'd be if the Russian army had marched into Kiev to "protect" the gold before it was flown off.

 

Maybe the Ukrainian gold will constitute the New York Fed's next shipment to the German Bundesbank in Frankfurt in the great international game of golden musical chairs.

 

An excerpt from the interview is posted at the King World News blog here:

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2014/3/10_Di...

 

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer

Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

 

 

http://gata.org/node/13752

[Section_31]

 

Looks like Anakin Skywalker.

[Strontium]

Has about as much popular support as Anakin Skywalker too: his leader, Yarosh, is polling 1.6% ahead of the upcoming presidential elections.