"Kick it Out" campaign

[AngryOfTuebrook]

See your point, but I sided with the Suarez argument against evra. I'm not a racist.

Did you side with Suarez because you think Liverpool players should be able to get away with whatever behaviour, however obnoxious? Or did you side with him because Evra is a lying cunt?

 

Evra's claims were investigated and there was no evidence that Suarez said what Evra claimed. That's why I sided with Suarez.

 

John Terry aimed the phrase "fucking black cunt" at Anton Ferdinand. There is plenty of evidence of that.

 

Huge difference.

[xerxes]

the England fans were siding with their racist ex-captain.

 

Agreed.I think that was a part of it

 

The problem is that Terry was cleared of racism in a court of law.

 

Incredibly, some overestimate the sophistication of some football fans.Some just like goading in whatever way they can.

 

If you feel that this was racist chanting, your call, neither of us can prove it one way or the other.

 

The danger is that already many are happy to use the "disgracefully unpleasant" charge as a backstop. If we accept your guess that chanting against a black player might be racially motivated, then any chanting against any black player will be dangerous on the basis of what might be motivating it.

 

There is a debate to be had about what is and is not acceptable to chant. Tcreating a situation whereby chanting against black players amounts to racism because of what might be motivating that confuses the issue.

[xerxes]

Evra's claims were investigated and there was no evidence that Suarez said what Evra claimed. .

 

Luis admitted usine the word "negrito".Kenny and Comolli confirmed it.

 

I supported Luis. It was also a very good example of how rushing to judgement and making assumptions is ill advised.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Luis admitted usine the word "negrito".Kenny and Comolli confirmed it.

 

I supported Luis. It was also a very good example of how rushing to judgement and making assumptions is ill advised.

Suarez admitted the following exchange.

Evra (in English) - "Don't touch me,South American."

Suarez (in Spanish) - "Porque, negro?"

 

Dalglish, Comolli and Kuyt were unable to confirm anything. They never witnessed anything. All they could do was try to relay what Suarez had told them. I say "try" because Kuyt was relaying a conversation in Dutch, Dalglish describes his command of the language as "restaurant Spanish" and Comolli, the only supposed Spanish-speaker amongst them, interpreted that exchange as the utterly implausible

"You are South American"

"You are black"

and then spelled out for the referee a pigeon-Spanish phrase that is literlally meaningless in real Spanish. Since none of them (Comolli's claims to the contrary notwithstanding) speak Spanish to any worthwhile standard, their testimony can not be relied on to crucify a man's reputation.

 

The FA's own Spanish language experts confirmed that addressing someone as "negro" is not generally considered insulting or racist, as it would be in English (or, indeed, as addressing someone as "South American" should be considered in English).

 

The unmistakeably racist stuff that Evra claimed Suarez said was pure fiction.

 

Luis Suarez is not a racist. The FA's own report into the "reasons" for calling him guilty provide all the evidence I need. If they had found evidence of racism, I would be calling for him to be kicked out of the club, as I would with any player.

[piscinin]

Remarkable double standards going on here.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The danger is that already many are happy to use the "disgracefully unpleasant" charge as a backstop. If we accept your guess that chanting against a black player might be racially motivated, then any chanting against any black player will be dangerous on the basis of what might be motivating it.

 

There is a debate to be had about what is and is not acceptable to chant. Tcreating a situation whereby chanting against black players amounts to racism because of what might be motivating that confuses the issue.

I disagree (you'll be unsurprised to know).

 

Opposing fans chant against players and sometimes it's unpleasant. It is perfectly legitimate to question whether there are motives beyond the most obvious (that he's playing for a different team). But it does not follow that there's any risk of all chanting against black players being ascribed to racism. Even Rio Ferdinand has been targeted for chanting based on various acts of cuntishness (or just general cuntishness) but nobody has ever cried "racist" in these cases, because they have been clearly not racist.

 

This time it's different, because the only plausible explanation for England fans abusing Anton Ferdinand is that he took their racist Lionheart to court.

[xerxes]

Suarez admitted the following exchange.

Evra (in English) - "Don't touch me,South American."

Suarez (in Spanish) - "Porque, negro?"

 

Dalglish, Comolli and Kuyt were unable to confirm anything.

 

Thank you for the first para.

 

Comolli confirmed the exchange, in writing, in our submission with KK present.

 

But this isn't about our disastrous handling of the Suarez affair. It is about learning the lessons of not making assumptions and jumping on bandwaggons.

[Lee909]

I know its got nothing to do with this but

 

No fucking did Evra just say

"Don't touch me you South American "

 

Lying fucking prick

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Thank you for the first para.

 

Comolli confirmed the exchange, in writing, in our submission with KK present.

 

But this isn't about our disastrous handling of the Suarez affair. It is about learning the lessons of not making assumptions and jumping on bandwaggons.

That specific exchange (misrepresented by Comolli, because he can't speak Spanish) is not in doubt. It's one of seven charges of insulting or abusive language aggravated by reference to ethnicity or nationality that the FA's panel punished Suarez for. Five of the others were invented by Evra and unsubstantiated by anyone or anything. The seventh was "one for the pot" invented by the panel themselves and unsubstantiated even by Suarez or Evra. Read the report: it's horrifying.

 

But I don't know why you're talking about bandwagons and assumptions. All I'm saying is that there is only one explanation for people singing songs of hatred against an inoffensive no-mark like Anton Ferdinand: that they are siding with the bloke who was filmed giving him a mouthful of racist abuse.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Please don't start the Suarez-Evra discussion. Its been done to death and the whole sorry episode should just be forgotten. Its unfortunate that once again the club and our player got screwed up the arse (thanks to the club itself) but theres no point revisiting it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Please don't start the Suarez-Evra discussion. Its been done to death and the whole sorry episode should just be forgotten. Its unfortunate that once again the club and our player got screwed up the arse (thanks to the club itself) but theres no point revisiting it.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

That specific exchange (misrepresented by Comolli, because he can't speak Spanish) is not in doubt. It's one of seven charges of insulting or abusive language aggravated by reference to ethnicity or nationality that the FA's panel punished Suarez for. Five of the others were invented by Evra and unsubstantiated by anyone or anything. The seventh was "one for the pot" invented by the panel themselves and unsubstantiated even by Suarez or Evra. Read the report: it's horrifying.

 

But I don't know why you're talking about bandwagons and assumptions. All I'm saying is that there is only one explanation for people singing songs of hatred against an inoffensive no-mark like Anton Ferdinand: that they are siding with the bloke who was filmed giving him a mouthful of racist abuse.

 

People, unfortunately, are unable to compute that one incident has no bearing on the other. If you defend one 'racist' then you must be defending them all, apparently.

 

Just forget it. As Luis said, his conscience is clear - as is mine in defending him to the hilt - so theres no point sitting here discussing it.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

He started it

 

Haha, fair enough.

[xerxes]

Please don't start the Suarez-Evra discussion. Its been done to death and the whole sorry episode should just be forgotten. Its unfortunate that once again the club and our player got screwed up the arse (thanks to the club itself) but theres no point revisiting it.

 

Agreed.

[ChicagoRed]

I remember seeing a Man Utd video of players singing the Build a Bonfire song, led by Wayne Rooney, with the target being Scousers. It was pure abuse, and kind of flattering in a way! Nobody sings about Mancunians!

 

It was water off a duck's back. Scousers know they are hated by the Mancs, just as Ferdinand knows he's despised by a section of England (and other) fans. So why does he say "Wow".

 

He is just seeking to gloss his behavior with some kind of "holier than thou" hypocrisy. He is a grade A moron, self-centered, and unprincipled other than what's in it for him.

He is no standard bearer for the good side of the game! Quite the opposite!

Ignore him!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

He is a grade A moron, self-centered, and unprincipled other than what's in it for him.

He is no standard bearer for the good side of the game! Quite the opposite!

Ignore him!

A fair description of the wonky-faced gobshite, for sure. I'm more than happy to ignore him.

 

But....

Fans were chanting a racist song and I am not prepared to ignore that.

[ChicagoRed]

But were they? Or do you subscribe to the "undertones"? The "hearsay"?

 

It was mere abuse!

 

It's directed by morons at whomever they want!

 

Where's the racism?

[xerxes]

You can try and artificially make your post seem wise with a few nice words from your online thesaurus, but the simple fact is your view is wrong. ..

 

A flawed post in full.

 

JohnnyH, none of us can say for certain what was in the minds of those chanting. What I can say for certain is that your claim that I am “absolutely, 100%, clearly being wrong,” is foolish and your opinion ( fair enough), no more. An own goal on your part.

 

I am amazed by how you, and only a few others, are so suckered by the media, and have become so removed from how football crowds behave.

 

Fans will say anything to bait those whom they choose. The thought processes and motivations are nowhere near as sophisticated as you suggest.

 

I too think that Anton’s inclusion relates to the Terry case. Now was this about a matter which the Ferdinands “lost” , or was it about racism? Does England attract some pretty unsavoury racist characters? Yes. Were even they abusing Rio because he was black, or because he let England down and took the piss with his TV jaunt?

 

When the “john arne riise....I want to know how you broke Smiths' leg” was a popular chant amongst our support it was simply to bait the Mancs, it wasn’t personal, it didn’t advocate breaking legs, nor did it require John to sit down and talk us through it. Tasteless? Yes. Did people join in because it was catchy and of the moment? Yes. Did it reflect their moral standpoint on sporting injury? No. Welcome to the world of football fans.

[General Dryness]

A flawed post in full.

 

JohnnyH, none of us can say for certain what was in the minds of those chanting. What I can say for certain is that your claim that I am “absolutely, 100%, clearly being wrong,” is foolish and your opinion ( fair enough), no more. An own goal on your part.

 

I am amazed by how you, and only a few others, are so suckered by the media, and have become so removed from how football crowds behave.

 

Fans will say anything to bait those whom they choose. The thought processes and motivations are nowhere near as sophisticated as you suggest.

 

I too think that Anton’s inclusion relates to the Terry case. Now was this about a matter which the Ferdinands “lost” , or was it about racism? Does England attract some pretty unsavoury racist characters? Yes. Were even they abusing Rio because he was black, or because he let England down and took the piss with his TV jaunt?

 

When the “john arne riise....I want to know how you broke Smiths' leg” was a popular chant amongst our support it was simply to bait the Mancs, it wasn’t personal, it didn’t advocate breaking legs, nor did it require John to sit down and talk us through it. Tasteless? Yes. Did people join in because it was catchy and of the moment? Yes. Did it reflect their moral standpoint on sporting injury? No. Welcome to the world of football fans.

 

I don't know if they were being racist or not.

 

However, you are a massive massive cunt. In full.

[xerxes]

I don't know if they were being racist or not.

 

However, you are a massive massive cunt. In full.

 

Thank you for agreeing with my first point.

 

On the second, your judgement is as poor as ever. You would fit well on an England terrace.

[zigackly]

You can try and artificially make your post seem wise with a few nice words

 

If only. The wronger he is, the more shite he spouts.

[xerxes]

If only. The wronger he is, the more shite he spouts.

 

Yapping at my heels, one pace behind.;)

 

It's like kamikaze lemmings.

[zigackly]

Yapping at my heels, one pace behind.;)

 

It's like kamikaze lemmings.

 

You recently name-checked me as a good poster, so I've been working ever since to force you to confront yourself with being wrong about something.

 

It's all part of the healing process. You can be rehabilitated.

[beejay]

It's all academic anyway. Talking to a couple of lads last night who went to both games and they never heard the chant once, the whole time they were there. So it wasn't an organised thing that the England fans joined in with. There was plenty of Fuck off Rio chanting but I suppose highlighting that doesn't fit in with the moral crusade that Holt and his pathetic bunch of wanker mates want to push.

 

And the Montenegro fans were singing IRA songs to bait ours apparently, fuck knows where they got that from.

[xerxes]

The faux self righteous- indignation of some, suckered by the media, never ceases to amaze. As soon as a media bandwaggon arrives they jump on regardless.

Edited March 30, 2013 by xerxes