Grenfall Tower Fire

[Rico1304]

You could easily say that x number of people lived in the flats and x number of people have been accounted for. Both numbers might change a bit but people would have an idea. I understand that they thought that not releasing numbers might help to calm the situation, but now it's creating even more suspicion and mistrust

At least you could do that if you had set up some support services for the survivors and had an idea of where the people who got out were

People will have been on holiday, out at work all sorts. If the number was yo-yoing wouldn't that feed the conspiracy?

[Cardie]

Yeah, it's one of the stranger angles for me as well - the number of people either suggesting the fire was a deliberate act of social cleansing or the numbers are being suppressed.  I don't agree with either of these things.  But in the absence of actual leadership (the tories seem to be much more concerned with managing their own crisis, rather than the tragedy itself) people will look to fill the vacuum.

 

That Mr Barwell blanking every and any reporter is getting especially annoying. Potential suppression of a housing report into high-rise developments, while also MP for Croydon (which has had a lot of significant developments over the last couple of years - it's on the route into London from mine, I've been watching them go up) is extremely concerning.

 

It plays right into the council/governments hands.

 

If they blame us for what we aren't doing it stops them from blaming us for what we did.

[PestiRed]

People will have been on holiday, out at work all sorts. If the number was yo-yoing wouldn't that feed the conspiracy?

Not if you had total residents and number accounted for. It wouldn't be completely accurate as you might have visitors, guests etc. Holidays, people not in the building would all increase the number accounted for as they found them. It would be much better than this void of information

[Cardie]

Not if you had total residents and number accounted for. It wouldn't be completely accurate as you might have visitors, guests etc. Holidays, people not in the building would all increase the number accounted for as they found them. It would be much better than this void of information

 

The void of information that is declaring people dead as they are found, identified and families informed?

 

I'd understand your point if they weren't updating the information daily and dogmatically sticking a to a line that there were very few casualties but the tone has most definitely been one of 'this shit is bad, we just don't know how bad, but make no mistake the figure we tell you today won't be the figure tomorrow or the day after'. 

[Rico1304]

Not if you had total residents and number accounted for. It wouldn't be completely accurate as you might have visitors, guests etc. Holidays, people not in the building would all increase the number accounted for as they found them. However it would be much better than this void of information

So people want a number, even if it's the wrong number?

[PestiRed]

The void of information that is declaring people dead as they are found, identified and families informed?

That's going to take weeks and won't help matters. No one is suggesting that names should be released or deaths confirmed before identification, just a number of people currently unaccounted for

[PestiRed]

So people want a number, even if it's the wrong number?

Number of people living in the flats - known

Number of people accounted for - known (you would hope)

What is particularly difficult about that?

[Guest Pistonbroke]

You could easily say that x number of people lived in the flats and x number of people have been accounted for. Both numbers might change a bit but people would have an idea. I understand that they thought that not releasing numbers might help to calm the situation, but now it's creating even more suspicion and mistrust

 

At least you could do that if you had set up some support services for the survivors and had an idea of where the people who got out were

 

Whatever happened to the usual line of "X amount missing and presumed to be dead?" As morbid as it is and extremely uncomfortable circumstances the public, especially those immediately affected, have a right to know. 

[Pidge]

People want an expectation set, it's natural for people to seek at least a range of expectation.  Even guidance on how long it might take is better than nothing, creating a sword of Damocles for the families just waiting for the blow. It's very difficult as it's got to come from people who know (i.e. not politicians), but the mis-steps of those politicians (and the fact the information is being filtered through politicians who maybe are concerned at how this information will be received - considering the volatility of the situation) is making it much harder to get any clear message out.

 

Must be fucking agony for the families and friends of the inhabitants though.  Sheer purgatory.

[Rico1304]

Number of people living in the flats - known

Number of people accounted for - known (you would hope)

What is particularly difficult about that?

From what I'm seeing on Twitter they don't know how many people lived in the flats as there were lots there unofficially.

 

So if they say 300, and then there are 500 it looks terrible. Although I guess after 3 days there won't be much chance of ever identifying the dead.

 

Just seen the May interview- horrific.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I see that mongrel BJ has accused Labour of political game playing, the man is a fucking imbecile. 

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

From what I'm seeing on Twitter they don't know how many people lived in the flats as there were lots there unofficially.

 

So if they say 300, and then there are 500 it looks terrible. Although I guess after 3 days there won't be much chance of ever identifying the dead.

 

Just seen the May interview- horrific.

 

This was from 2 days ago:

 

Police revealed today that they have received around 400 calls reporting people missing following the Grenfell Tower fire.

 

During a short appearance, Metropolitan Police Commander Stuart Cundy confirmed that there had been hundreds of calls following the launch of a criminal investigation.

 

He downplayed the figure, saying it added up to more people than actually lived in the block.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/400-people-were-reported-missing-grenfell-tower-fire-6712039/#ixzz4kGLVjtB6

 

Imagine if there any on top of that that haven't been reported missing?

 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-fire-grenfell-tower-company-asks-donations-victims-money-fndraise-kensington-chelsea-tenant-a7790371.html

 

Private company responsible for Grenfell Tower maintenance asks public to donate money to help fire victims

Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation faces tough questions over whether residents' concerns over fire safety were listened to

 

The company responsible for managing the Grenfell Tower block that was engulfed by fire is asking the public to help cover the cost of supporting the victims of the blaze.

Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), which is facing accusations over alleged safety failings at the 24-story tower, has asked people to donate to a fund set up by a local charity to help those affected by the fire. 

The company claimed “every penny raised will go to those affected” but did not say if it would be donating any more itself. Critics have suggested it should not be relying on public donations to help tenants who have lost homes and belongings and, in some cases, family and friends.

The Independent has contacted KCTMO for comment. The company said in an earlier statement that it was “doing everything it can to assist the residents of Grenfell Tower”.

Twelve people are confirmed to have died in the fire and almost 80 are being treated in hospital, 18 of them in critical care. Police said they expected the death toll to rise. 

KCTMO is accused of failing to ensure the safety of tenants in the tower block. The company was reviewing the building’s fire safety policy at the time of the fire.

It emerged in the hours after the incident that residents had repeatedly raised concerns about the building’s fire safety. The Grenfell Action Group, a campaign group set up by residents, warned last year: “It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO.”

Reports suggest the building was covered in flammable cladding in order to make it look nicer to people in nearby luxury homes. 

Although the tower underwent a £10.3m renovation that was completed in May 2016, it continued to have just one emergency exit, which residents had warned would become blocked in the case of a fire.

The building contained 120 flats and was home to more than 200 people.

KCTMO described the fire as a “tragedy” and said it was wrong to speculate about what caused it.

“We wish to repeat our sincere and heartfelt condolences to all those who have been affected as a result of this devastating event at Grenfell Tower”, the company said in a statement “We also wish to pay tribute to the bravery of the emergency services and to those members of the public who continue to selflessly do all they can to assist. 

“The events of last night and early this morning are a tragedy. KCTMO, in conjunction with RBKC and others, is doing everything it can to assist the residents of Grenfell Tower and those affected by the tragedy. This will remain our immediate concern and focus.

“It is too early to speculate what caused the fire and contributed to its spread. We will co-operate fully with all the relevant authorities in order to ascertain the cause of this tragedy. 

“We are aware that concerns have been raised historically by residents. We always take all concerns seriously and these will form part of our forthcoming investigations. While these investigations continue with our co-operation, our core priority at the moment is our residents.”

[clangers]

From what I'm seeing on Twitter they don't know how many people lived in the flats as there were lots there unofficially.

 

So if they say 300, and then there are 500 it looks terrible. Although I guess after 3 days there won't be much chance of ever identifying the dead.

 

Just seen the May interview- horrific.

Just pass on the information they're working on at this point. There were estimates for 9/11 released pretty quickly then revised up and down as they learnt more. It's just creating suspicion and confusion not to do so.

[Pidge]

It's quite a pernicious little turn of phrase isn't it? May did the same thing as KCTMO try above, talk about "what caused the fire" - slyly, in the sense of discouraging looking at the root cause itself ("not helping anyone to isolate individuals").  Totally ignore the fact that the issue is how a local fire can spread to an entire tower block without the opportunity to effectively evacuate the residents, not the exact root cause - despite how some tabloids tried to twist things in that direction.

[clangers]

Tories are already trying to knock this into the long grass, say as little as possible and hope this passes. An inquiry might take years to return. They have their own community of sitting landlords to look after. I'm expecting the remit of the inquiry to start at 12.50am on the night of the disaster.

[G Richards]

There's a range of answers to what caused the fire, and all things should be declared and out in the open. 

 

If there was an electrical fault, or a fault with a fridge or whatever, then certainly that should be in play. But if there was a decision made somewhere along the way to not have fire extinguishers, or sprinkler systems, or to buy this cladding and not that cladding, then equally all those things should be out in the open too. 

 

There's a lot of anger and I thought the fella on RT was spot on. 

 

Corbyn's letter is good too - the scope of the inquiry needs to be wide enough to do a thorough job. Nothing will bring back the dead, but some compassion, care and immediate compensation for daily needs should have been sorted out immediately. It might take a little more thought to temporarily house several hundred people, but it can be done. Then beyond that the inquiry needs to get to the bottom of everything, provide proper compensation to those affected, and put steps in place to minimize the likelihood of something like this happening again. 

 

Very sad business the whole thing. 

[Arl arse]

There's a range of answers to what caused the fire, and all things should be declared and out in the open. 

 

If there was an electrical fault, or a fault with a fridge or whatever, then certainly that should be in play. But if there was a decision made somewhere along the way to not have fire extinguishers, or sprinkler systems, or to buy this cladding and not that cladding, then equally all those things should be out in the open too. 

 

There's a lot of anger and I thought the fella on RT was spot on. 

 

Corbyn's letter is good too - the scope of the inquiry needs to be wide enough to do a thorough job. Nothing will bring back the dead, but some compassion, care and immediate compensation for daily needs should have been sorted out immediately. It might take a little more thought to temporarily house several hundred people, but it can be done. Then beyond that the inquiry needs to get to the bottom of everything, provide proper compensation to those affected, and put steps in place to minimize the likelihood of something like this happening again. 

 

Very sad business the whole thing.

 

Exactly Rev.

[Carvalho Diablo]

Yeah, it's one of the stranger angles for me as well - the number of people either suggesting the fire was a deliberate act of social cleansing or the numbers are being suppressed.  I don't agree with either of these things.  But in the absence of actual leadership (the tories seem to be much more concerned with managing their own crisis, rather than the tragedy itself) people will look to fill the vacuum.

 

That Mr Barwell blanking every and any reporter is getting especially annoying. Potential suppression of a housing report into high-rise developments, while also MP for Croydon (which has had a lot of significant developments over the last couple of years - it's on the route into London from mine, I've been watching them go up) is extremely concerning.

Go to jail, directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect £200.

[FanchesterCity]

If you can get a sprinkler system installed for £200k in a 24 story building with over 120 rooms - then their either selling themselves way short, or they're Nigerian, so don't put down a deposit. 

You'd be looking for two diesel pumps and one electric, a building to house them, hundreds of yards of 8-10" pipe to take the volume, then stand sprinkler pipe, then the logistics of erecting all of this externally(safety first of course), then the fitting to the internal building and the then cosmetic clean up as you have to site through every room and hang it in the middle of the room. £200k? that would probably get you to 8th floor at best.  

 

I work in the industry, but I am quoting the figures BAFSA and papers have been using. A retrofit would be more expensive than a new build, but the tanks and pump/s are usually housed with the rest of the plumbing rather than a dedicated building (but yes, the size of that room, or building would have to take into account the sprinkler pump and tank.

 

The pipe would be a 2 inch main up the riser, then a 1.25 inch or 1 inch feed into each apartment which would then feed around 10 heads per apartment. The systems are only designed to cater for about 4 - 6 heads activating, so there's no need for high volumes of water. Normal sprinklers act similar to a really good jetwash, and 'mist' sprinklers create a higher pressure, lower volume 'mist' water spray (but are more expensive, but cause less water damage). There's no 8 inch pipe stuff... not even close.  Some cowboy firms might bid at 200K, but yes, you're right, it's very optimistic at that price - I only used that figure based on the paper talk and to illustrate the issue even at super low prices.

 

Then there's the other issue... sprinkler installers are not regulated. There are no qualifications required to install them. Good sprinkler companies will of course accurate calculate the required volumes of water, pressure and flow, along with the positioning of the heads (crucial) - you can't just put lots of sprinklers in a system either as the spray patterns interfere with each other if you have them too close to each other.

 

They basically help to keep a single fire in check (and if lucky extinguish it) for 30 minutes or so. If there are two sources of ignition, they probably wouldn't cope. If the sprinkler pipe is ruptured by collapse, or explosion, then it's pretty much game over.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Police are now saying 58 people missing and presumed dead in addition to the 30 already that have been declared as dead.

 

10 also in critical condition in hospital.

[FanchesterCity]

At present, the cladding's getting all the stick, but in reality, this is a systemic failure...

 

Had the cladding alone been a problem, then yes, the fire would have risen up the cladding - but this needn't have been catastrophic. But the fire made its way inside the building (probably facilitated by open windows). At this point, smoke / heat detectors and the fire alarm ought to have functioned. As far as I know, it's yet to be fully discovered how the fire system did (or did not) respond. There's anecdotal evidence, and that may well be all the inquiry has to go on.

 

But without doubt, other elements have failed here too. The cladding is in danger of being a real scapegoat to cover up other issues. 

[FanchesterCity]

I can tell you that most new builds AND refurbs I've worked on 'try' to incorporate fire stopping (trying to prevent smoke leakage between rooms) but almost every build I've seen there are breaches, or shoddy workmanship. Plumbing, Electrics, Data, HVACV and Sprinklers all go through party walls, and invariable one of them won't have fire stopped, and often plaster board is put up on the ceiling (covering the issue). Often the electricians / plumbers etc INTENDED to fire stop, but were later prevented from doing so when the plasterboard goes up, and then there's a pressure to complete the building, and it gets skipped (perhaps not in all rooms, but certainly in some).

 

Also, people will drill through party walls then change the routing of pipework or cabling, and just leave the holes... so the NEW holes are firestopped, but nothing is done about the old ones.

 

There's also an issue (to my mind) with the assumption that a stairwell doesn't need protection as it's deemed a safe area. Imagine a real fire... with 200 people trying to evacuate... the doors to the stairwell are NOT going to remain shut... they are going to be open, which then facilitates smoke getting into the stairwells. I've never understood why this has never been addressed (if it has, I don't know the logic behind it and firefighters will confirm stairwells full of smoke)

[Boss]

I see that mongrel BJ has accused Labour of political game playing, the man is a fucking imbecile. 

 

Yeah, the man who a week ago was accusing Corbyn of being an IRA sympathiser. It's all political. The cuts to social housing. The cuts to the fire service. The fact that the council are more obsessed with the cladding on the outside of a building because the affluent people in the area might complain about it than the safety of the people inside of it. It's a disgrace. 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Yeah, the man who a week ago was accusing Corbyn of being an IRA sympathiser. It's all political. The cuts to social housing. The cuts to the fire service. The fact that the council are more obsessed with the cladding on the outside of a building because the affluent people in the area might complain about it than the safety of the people inside of it. It's a disgrace. 

 

Yep, I wonder how those water cannons are getting on, the ones he spunked a fortune on!