Racism in Southern America..

[BeefStroganoff]

16 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Mosques aren't there to honour Muhammad, the way statues are there to honour individual people.

This country is so racist it allows mosques and muslim communities to exist. Imagine that.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

To be clear, I'm absolutely fine with the statues of slavers being unceremoniously hauled down and deposited in the nearest river, but things get much more murky when we're talking about the legacies of Churchill, Gladstone, Muhammad, or just about any other significant figure in history.

As Rico said (before he made his drearily inevitable witless and snide tilt at windmills) idolising any human is daft, because we're all pretty fucked up.  Your mosque analogy doesn't work; if there were any statues of Muhammad, then they would doubtless get vandalised.  Whether I supported that or not would depend on context.  The two main concerns would be the power relationship between those who erected the statue and those who vandalised it and the purpose of erecting the statue and the purpose of vandalising it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

This country is so racist it allows mosques and muslim communities to exist. Imagine that.

Because we refrain from genocide, we can't be a racist country?

 

Yeah, OK.

[BeefStroganoff]

2 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Because we refrain from genocide, we can't be a racist country?

 

Yeah, OK.

No because we live in a country that embraces, for the most part, multiculturalism.

 

Remember that when you get your chippy tonight.

[Karl_b]

17 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

You are wrong. Its discrimination. Its the Athletic saying we haven't found anyone BAME good enough to have a job at the Athletic before, so now its ok we can give someone one as a token gesture. 

 

If you can't get a job at a company due to your skin colour, don't try and get a job there. Its the same if a company deliberately wants a female for a role but interviews men anyway, my own company does this. Its not right but it goes on. Handing out token offerings does not constitute the fact that you are getting this on merit due to your skills and/or talent.

 

What advantages have us 'whites' got by the way? The advantage of living and growing up in a poor Bootle background with parents out of work and no money? The hand me downs? My parents barely keeping a roof over our heads? 

 

Yeah very privileged. Its a crock of shit. 

 

"Journalism will be better representative of the populace if it reflects their demographics."

 

In what way? Theres already fat too many idealogical journalists as there is, not reporting on the facts and more interested in pushing narratives. Its been going on for years recently in entertainment and its fucked things up and made things worse, as people get sick of being lectured too and just end up turning off.

 

 

I'm not wrong. Neither am I fully educated on the subject but I am trying hard to learn more because it's clear to me that there's an issue and I'm trying to understand this from other people's perspective. 

 

Your individual circumstance of growing up poor in Bootle isn't the same as systemic and institutional racism. When it's proven that BAME applicants for jobs get fewer interviews, when their CVs are dismissed (consciously or subconsciously) because of their name and when they aren't getting the opportunities because of their ethnicity then there's a problem. 

 

Again, white people (as whole) are starting further up the ladder than BAME people. It isn't racism or discrimination to start on the same rung.

[BeefStroganoff]

3 minutes ago, Karl_b said:

I'm not wrong. Neithe am I fully educated on the subject but am trying hard to learn more because it's clear to me that there's an issue and I'm trying to understand this from other people's perspective. 

 

Your individual circumstance of growing up poor in Bootle isn't the same as systemic and institutional racism. When it's proven that BAME applicants for jobs get fewer interviews, when their CVs are dismissed (consciously or subconsciously) because of their name and when they aren't getting the opportunities because of their ethnicity then there's a problem. 

 

Again, white people (as whole) are starting further up the ladder than BAME people. It isn't racism or discrimination to start on the same rung.

Learn more what? That you are guilty by association if you are white? Because thats what is happening here. Im not a racist, I'm sure you arnt and most of this forum is so why do we have to be shamed into feeling guilty? Again though, I've worked in some big corps in the last 20 years and I've not seen this systemic and institutional racism you talk about as the workforce has been quite diverse considering the demographic makeup.

 

If you go back 100 or so years the world would be unrecognisable to what it is now. Fuck, the 80s is unrecognisable to now. Generations have got it wrong over the years in many areas, fixing one problem though just causes other problems. We are a corrupt being.

 

You are wrong about the poor upbringing. It takes effort, guts and determination to work your way out of that situation, no matter what your skin colour is. You don't get these things handed to you on a plate.

[Bjornebye]

26 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

To be clear, I'm absolutely fine with the statues of slavers being unceremoniously hauled down and deposited in the nearest river, but things get much more murky when we're talking about the legacies of Churchill, Gladstone, Muhammad, or just about any other significant figure in history.

Hitler pulled the German economy out of the shit, undoubtedly saving German lives in the process. Should we be 'murky' about Germany erecting a statue in his honour or is that just a straight "No"? 

[Bjornebye]

26 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

To be clear, I'm absolutely fine with the statues of slavers being unceremoniously hauled down and deposited in the nearest river, but things get much more murky when we're talking about the legacies of Churchill, Gladstone, Muhammad, or just about any other significant figure in history.

Hitler pulled the German economy out of the shit, undoubtedly saving German lives in the process. Should we be 'murky' about Germany erecting a statue in his honour or is that just a straight "No"? 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Hitler pulled the German economy out of the shit, undoubtedly saving German lives in the process. Should we be 'murky' about Germany erecting a statue in his honour or is that just a straight "No"? 

 

Putting aside the genocide for a moment, the economy of Nazi Germany was built on slave labour. So I'm going to say no, if that's alright by you.

[skend04]

Beef seems to be conflating social class struggles and racism. If a black or ethnic minority person from the same poor Bootle neighbourhood as a white person went for the same job the white person, just for being white, stands a much greater opportunity of getting an interview and the job. 

 

To point that out is not reverse racism, it's a simple, irrefutable fact that the colour of one's skin and the society they live in give certain people an advantage.

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Putting aside the genocide for a moment, the economy of Nazi Germany was built on slave labour. So I'm going to say no, if that's alright by you.

It wasn't. And oh them double-standards and hypocrisy rearing there ugly head again. Ok SD. Crack on. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

It wasn't. And oh them double-standards and hypocrisy rearing there ugly head again. Ok SD. Crack on. 

 

Are you saying it wasn't built on slave labour? And where's the double-standard?

[Karl_b]

14 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

Learn more what? That you are guilty by association if you are white? Because thats what is happening here. Im not a racist, I'm sure you arnt and most of this forum is so why do we have to be shamed into feeling guilty? Again though, I've worked in some big corps in the last 20 years and I've not seen this systemic and institutional racism you talk about as the workforce has been quite diverse considering the demographic makeup.

 

If you go back 100 or so years the world would be unrecognisable to what it is now. Fuck, the 80s is unrecognisable to now. Generations have got it wrong over the years in many areas, fixing one problem though just causes other problems. We are a corrupt being.

 

You are wrong about the poor upbringing. It takes effort, guts and determination to work your way out of that situation, no matter what your skin colour is. You don't get these things handed to you on a plate.

You're completely missing the point, either intentionally or not, which sort of proves the point. The people affected by this are saying there's a problem but rather than listen to them we say "nah mate, not my issue I'm not privileged."

 

1. It's not about guilt by association, it's about recognising that not every body has the same opportunities. Yours and my opinion of "not a problem" isn't the whole truth. As white people we don't know for sure that that's the case. We can't profess to know how it feels not to be white, but perhaps we can listen to others and hope to understand a little better?

 

2. I'm not saying that isn't the case for being poor but your specific individual circumstance isn't the same as systemic racism. The structures that create poverty, the disaster capitalism and lack of support for poor communities are clearly an obvious problem. But why does it have to be one or the other? Haven't we had enough of 'whataboutism'? Can't we accept that creating equal opportunity for people from poor and/or BAME communities, and women, isn't a binary choice? Isn't it ok to give people equal opportunities? If we lived in an idealistic meritocracy then your point would stand but we don't; unfortunately skin colour, ethnicity, sex, gender, etc are still influencing society. It's the same as "all lives matter", yes, yes they do but right now some of those lives need help. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Are you saying it wasn't built on slave labour? And where's the double-standard?

Slave Labour was used during WWII. The economy had already been saved from how bad it was in the 20's. 

 

The double standards come from saying its ok for someone responsible for mass murder to have a statue but not someone else responsible for mass murder. Coming from a Netanyahu fan-boy though I'm not surprised in the slightest. You also advocated the Thatcher statue so if ever anything summed one person up.... Vile. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Slave Labour was used during WWII. The economy had already been saved from how bad it was in the 20's. 

 

The double standards come from saying its ok for someone responsible for mass murder to have a statue but not someone else responsible for mass murder. Coming from a Netanyahu fan-boy though I'm not surprised in the slightest. You also advocated the Thatcher statue so if ever anything summed one person up.... Vile. 

 

Words fail me.

[TheHowieLama]

2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I love a bit of black face, me. 

 

 

One of the great comedy scenes ever.

"We'll make it past the cops, I just hope we don't see no Muslims."

[M_B]

How do we feel about Papa Lazarou? Will the League of Gentlemen survive the cull?

[Section_31]

14 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Beef seems to be conflating social class struggles and racism. If a black or ethnic minority person from the same poor Bootle neighbourhood as a white person went for the same job the white person, just for being white, stands a much greater opportunity of getting an interview and the job. 

 

To point that out is not reverse racism, it's a simple, irrefutable fact that the colour of one's skin and the society they live in give certain people an advantage.

It's an interesting point, but I do wonder if class plays a bigger part in the UK than it does in the USA. 

 

My mate and me had similar upbringings, he's black and I'm white, neither of us came from a family with a pot to piss in and sort of dragged our way up. Interestingly, he thinks class is the biggest barrier he's faced in Britain, he actually gets quite worked up about the fact so much money is put into, for instance, getting girls to take up STEM careers etc, he's actually had books published on the subject. Did I have an advantage over him when it came to stuff like going to college, getting jobs etc because I was white? Or is someone who's middle class, moneyed and connected likely to leave both of us trailing in their wake? 

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Words fail me.

Convenient. 

[Red Phoenix]

All lives matter is fucking comical. "All Lives Matter!" Yeah I know, that's exactly why I support Black Lives Matter.

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Red Phoenix said:

All lives matter is fucking comical. "All Lives Matter!" Yeah I know, that's exactly why I support Black Lives Matter.

Not all lives apparently , some more than others. 

[Strontium]

5 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Convenient. 

 

I mean, one minute you're saying comparing anyone to Hitler is stupid, the next minute you're comparing Churchill to Hitler.

 

Then you describe me as a Netanyahu fan-boy, which, if you've seen what I've written about him on here, is a straight-up lie.

 

Go back to bed.

[Karl_b]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It's an interesting point, but I do wonder if class plays a bigger part in the UK than it does in the USA. 

 

My mate and me had similar upbringings, he's black and I'm white, neither of us came from a family with a pot to piss in and sort of dragged our way up. Interestingly, he thinks class is the biggest barrier he's faced in Britain, he actually gets quite worked up about the fact so much money is put into, for instance, getting girls to take up STEM careers etc, he's actually had books published on the subject. Did I have an advantage over him when it came to stuff like going to college, getting jobs etc because I was white? Or is someone who's middle class, moneyed and connected likely to leave both of us trailing in their wake? 

It's not either/or though Section. Your final point is accurate but we can be addressing that whilst also acknowledging that prejudices exist that mean if one of two people is black then, with everything else equal, they are more likely to be overlooked for a white person.

[Strontium]

8 minutes ago, M_B said:

How do we feel about Papa Lazarou? Will the League of Gentlemen survive the cull?

 

Tricky one. One the one hand, it's a white guy in blackface, but on the other, he has a wife called Dave, which is very now.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I mean, one minute you're saying comparing anyone to Hitler is stupid, the next minute you're comparing Churchill to Hitler.

 

Then you describe me as a Netanyahu fan-boy, which, if you've seen what I've written about him on here, is a straight-up lie.

 

Go back to bed.

Im not comparing Hitler to Churchill I'm suggesting that you claiming some statues of mass murderers are wrong and others "it becomes murky" is hypocritical. But you know that. 

 

I can't recall what you've written about him to be honest but given your usual stuff when it comes that part of the world I could imagine its sexual. If it isn't then I apologise for getting it wrong about you and Netanyahu.